Military History Mk. III: One that I know of is an archaic word for dick, another is

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Rodrigo Diaz: Apr 16, 2007; Knights who are at the wars eat their bread in sorrow;
their ease is weariness and sweat;
they have one good day after many bad

EvanSchenck posted:

If it is competitive with a matchlock in penetration and killing power, yes.

When you're shooting a projectile with mechanical force, you have to supply as much work to draw the bow back as it will release when you shoot. You're not using an explosion to move your projectile. For something you're doing with just your arms and back, like a longbow, 150 lbs. draw weight is reasonable... provided the archer has been training for a very, very long time. However, crossbows have a much shorter power stroke than a longbow, so it is less efficient when imparting energy to the projectile. To get a crossbow to deliver similar performance to that longbow you probably need 300ish lbs. draw weight, far too much to be spanned by hand. It can be done with a belt hook, which allows you to employ both your legs.

Machines are another option. You still have to do the same amount of work to span the crossbow, but you can do it more slowly over a larger distance. A goats foot lever spreads out the work by think 4:1, which makes a 400ish lb. crossbow manageable and still pretty quick to fire. But stacking up against a matchlock demands easily over 1000 lbs. draw weight. To span that you need to drastically increase your mechanical advantage by using a windlass or a cranequin, but all that mechanical advantage means you'll be working at it for a pretty long time. It will actually work out slower than a matchlock, especially if you account for hooking and unhooking the machine.

I don't agree with you here on two key premises: First I don't think that by the time you get real lock-fired guns (and especially once you get corned powder) that either man-portable crossbows or selfbows are really their equal in terms of wounding potential and penetrative power. At the same time, crossbows, even windlass-driven types, are noticeably faster to span than arquebus or muskets are to load (half a minute vs. a whole minute). There are a lot more discrete steps in loading early firearms, and you need to take care not to blow yourself up you also need to make sure that the cherry on your match is ready, etc etc.

Edit: For crossbow speed I'm referring to the shot-to-shot time in this vid:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEOeZTV9wiA

Matchlock time comes from Hegel and seems in line with this vid
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yzf0ZiVr9qw

# ? Sep 8, 2016 04:29

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# ? May 10, 2024 00:27

Pellisworth: Jun 20, 2005

Rodrigo Diaz posted:

I don't agree with you here on two key premises: First I don't think that by the time you get real lock-fired guns (and especially once you get corned powder) that either man-portable crossbows or selfbows are really their equal in terms of wounding potential and penetrative power. At the same time, crossbows, even windlass-driven types, are noticeably faster to span than arquebus or muskets are to load (half a minute vs. a whole minute). There are a lot more discrete steps in loading early firearms, and you need to take care not to blow yourself up you also need to make sure that the cherry on your match is ready, etc etc.

Edit: For crossbow speed I'm referring to the shot-to-shot time in this vid:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEOeZTV9wiA

Matchlock time comes from Hegel and seems in line with this vid
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yzf0ZiVr9qw

Thanks, would crossbows have been more accurate and had a longer effective range than 30YW (or so) era muskets? Were crossbows mostly obsoleted or were there any niche uses or groups that still used them? Like I remember the Genoese being famous for their crossbowmen, is that at all still a thing by the 30YW?

# ? Sep 8, 2016 05:13

Schenck v. U.S.: Sep 8, 2010

Rodrigo Diaz posted:

First I don't think that by the time you get real lock-fired guns (and especially once you get corned powder) that either man-portable crossbows or selfbows are really their equal in terms of wounding potential and penetrative power.

By "competitive" I didn't mean to imply that crossbows with very high draw weights were equal to matchlocks. I was getting around to the discussion of spanning with mechanical devices by specifying that not all crossbows will give you the least of what a matchlock can do--a high likelihood of penetrating quality body armor and causing wounds at short range. That requires a very heavy crossbow, which takes longer to span. They will be less powerful than a matchlock, but still sufficient to have a good chance of getting that result.

quote:

At the same time, crossbows, even windlass-driven types, are noticeably faster to span than arquebus or muskets are to load (half a minute vs. a whole minute). There are a lot more discrete steps in loading early firearms, and you need to take care not to blow yourself up you also need to make sure that the cherry on your match is ready, etc etc.

The rate of fire for a matchlocks is given by most sources at between 1 and 2 shots per minute, but I can definitely believe that the faster number is at best an optimistic ideal-conditions estimate.

# ? Sep 8, 2016 05:35

FAUXTON: Jun 2, 2005; spero che tu stia bene

"welp, my quiver got water in it and now I can't fire my crossbow" said no crossbowman ever.

# ? Sep 8, 2016 06:17

Pellisworth: Jun 20, 2005

FAUXTON posted:

"welp, my quiver got water in it and now I can't fire my crossbow" said no crossbowman ever.

yeah but if you get the bowstrings wet, Battle of Crecy

# ? Sep 8, 2016 06:53

OpenlyEvilJello: Dec 28, 2009

I'm sure I've read that yew became extremely expensive over the course of England's wars, at least by the time the Tudors come to power.

FAUXTON posted:

"welp, my quiver got water in it and now I can't fire my crossbow" said no crossbowman ever.

One of the most famous anecdotes from the Hundred Years War involves hired crossbowmen being unable to shoot because they let their strings get wet.
e:fb

# ? Sep 8, 2016 06:55

FAUXTON: Jun 2, 2005; spero che tu stia bene

Pellisworth posted:

yeah but if you get the Genoese wet, Battle of Crecy

# ? Sep 8, 2016 07:03

Jobbo_Fett: Mar 7, 2014; Slava Ukrayini; Clapping Larry

Ensign Expendable posted:

Hm, what's this, a book by an alleged "internationally recognized expert on the Eastern Front"?

Welp.

Edit: he also based the entire thing on loving SS records and just shrugs and goes "there's no way to establish Soviet losses so let's just take the SS claims at face value".

100 to 130 pounds! :argh:

OwlFancier posted:

Also minor point but I believe the soviet 152 fired an about 90lb shell, the American 155 was the one firing 100lb shells but it also had about double the range.

And the D-1 152 howizter on it's gun carriage is actually slightly larger than the T34 so it would probably look even stupider than the Israeli Shermans.

According to British technical documents, 152mm rounds weighed between 99 lbs and 131 lbs.

# ? Sep 8, 2016 08:31

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

idgi, what is loophole 14 :confused:

# ? Sep 8, 2016 08:40

Pellisworth: Jun 20, 2005

Tias posted:

idgi, what is loophole 14

pewwww I shot the kroner out of your hand, Danish scum

Now please have a high-ranking general come tour our defensive line, what's the worst that could happen?

# ? Sep 8, 2016 09:00

Splode: Jun 18, 2013; put some clothes on you little freak

Tias posted:

idgi, what is loophole 14

It's been a recurring thing in Trin's ww1 blog. Loophole 14 is on the italian/austrian front, and provides the observer an incredibly good view of the austrian position. However, it's being watched by an Austrian sniper at all times.

Multiple Italian officers have been killed when the soldiers say "don't look through loophole 14, you'll get shot" and the officers respond with "MMMM gently caress YOU I'M BRAVE"
*bang*

So this intrepid soldier was attempting to kill the general the same way, but in a stroke of bad luck, the austrian sniper wasn't there/watching or decided not to shoot.
In disgust, they took loophole 14 apart.

# ? Sep 8, 2016 10:04

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

Tias posted:

idgi, what is loophole 14

look through it and find out

# ? Sep 8, 2016 10:36

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

Oooh, that trench! Yeah, the cavalry officer insisting he won't die and gets shot in the face is morbidly funny

# ? Sep 8, 2016 10:44

my dad: Oct 17, 2012; this shall be humorous

Splode posted:

It's been a recurring thing in Trin's ww1 blog. Loophole 14 is on the italian/austrian front, and provides the observer an incredibly good view of the austrian position. However, it's being watched by an Austrian sniper at all times.

Multiple Italian officers have been killed when the soldiers say "don't look through loophole 14, you'll get shot" and the officers respond with "MMMM gently caress YOU I'M BRAVE"
*bang*

So this intrepid soldier was attempting to kill the general the same way, but in a stroke of bad luck, the austrian sniper wasn't there/watching or decided not to shoot.
In disgust, they took loophole 14 apart.

You skipped the best part. Once the general left, the soldiers brought a coin to the loophole, and as soon as it reflected sunlight, it was shot.

# ? Sep 8, 2016 10:49

Take the plunge! Okay!: Feb 24, 2007

Hi guys! Here's a photo of my great-grandfather. Could anyone be so kind to identify the uniform and give me any details about where he might've been deployed or what was his unit?

I am guessing Austro-Hungarian, since it would fit his place of birth and age, but you never know.

# ? Sep 8, 2016 11:02

Power Khan: Aug 20, 2011; by Fritz the Horse

EvanSchenck posted:

If it is competitive with a matchlock in penetration and killing power, yes.

When you're shooting a projectile with mechanical force, you have to supply as much work to draw the bow back as it will release when you shoot. You're not using an explosion to move your projectile. For something you're doing with just your arms and back, like a longbow, 150 lbs. draw weight is reasonable... provided the archer has been training for a very, very long time. However, crossbows have a much shorter power stroke than a longbow, so it is less efficient when imparting energy to the projectile. To get a crossbow to deliver similar performance to that longbow you probably need 300ish lbs. draw weight, far too much to be spanned by hand. It can be done with a belt hook, which allows you to employ both your legs.

Machines are another option. You still have to do the same amount of work to span the crossbow, but you can do it more slowly over a larger distance. A goats foot lever spreads out the work by think 4:1, which makes a 400ish lb. crossbow manageable and still pretty quick to fire. But stacking up against a matchlock demands easily over 1000 lbs. draw weight. To span that you need to drastically increase your mechanical advantage by using a windlass or a cranequin, but all that mechanical advantage means you'll be working at it for a pretty long time. It will actually work out slower than a matchlock, especially if you account for hooking and unhooking the machine.

The crossbow equivalent to a 120-140# longbow in terms of power is a +1200# crossbow. In terms of kinetic energy, it's getting close to a 22., but KE is something that people like to point at and think that it's the be all end all, while it's not.

Momentum is probably more important once you're dealing with longer ranges than pointblank, and also armors that are made of many layers of cloth, or e.g. when you shoot a horse. Hence, when you look at infantry archers, they usually shoot heavy arrows with longer bows. That's also true for the Turks.

Are there Swedes here? There's a collection of looted bows from the Turkish Wars in the Skokloster, nearly all of them being Crimean Tartar bows. That's highly unusual, these are typical infantry bows according to Y�cel's book. What a soldier would carry, not the bling stuff that you see in museums. Imo worth examining, because there's hardly any military grade equipment on display anywhere, but in Vienna.

# ? Sep 8, 2016 11:15

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

JaucheCharly posted:

Are there Swedes here?

as far as i can tell, it's mostly swedes

# ? Sep 8, 2016 11:22

Grey Hunter: Oct 17, 2007; Hero of the soviet union.
Accidental destroyer of planets

HEY GAL posted:

as far as i can tell, it's mostly swedes

And Brit's. The two powerhouses of world history.

# ? Sep 8, 2016 11:23

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

Grey Hunter posted:

And Brit's. The two powerhouses of world history.

set up a game of Pike and Shotte and we'll see

# ? Sep 8, 2016 11:24

Trin Tragula: Apr 22, 2005

mcustic posted:

Hi guys! Here's a photo of my great-grandfather. Could anyone be so kind to identify the uniform and give me any details about where he might've been deployed or what was his unit?

I am guessing Austro-Hungarian, since it would fit his place of birth and age, but you never know.

I'm 95% certain that's an Austro-Hungarian blouse/tunic/whatever (the pocket shape and the hat), but anything more than that is beyond my resources.

# ? Sep 8, 2016 11:26

FAUXTON: Jun 2, 2005; spero che tu stia bene

my dad posted:

You skipped the best part. Once the general left, the soldiers brought a coin to the loophole, and as soon as it reflected sunlight, it was shot.

gently caress you I ain't relieving you of that rear end in a top hat

# ? Sep 8, 2016 11:37

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

EvanSchenck posted:

The rate of fire for a matchlocks is given by most sources at between 1 and 2 shots per minute, but I can definitely believe that the faster number is at best an optimistic ideal-conditions estimate.

and they don't go off about one time out of every five shots, for reasons

so you need to include the time it takes the dude to figure out what's wrong and fix it and try again in your estimate of how long it takes him to shoot

# ? Sep 8, 2016 11:50

MikeCrotch: Nov 5, 2011; I AM UNJUSTIFIABLY PROUD OF MY SPAGHETTI BOLOGNESE RECIPE

YES, IT IS AN INCREDIBLY SIMPLE DISH

NO, IT IS NOT NORMAL TO USE A PEPPERAMI INSTEAD OF MINCED MEAT

YES, THERE IS TOO MUCH SALT IN MY RECIPE

NO, I WON'T STOP SHARING IT

more like BOLLOCKnese

FAUXTON posted:

gently caress you I ain't relieving you of that rear end in a top hat

Do you reckon the AH troops had one of those identification guides, but instead of the tank/plane/ship silhouettes it's portraits of General Cadorna and co with "DO NOT SHOOT THIS MAN" next to them

# ? Sep 8, 2016 11:54

ArchangeI: Jul 15, 2010

MikeCrotch posted:

Do you reckon the AH troops had one of those identification guides, but instead of the tank/plane/ship silhouettes it's portraits of General Cadorna and co with "DO NOT SHOOT THIS MAN" next to them

"His imperial and royal Majesty would like to congratulate Gen. Cadorna to yet another very successful offensive at the Izorno and would like to offer his most heartfelt encouragement to continue operations in this sector."

# ? Sep 8, 2016 13:19

KYOON GRIFFEY JR: Apr 12, 2010; Runner-up, TRP Sack Race 2021/22

The A-H photo is definitely of a private since a noncom would have stars on his collar patches, and an officer would have lace and other decorations. He also appears to have a plain isignia disc on his hat but I really cannot make out what the regiment would be. Based on pictures online, he looks like he is K.u.K rather than either of the Landwehr.

Where is the man's family from?

# ? Sep 8, 2016 13:47

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

ArchangeI posted:

"His imperial and royal Majesty would like to congratulate Gen. Cadorna to yet another very successful offensive at the Izorno and would like to offer his most heartfelt encouragement to continue operations in this sector."

it is beginning to seem to me like "find good ground, dig into it, and wait until your enemies attack you like some big idiot" has been HRE-->AHE practice since 1626

# ? Sep 8, 2016 13:54

MikeCrotch: Nov 5, 2011; I AM UNJUSTIFIABLY PROUD OF MY SPAGHETTI BOLOGNESE RECIPE

YES, IT IS AN INCREDIBLY SIMPLE DISH

NO, IT IS NOT NORMAL TO USE A PEPPERAMI INSTEAD OF MINCED MEAT

YES, THERE IS TOO MUCH SALT IN MY RECIPE

NO, I WON'T STOP SHARING IT

more like BOLLOCKnese

HEY GAL posted:

it is beginning to seem to me like "find good ground, dig into it, and wait until your enemies attack you like some big idiot" has been HRE-->AHE practice since 1626

"General, the Swedish are coming!"
"My God, this is it! Let's see what these dogs are made of. How do they approach?"
"...they are attempting a frontal assault again, sir."
"Oh. Well, then. Roll up the musketeers and artillery and let me know how many we kill this time before they give up."

# ? Sep 8, 2016 14:53

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

now at wittstock, the Imperialists (and Saxons) discovered that Swedes could also utilize enveloping attacks and not just attack your prepared position from the front, but Baner and Leslie were better generals than Horn, and Hatzfeldt was a worse general than Wallenstein or probably even Gallas.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Wittstock

quote:

The Imperial forces decided to wait for the Swedes on a range of sandy hills, the Scharfenberg. A part of the Imperial front was further defended with six ditches and a wall of linked wagons. Their commanders waited for some time for the Swedish troops to appear on the open fields to their front. Instead, the Swedish army was turning the Imperial left flank, moving behind the cover of a series of linked hills. The Imperial troops were forced to redeploy their lines to set up a new front....

edit: this is probably an illustration of how everyone's always fighting the previous battle, Hatzfeldt probably expected it to go like Noerdlingen went. Visibility was also very bad through the trees, so Hatzfeldt may have thought he was facing the entire Swedish army to his front, which would account for why he didn't just roll them forward while Baner was getting bogged down in the woods trying to flank him.

HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 00:38 on Sep 9, 2016

# ? Sep 8, 2016 15:06

MikeCrotch: Nov 5, 2011; I AM UNJUSTIFIABLY PROUD OF MY SPAGHETTI BOLOGNESE RECIPE

YES, IT IS AN INCREDIBLY SIMPLE DISH

NO, IT IS NOT NORMAL TO USE A PEPPERAMI INSTEAD OF MINCED MEAT

YES, THERE IS TOO MUCH SALT IN MY RECIPE

NO, I WON'T STOP SHARING IT

more like BOLLOCKnese

HEY GAL posted:

now at wittstock, the Imperialists (and Saxons) discovered that Swedes could also utilize enveloping attacks

I'm imagining a catholic soldier in a bar trying to convince all his mates that Swedes can only move in straight lines Shaun of the Dead style

# ? Sep 8, 2016 15:59

Vincent Van Goatse: Nov 8, 2006; Enjoy every sandwich.; Smellrose

HEY GAL posted:

it is beginning to seem to me like "find good ground, dig into it, and wait until your enemies attack you like some big idiot" has been HRE-->AHE practice since 1626

Conrad von Hotzendorf didn't believe in that. He believed in ATTACK! ATTACK!

Conrad von Hotzendorf was a nitwit.

# ? Sep 8, 2016 16:22

MikeCrotch: Nov 5, 2011; I AM UNJUSTIFIABLY PROUD OF MY SPAGHETTI BOLOGNESE RECIPE

YES, IT IS AN INCREDIBLY SIMPLE DISH

NO, IT IS NOT NORMAL TO USE A PEPPERAMI INSTEAD OF MINCED MEAT

YES, THERE IS TOO MUCH SALT IN MY RECIPE

NO, I WON'T STOP SHARING IT

more like BOLLOCKnese

ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:

Conrad von Hotzendorf didn't believe in that. He believed in ATTACK! ATTACK!

Conrad von Hotzendorf was a nitwit.

Conrad von Hotzendorf was tragically hosed up dude. His diary entries are dark as gently caress - he was obssessed with spending time with his mistress, and wrote constantly about how he was crushed by the weight of the responsibility of his position and the pressure to always show a strong masculine side that never backed down. A lot of correspondence revolves around how he didn't want to have to portray a tough manly man all the time and just wanted to spend time with his mistress and get away from the world.

Not that it excuses what he did, but I found the section in The Sleepwalkers on the demands of 1910's society on military men fascinating. They were supposed to be these unflappable paragons of manly manliness, which possibly led to the inflamed rhetoric and "Attack Attack Attack!" mentality of many of the players, but private writings show high ranking dudes on all sides to all be pretty tortured and stressed, often suffering from similar recurring nightmares and mental health problems.

# ? Sep 8, 2016 16:30

FAUXTON: Jun 2, 2005; spero che tu stia bene

HEY GAL posted:

it is beginning to seem to me like "find good ground, dig into it, and wait until your enemies attack you like some big idiot" has been HRE-->AHE practice since 1626

They rolled into Bosnia and waited for Ferdinand to get assassinated. Checks out.

# ? Sep 8, 2016 17:10

Elyv: Jun 14, 2013

MikeCrotch posted:

but private writings show high ranking dudes on all sides to all be pretty tortured and stressed, often suffering from similar recurring nightmares and mental health problems.

These were people who, with the stroke of a pen, could(and did) set into motion battles that lead to tens of thousands, sometimes hundreds of thousands dead on each side. I almost feel like anyone who didn't have doubts or nightmares with that kind of responsibility on their shoulders and blood on their hands was already a sociopath or something.

Elyv fucked around with this message at 18:10 on Sep 8, 2016

# ? Sep 8, 2016 17:18

SeanBeansShako: Nov 20, 2009; Now the Drums beat up again,
For all true Soldier Gentlemen.

Elyv posted:

These were people who, with the stroke of a pen, could(and did) set into motion battles that lead to tens of thousands, sometimes hundreds of thousands on each side. I almost feel like anyone who didn't have doubts or nightmares with that kind of responsibility on their shoulders and blood on their hands was already a sociopath or something.

I always feel a little sorry for this guy despite some of his gently caress up's now, you got all those weird issues on top of living in your uncles shadow.

# ? Sep 8, 2016 17:54