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Pretty much everything said about the Millennium Falcon in the story could be handled just as well by Han Solo having a trait to invoke or a point to spend in order to get a bonus in that situation. Looking at big lists of ships, determining the best one and buying it, not so much. Which also makes it feel samey--there's only one Millennium Falcon even if there are a bunch of that type of freighter. That doesn't mean that lots of bells and whistles for building gear can't be fun or useful, I'm just not a fan of filler tables. Fragged Empire gets it right.
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Sep 8, 2016 16:18
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Brainiac Five posted:Should probably make it more explicit of a rule that disagreeing with people is bad posting then. I'm just saying, we got a Star Wars game thread to argue about Star Wars in, this thread is the Far West mock thread and industry chat.
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Sep 8, 2016 16:20
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dwarf74 posted:If all you care about is emulating the movies, sure, of course. So just because something is tradition then it must always be that way? I'm not against people getting into gear tables and obsessing over stats and weapon mods, even if I think that totally ruins all the things that make Star Wars fun. FFG puts out exceptional products, and many people enjoy them quite a bit. My brother has run an EotE campaign for years (though he ignores about half the rules). I just wish there was something modern and official that was more about genre emulation and nailing the atmosphere and feel of Star Wars. I make do translating the setting over to systems I enjoy, though.
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Sep 8, 2016 16:21
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Equipment buying is probably the most metagamed part of any system because your character isn't going to have the same out-of-game knowledge access you do. If gun A is mechanically superior to gun B, players will consistently pick A over B. Even if gun B would be more consistent with your character's character. So why not just have generic stats for "gun" and let people fluff it how they like?
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Sep 8, 2016 16:22
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Well that's why you always play someone whose a gun nerd like Naked Snake.
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Sep 8, 2016 16:25
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Serf posted:So just because something is tradition then it must always be that way?
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Sep 8, 2016 16:27
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I think it's actually fairly antithetical to genre emulation to have your game consist of reshuffling things that happened in a piece of media. Because you're not engaging with genre, you're not even engaging with the media itself, you're engaging with TVTropes.
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Sep 8, 2016 16:29
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Brainiac Five posted:Saying "consumerism is about the desire for material goods for instrumental purposes" is naive. It would behoove you to go beyond Econ 101 and Marxism 99. Um, when did I say that? You're literally putting words in my mouth. I just said that RPGs don't got good barter rules because nobody was willing to do research on how barter works (and by the way there is evidence of pre-currency (such as the agricultural towns who traded with the nomadic pastorals of the Neolithic), and even pre-agricultural societies, things don't just spring into existence fully formed). I didn't mention Marxism at all. Please stop having arguments that only exist in your head on the forums.
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Sep 8, 2016 16:32
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moths posted:Equipment buying is probably the most metagamed part of any system because your character isn't going to have the same out-of-game knowledge access you do.
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Sep 8, 2016 16:33
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Gear porn is awesome.
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Sep 8, 2016 16:35
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I'm still amazed that lightsaber mods are a thing. I mean, I know why they exist as part of the FFG game, but they also do not jive with the Star Wars universe. This reminds me of how people used to try and codify lightsaber colors pre-PT as if they denoted ranks or something despite there being absolutely nothing to support that in the movies.
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Sep 8, 2016 16:38
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Serf posted:So just because something is tradition then it must always be that way? In that sense, the new trend towards rules light narrative games is more the outlier, and maybe an indication that the hobby is growing and broadening its appeal. But those of us that do enjoy the lighter games shouldn't be surprised when publishers (especially big ones) will tend to stick more closely to "the way things have always been done". They're in the game to make money after all.
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Sep 8, 2016 16:43
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LatwPIAT posted:Gear porn is awesome. Unironically this. Serf posted:I'm still amazed that lightsaber mods are a thing. I mean, I know why they exist as part of the FFG game, but they also do not jive with the Star Wars universe. This reminds me of how people used to try and codify lightsaber colors pre-PT as if they denoted ranks or something despite there being absolutely nothing to support that in the movies. I was fourteen and that scene where Corran Horn wins his duel with the Yuuzhan Vong by twisting his lightsabre hilt to tap into a different Corusca gem that changed the blade's length was cool, okay?
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Sep 8, 2016 16:47
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Kwyndig posted:Um, when did I say that? You're literally putting words in my mouth. I just said that RPGs don't got good barter rules because nobody was willing to do research on how barter works (and by the way there is evidence of pre-currency (such as the agricultural towns who traded with the nomadic pastorals of the Neolithic), and even pre-agricultural societies, things don't just spring into existence fully formed). I didn't mention Marxism at all. Please stop having arguments that only exist in your head on the forums. People have known how economies without money work for a century or so. They don't run on barter. In fact, knowledge of their existence has led to the division of economies into exchange economies and non-exchange economies like gift and tributary economies. People have known that economies worked without currency for much longer, since the invention of currency was understood as a historical event.
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Sep 8, 2016 16:50
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Terrible Opinions posted:Because you legitimately truly enjoy all the fiddly little numbers. You don't just have guns A and B you have gun's A1 through Z56. I understand how that's an aspect that certain players love to engage. What I'm saying is that it has too much prominence in games. It takes the focus off the "big picture" by encouraging and rewarding time spent on gun minutia.
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Sep 8, 2016 16:50
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Also, rethinking things, I'm not sure why people are complaining about the gear lists in EotE (which are kind of annoying to have to parse through if that's not your thing, but can still mostly be ignored as was mentioned) when the real genre killer is the brutal lethality.
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Sep 8, 2016 16:52
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ImpactVector posted:Also, rethinking things, I'm not sure why people are complaining about the gear lists in EotE (which are kind of annoying to have to parse through if that's not your thing, but can still mostly be ignored as was mentioned) when the real genre killer is the brutal lethality. There are a great many things wrong with FFG's Star Wars imo, most of which stems from being a warmed-over rehash of their Warhammer game. Crit tables in a Star Wars game, yeesh. gradenko_2000 posted:I was fourteen and that scene where Corran Horn wins his duel with the Yuuzhan Vong by twisting his lightsabre hilt to tap into a different Corusca gem that changed the blade's length was cool, okay? Of all the many great things Disney has done for Star Wars (mainly making more of it), blowing up the old EU is truly their crowning achievement.
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Sep 8, 2016 16:56
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Feng Shui is a pretty good example of a consumerist approach in that the differences between guns are almost entirely about branding rather than instrumental purpose.
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Sep 8, 2016 16:58
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Serf posted:There are a great many things wrong with FFG's Star Wars imo, most of which stems from being a warmed-over rehash of their Warhammer game. Crit tables in a Star Wars game, yeesh. Aw geez, that sounds bad, yeah. Also, I literally cheered when they blew up the EU, so much of that stuff was garbage.
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Sep 8, 2016 17:01
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Thank god the megacorporation told me what stories were real fake and which ones were double fake.
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Sep 8, 2016 17:03
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Edge of the Empire is cool and good and fun to play
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Sep 8, 2016 17:05
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Brainiac Five posted:Feng Shui is a pretty good example of a consumerist approach in that the differences between guns are almost entirely about branding rather than instrumental purpose. Feng Shui 2 is probably the best RPG on the market right now.
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Sep 8, 2016 17:08
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Age of Rebellion isn't great and I don't think that the FFG SW RPG does those kind of campaigns well. Also their campaign book for it is garbage.
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Sep 8, 2016 17:19
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Brainiac Five posted:More of the Star Wars movies (4) make customizing a vehicle a significant plot point than ones which are "pulp adventures" (1, by adding fractional elements together). It seems that tricking out your starship is more Star Wars than reenacting Flash Gordon but wallpapering over the racism. a) Pulp is not camp. b) None of the Star Wars films involve Han Solo agonising for 16 hours over the Millenium Falcon's upgrade catalogue and having lengthy idiotic arguments about whether turbolaser swivel assembly model 789747857M is better than turbolaser swivel assembly 789747857N.
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Sep 8, 2016 17:43
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People like different things in games and find different things fun.
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Sep 8, 2016 17:52
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Serf posted:There are a great many things wrong with FFG's Star Wars imo, most of which stems from being a warmed-over rehash of their Warhammer game. Crit tables in a Star Wars game, yeesh. Yeah, god knows, Star Wars isn't known for having horrible maiming injuries and dismemberment as a frequent th...wait.
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Sep 8, 2016 17:53
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Brainiac Five posted:Thank god the megacorporation told me what stories were real fake and which ones were double fake. 
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Sep 8, 2016 17:56
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unseenlibrarian posted:Yeah, god knows, Star Wars isn't known for having horrible maiming injuries and dismemberment as a frequent th...wait. I know, right? Remember that part where Leia got shot in the face and couldn't brain good until she'd had a few days of rest? Limbs getting cut off is a nice thematic element, and totally something that would work if the GM and players were up for it. What we don't need is a Warhammer 40K-esque table of all the possible things that could happen to you because of an unlucky dice roll. It's Star Wars, I don't need a chart to tell me if a limb getting removed would be dramatically appropriate.
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Sep 8, 2016 17:58
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unseenlibrarian posted:Yeah, god knows, Star Wars isn't known for having horrible maiming injuries and dismemberment as a frequent th...wait.
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Sep 8, 2016 17:59
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Of all the things I don't miss about the Star Wars EU, "If a lightsaber is cool, two lightsabers is cooler and a weird light-whatever is even cooler than that" is way up there. Sometimes it's fun for a setting to be packed with a caffeinated tweenager's idea of what's cool, but tweenagers also have a lot of tediously stupid ideas.
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Sep 8, 2016 18:05
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Serf posted:I know, right? Remember that part where Leia got shot in the face and couldn't brain good until she'd had a few days of rest? And other folks might not have your finely honed sense of when it would be appropriate to get your hand whacked off and would prefer to have guidelines, so you know, different strokes.
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Sep 8, 2016 18:06
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Well, if you're writing a game about most fictional licenses, pretty soon after the corebook + overflow book you pretty much have to start delving into minutae. Unless you're doing something like the Star Wars EU or Marvel Comics with a ridiculous amount of continuity (presuming your license gives you access to all of that and not just a smaller chunk) pretty soon you'll find yourself trying to write 40,000 words on this one world that shows up for 3 minutes of a 90 minute feature or writing 1,000 words on this one gun that shows up in this one scene on a guy's belt but never gets used. Game lines, presuming you're not just doing robust mechanical crunch, require a farcical amount of material to keep going past a few books, whether that's equipment or worlds or how exciting the Dejarik tournament scene is, no really- I mean, something like the Buffy game had to expand the setting into alternate fanfic nonsense just to get four books and it had five seasons - that's like 75 hours of material - to draw from. If there was a monster or character in that show, it got covered, and they still ran out of material pretty fast. RPGs are weird. Edit: Of course, the catch is if you pay for a license, you'll want to do multiple books for it to pay for the license - ideally, anyway... Alien Rope Burn fucked around with this message at 18:14 on Sep 8, 2016 |
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Sep 8, 2016 18:12
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What is a Star Wars, anyways?
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Sep 8, 2016 18:12
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I'm a huge star wars dork and in.my ealier years, I would now and then browse wookiepedia for fun. Now that you're all warned to disregard my opinion, he it is: Personalization and customization are cool and rad. Sure, the fact that the milennium falcon is customized is mostly just set dressing and narrative justification, but it also serves to make it his, and if I were playing a star wars smugler or pilot, i'd totally want to have a customized ship. In fate, that'd be an aspect or an extra, in something more crunchy, it'd have more fiddly bits. Similarly, personalizing lightsabers is cool and rad, and certainly commonplace in the movies, and the creation of lightsabers seems to be important to the jedi and the sith both. I could totally see a custom lightsaber or a special crystal be a cool and good plotpoint. Given that we've seen shot, long, guarded and double lightsabers in the movies already, that seems totallyy reasonable as options in a game.
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Sep 8, 2016 18:16
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Alien Rope Burn posted:Well, if you're writing a game about most fictional licenses, pretty soon after the corebook + overflow book you pretty much have to start delving into minutae. Unless you're doing something like the Star Wars EU or Marvel Comics with a ridiculous amount of continuity (presuming your license gives you access to all of that and not just a smaller chunk) pretty soon you'll find yourself trying to write 40,000 words on this one world that shows up for 3 minutes of a 90 minute feature or writing 1,000 words on this one gun that shows up in this one scene on a guy's belt but never gets used. Game lines, presuming you're not just doing robust mechanical crunch, require a farcical amount of material to keep going past a few books, whether that's equipment or worlds or how exciting the Dejarik tournament scene is, no really- To be fair the Buffy line had the license pulled before it released like 3 more books on actual setting stuff, including actual core-ish stuff like "The Watchers" and "The Initiative". As I understand it they were actually in approvals before the alternate setting stuff and just took a lot longer to develop because you know, the person at Fox/Mutant Enemy doing approvals actually caring about core material instead of the fanfic stuff in the Slayer's handbook. So it was either "Publish this alternate setting with awkwardly stereotyped native spirit totem warriors so there can be super-powered guy characters for everyone gripey about the slayer being a girl" or "Not publish anything until the approvals and playtesting is done" unseenlibrarian fucked around with this message at 18:19 on Sep 8, 2016 |
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Sep 8, 2016 18:17
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Lemon-Lime posted:a) Pulp is not camp. Well, if you're going to be that dishonest about it, I don't see why I should bother to correlate posts to what people actually say. Maybe I could assume that your ideal licensed RPG consists of sitting in a circle and quoting the original material and the only rules are an elaborate flowchart of what you can quote and when. As long as we're taking a bizarre and excessively uncharitable interpretation of what the other person is saying.
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Sep 8, 2016 18:19
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Alien Rope Burn posted:Well, if you're writing a game about most fictional licenses, pretty soon after the corebook + overflow book you pretty much have to start delving into minutae. Unless you're doing something like the Star Wars EU or Marvel Comics with a ridiculous amount of continuity (presuming your license gives you access to all of that and not just a smaller chunk) pretty soon you'll find yourself trying to write 40,000 words on this one world that shows up for 3 minutes of a 90 minute feature or writing 1,000 words on this one gun that shows up in this one scene on a guy's belt but never gets used. Game lines, presuming you're not just doing robust mechanical crunch, require a farcical amount of material to keep going past a few books, whether that's equipment or worlds or how exciting the Dejarik tournament scene is, no really-
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Sep 8, 2016 18:29
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unseenlibrarian posted:To be fair the Buffy line had the license pulled before it released like 3 more books on actual setting stuff, including actual core-ish stuff like "The Watchers" and "The Initiative". As I understand it they were actually in approvals before the alternate setting stuff and just took a lot longer to develop because you know, the person at Fox/Mutant Enemy doing approvals actually caring about core material instead of the fanfic stuff in the Slayer's handbook. So it was either "Publish this alternate setting with awkwardly stereotyped native spirit totem warriors so there can be super-powered guy characters for everyone gripey about the slayer being a girl" or "Not publish anything until the approvals and playtesting is done" Well, yeah. At the same time, if they managed to publish the rest minus the original material, they'd have 5, 6 books at best? If Angel hadn't been cut off so soon, probably more like 10-12, probably with a whole sourcebook on Connor's crosstime hell adventures or something. But it doesn't do much to change my point that it's hard to squeeze material out of an established property without either delving into fandom minutae (remember the awful "What's His Story?" ad line for Star Wars d20?) or spinning poo poo out of whole cloth (i.e. most of WEG's Star Wars line). You can do adventures, sure, but those are of limited appeal compared to all the details on that demon that showed up in that one episode, the one that turned out to actually be really tiny, remember that, you could put tiny demon in an adventure, it'll be funny twice! Honest! But people will actually buy a lot more copies of Tiny Demon Bestiary over Travails of the Tiny Demon, in the end.
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Sep 8, 2016 18:58
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I guess I'll pop in and say that customized lightsabers are still canon post-EU purge. The mini-arc in the Clone Wars 3-D TV series, which is still canon, dedicated to establishing how each lightsaber is unique to each jedi and even talking about the little bits that make them unique is still there. Anyhoo, I really think this is one big non-argument. The fact is, games are about having fun and that means different things to different people. When you make a game, you should make something you want to play yourself instead of trying to hit some objective "fun" or something like that. So, if people like crunchier systems, they're going to make that if that's what they're passionate about. It's also hard to argue if one style of game is better than another as it really comes down to taste. It's easy to argue for what you prefer, but that doesn't mean its true for everyone or objective. Covok fucked around with this message at 20:13 on Sep 8, 2016 |
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Sep 8, 2016 20:07
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unseenlibrarian posted:And other folks might not have your finely honed sense of when it would be appropriate to get your hand whacked off and would prefer to have guidelines, so you know, different strokes. Like I said, people can like whatever they like. It wouldn't be the first time a tabletop adaptation failed to capture the magic of the source material and was still well-loved regardless. Magnusth posted:Similarly, personalizing lightsabers is cool and rad, and certainly commonplace in the movies, and the creation of lightsabers seems to be important to the jedi and the sith both. I could totally see a custom lightsaber or a special crystal be a cool and good plotpoint. Given that we've seen shot, long, guarded and double lightsabers in the movies already, that seems totallyy reasonable as options in a game. Where? There are four lightsaber colors in the movies: blue, green, red and purple with only red denoting anything at all, and even that isn't explicitly said. There are three kinds of lightsabers on top of that. No one ever talks about them outside of two scenes, one in A New Hope and the other in Return of the Jedi (though I guess maybe you could count The Force Awakens). The lightsaber is the equivalent of a six-shooter from a western, you know what it is and what it does implicitly. All this nonsense of delving into the physics of a lightsaber or coming up with more and more elaborately stupid lightsaber designs completely misses the point.
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Sep 8, 2016 20:12
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