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Mors Rattus posted:Your right to avoid self-incrimination does not mean you can refuse to answer any random question. If it could possibly in any way incriminate me, even in an obtuse way, it's my right to withhold that information  Say, for example, that one of the officers hears my name as I'm giving this information and it turns out they're looking for me because someone tried to, I dunno, pin the vandalizing of a car near my place of employment on me? That would constitute evidence enough for a warrant in a lot of courts I'd bet.
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Sep 8, 2016 06:22
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Epic High Five posted:If it could possibly in any way incriminate me, even in an obtuse way, it's my right to withhold that information Also, they know your name and address because they sent you the summons, remember?
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Sep 8, 2016 06:25
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nm posted:How do you feel about contempt charges? Exactly! So they don't need me to possibly incriminate myself. I guess I could just lie and if they correct me be all like AHA! you didn't need it after all, then probably get tazed I served like 3 years ago and they didn't ask me poo poo, just sat me in a room and after awhile said I could leave bc apparently I wasn't juror material
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Sep 8, 2016 06:30
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I witnessed and called in a shooting once at a place I worked, and I was so eager to be of any help I could that the police assumed I was the owner when they showed up. It wasn't until they asked me to help them get access to the security cameras that my boss chimed in. I just assumed it was my duty and the right thing to do to report what I could and never gave a thought to lawyering up. Like I guess I shouldn't have volunteered anything even though there was no way it could have been me but why?
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Sep 8, 2016 06:32
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cumshitter posted:I witnessed and called in a shooting once at a place I worked, and I was so eager to be of any help I could that the police assumed I was the owner when they showed up. It wasn't until they asked me to help them get access to the security cameras that my boss chimed in. Who knows? Anything you say can be used against you. Maybe it comes back to you in the form of conspiracy charges because someone they caught named you because they knew you were around and were hoping for a plea, and you can't provide an alibi? In the case you described it's not likely to bite you in the rear end but not everything is so clear cut. I've never been in the situation but certainly if anything ever seems fishy I'm clamming up. This was what convinced me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc It's not something I've done but I certainly understand why somebody would never tell anything to any branch of law enforcement ever except through a lawyer. I was mostly curious when I asked initially. Obviously in the case of Bundy and co they're well beyond any help this could offer V V V OWNED V V V
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Sep 8, 2016 06:38
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cumshitter posted:I witnessed and called in a shooting once at a place I worked, and I was so eager to be of any help I could that the police assumed I was the owner when they showed up. It wasn't until they asked me to help them get access to the security cameras that my boss chimed in. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc etc. e: Lol beaten between searching for the video and hitting post
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Sep 8, 2016 06:39
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Though as a white middle-class man I think it's probably fine to help cops out usually - I gave a description of a guy who ripped off a 7-11 once and it was no big deal. Don't try this if you're poor or belong to a race with skin any darker than lilly white though.
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Sep 8, 2016 06:44
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Thank god the guy tried to suicide by cop 15 minutes later or I could have been hosed. At least one of us dodged a bullet there.
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Sep 8, 2016 06:44
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Facebook Aunt posted:I'm 44 years old and I've never been called for jury duty. I got called in twice, both within a couple years of each other when I was a college student. I was all "I'm a student and honestly I'd have no issue serving but you called me in a week before finals..." Both times the judge just chuckled, shook my hand, thanked me for coming in and told me to have a nice day. I got the feeling he enjoyed having someone who showed up on time, quietly sat through all the explanations and gave a reasonable reason to not serve instead of people coming up with bullshit.
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Sep 8, 2016 16:46
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I'd be happy to do it, I have a lot of free time.
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I sat through a grand-jury selection process once. Around here, those things sit a jury for a 3 months and they hear a bunch of different cases every week. It was expected to be something like a 9-2 commitment 3 days a week. Must have been 200 people called in for 22 spots and they excused people for almost any reason. It was the people who wanted to be there that got on, and it looked like they fell into two groups. #1 People with nothing to do - old people, homeless, crazies #2 People who knew their company would pay for jury duty and wanted to slack off Only judge and prosecutor had any say. Made me realize how little a grand jury indictment actually might mean. e: Is there a way to make this stupid animated background go away?
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Sep 8, 2016 16:54
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Good christ I hate that video so much. It's the Sugar is the Bitter Truth of law.
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Sep 8, 2016 17:01
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Having experienced being part of a jury, I think I'd opt for a bench trial if I was innocent, and a jury trial If I Did It. "If I were innocent?" Not sure which word to use. Whatever.
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Sep 8, 2016 17:02
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Discendo Vox posted:Good christ I hate that video so much. It's the Sugar is the Bitter Truth of law. What's wrong with it? (I'm genuinely asking, I don't know) I mean he seems to be exaggerating and assuming the worst case in all possible situations, but I think the cop that came up after him and was like "yeah that's basically all true though I only ever arrest guilty people  " was pretty, uh, concerning?
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Sep 8, 2016 17:27
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Now I don't come from the most diverse area but the vast majority of people I know who legitimately hates cops are middle class white people who have some variety of hosed in the head going on. The kind if people who get caught speeding and go on the warpath over it.
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Sep 8, 2016 17:37
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Casimir Radon posted:Now I don't come from the most diverse area but the vast majority of people I know who legitimately hates cops are middle class white people who have some variety of hosed in the head going on. The kind if people who get caught speeding and go on the warpath over it. I mean I don't hate cops or anything I just think that the system as it stands is set up to psychologically push them away from "protect and serve" and towards "we must stop the crime enemy at all costs," mix in a bunch of other fun human biases that aren't being addressed or trained for and you have a recipe for trouble.
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Sep 8, 2016 17:41
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I lift weights with a couple cops. They used to be my best regulars when I was in restaurants. I like cops fine. It's a constitutional right and can be expressed without any animosity being necessary
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Sep 8, 2016 17:46
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Epic High Five posted:I lift weights with a couple cops. They used to be my best regulars when I was in restaurants. I like cops fine. It's a constitutional right and can be expressed without any animosity being necessary My experience has also probably been skewed because these are Florida cops, all the old people here cause the state's funding priorities to be "pay the cops whatever is needed to keep those scary thug people away from my golf cart" and "screw education I don't have any school-age kids and my grandkids live across the country." I met a retired NYPD officer once while watching a rocket launch and chatted him up while we were standing around waiting for liftoff and he was a real cool guy. He told me a bunch of great stories (like once he had to deal with a drunk guy thought he was playing Wii in the middle of Times Square on the giant TV screen and was very adamant about finishing his game, or how a cops' drug of choice is cocaine because it's out of the system before they can test for it at the end of the day) and how he always tried to be nice to people and not arrest them unless he had to. He also mentioned that "the cops down here are way different - they like to gently caress with you, I've never seen cops do that until I came here" so yeah. Also he had some dank NJ weed with him that he shared with me because he was the coolest goddamn officer ever
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Sep 8, 2016 17:50
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No cop is going to ever arrest someone they did not think committed a crime (outside of some racist bullshit arrests).
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Sep 8, 2016 17:52
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Mr. Nice! posted:No cop is going to ever arrest someone they did not think committed a crime (outside of some racist bullshit arrests). Well obviously, but this guy was more talking about even people who did commit pretty minor crimes he'd just let go. Like he was really disappointed with that Wii guy because he thought it was hilarious to watch him and when he tried to get him out of the street the guy threw a punch and "aw dammit buddy now I have to arrest you"
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Sep 8, 2016 17:53
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I'm a young, light skinned, (half) Hispanic woman. I've done a lot of police liaison work as an advocate for various people and groups of people. I am friendly, helpful, gentle, and kind. gently caress the police.
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Sep 8, 2016 17:54
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Among other things, it means I get to read a spate of the third party posts after this one. It promotes and spreads libertarian Bundy-style paranoia about law enforcement, a problem at the best of times.Refusing to speak with the police, ever, makes it much harder for them to do their jobs, and creates a massive social gulf between law enforcement and the rest of society that actually winds up adding to problems of police abuse, by creating the psychological factors that PP mentioned earlier. To speak briefly to the anecdotes above, one of the central problems of police regulation in the US is that for a bunch of valid, messy constitutional reasons, there isn't one way the police approach things, because there isn't one set of police practices- instead there are about 18,000. It's not even "Florida police", it's "police from a particular precinct office who entered the force during a five year span when they were taught by instructor X under policy Y". Epic High Five posted:I lift weights with a couple cops. They used to be my best regulars when I was in restaurants. I like cops fine. It's a constitutional right and can be expressed without any animosity being necessary You've already demonstrated you don't know what the fifth amendment does. Parallel Paraplegic posted:What's wrong with it? (I'm genuinely asking, I don't know) I mean he seems to be exaggerating and assuming the worst case in all possible situations, but I think the cop that came up after him and was like "yeah that's basically all true though I only ever arrest guilty people Are you referring to the person who was coordinated to speak at the same time with, and worked with, the main speaker, who established the framing and promotion of the recording? Again, the guy might be a law professor, but he's promoting a lefty form of the same sort of alienating paranoia that sovcit gurus do (you're probably going to get some fun videos in your youtube recommendations for a while, btw). The video is meant to appeal to, and feeds upon, a desire to see the police as an antagonistic Other. I mean, are we really having the "here's a seminar by a Professor telling you One Weird Trick that lets you gently caress the police, who totally have it out for you" conversation in the Bundy trial thread? edit: christ, I forgot the channel it's hosted on. Discendo Vox has issued a correction as of 19:02 on Sep 8, 2016 |
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Sep 8, 2016 18:31
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DV, you make some good points above. I have seen a lot of really horrible stuff go down that I couldn't stop, like the police tazing a disabled young man in my care... but your points that attitudes like those increase the gulf between the police force and the rest of society resonate with me, and I'm going to feel into my next steps as I reconsider my position.
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Sep 8, 2016 18:38
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Sorry, that video puts me on the warpath, it's very effective at its goals, and it comes up on SA periodically. My claims basically boil down to: 1. To be clear, WrenP-Complete, your police may well be total dickbags. But, literally, #Notallpolice. The Tenth Amendment, which is ultimately a Good Thing, means there's going to be wild variance in police quality from one location to the next (short version: the founders said, "hey, letting the central government claim direct control over all law enforcement seems like a one-way ticket to tyrant town"). Some police are in fact not taze-happy racist paranoiacs. The biggest determining factor is their workplace policies and culture. 2. Refusing to speak to the police, in particular, isn't a very effective way of evading police abuses, and it often makes the situation worse- either immediately for you, immediately for them (if you could have actually helped them), and in the long term worse for police-public interactions. Are there valid times not to do it? Totally, but not at all times, and not often. 3. Most importantly, the person who hosted that video on youtube is a varminting enthusiast with a penchant for WWII videos, especially ones starring the Germans. Discendo Vox has issued a correction as of 19:05 on Sep 8, 2016 |
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Sep 8, 2016 19:01
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Reminds me of a thing in some of this year's gay pride parades in canada. Some BLM protesters have objected to police having a float or participating in the parade. They've requested that even LBQT officers only participate wearing civilian clothes rather than in uniform, because their uniforms are offensive somehow? Letting them participate is erasing all the bad things they did to gay people in the 70s and 80s. Or something. Black gays feel unsafe having police gays in the parade. Meanwhile everyone else is going "uh, we worked really hard for 20 years to create a genial relationship between the police and the gay community, why would we want to turn that back into an adversarial relationship?"
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Sep 8, 2016 19:09
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Facebook Aunt posted:Reminds me of a thing in some of this year's gay pride parades in canada. Some BLM protesters have objected to police having a float or participating in the parade. They've requested that even LBQT officers only participate wearing civilian clothes rather than in uniform, because their uniforms are offensive somehow? Letting them participate is erasing all the bad things they did to gay people in the 70s and 80s. Or something. Black gays feel unsafe having police gays in the parade. They probably don't care about how it impacts anyone other than themselves and their agenda.
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Sep 8, 2016 19:49
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Sir we just received an Ambee Alert, have you seen this ma- gently caress off copper, show me a warrant!
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Sep 8, 2016 19:55
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Let's see how those fine people who hang out on the Bundy facebook are taking things:quote:Chris Becker Of course santili gets to go. Hes a spook working both sides and creating inner conflict among people who strive for freedom. quote:Gavin Seim for Liberty Pete has always stood with us and has showed up on the ground all over America. There is zero real evidence that he's a spook. Maybe you're referring to the clear fake "fax" to the FBI that those who don't like him Photoshoped together. Gavin has a little blue tick, he's one up on Milo quote:Chris Becker if you've ever seen any of Pete's shows or heard any of the accounts of how he handles his business and the people he conducts it with you would know there is nore than an email to the fbi sgowing how decisive he is. Not to mention his blatant anti semetic stance on everything. Santili is the only one spreading division. quote:Chris Becker Except when he steels their money and scuttles massive protests. Oh and dont forget the shitstorm he tries to bring on real patriots hahahaha quote:Sandy Turner I said day one when I met Pete that I don't trust him. His broadcasts from Burns, OR did little but anger the residents and turn them against what was being done for freedoms. I have always maintained that he would be released without charges being brought. The rest of the Patriots sit in prison and he skates. Change your name Pete. Your "freedom fighting" days are over now. No one will trust you again after this. Poor, poor Pete. And here we go, the foundation of their defence neatly summarised: quote:Tim Casey The court is a court of laws, which means you can appeal anything that is incorrect. Look at the big picture, if you loose you have to set up the case for appeal.
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Sep 8, 2016 20:04
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When to talk to police is complex and nuanced and it is fairly hard to explain in a youtube video. Further, most people are bad at reading cops and determining when they are being lied to. Generally, talking to the police when you shouldn't causes more legal problems than not talking. In my career, I have seen precisely one case that would have been helped by my client talking. In that case, his GF's abusive ex showed up and started dragging her to the car. My client beat the poo poo out of him and STFUed when the cops showed. If he had talked, the cops would have run ex's sheet, found several DV convictions and almost certainly would have arrested ex instead. Case was still dismissed, but he spent a night in jail and probably lost a bond fee. However, that is a narrow case that depended on this guy having a fairly extensive rap sheet. Yes, there are plenty of times when people talk and nothing bad happens, even good things, but 99 times out of 100 basically the same result occurs when you stfu. Basically, my philosophy is "when in doubt, invoke."
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Sep 8, 2016 20:17
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Zero protestors at the courthouse today. Where are the thousands of patriots? Where are the horses draped in flags? I saw Kenneth Medenbach being interviewed by a reporter in the morning, they were both standing alone on an empty block. Kinda sad.
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Sep 8, 2016 20:29
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ansel autisms posted:Zero protestors at the courthouse today. Where are the thousands of patriots? Where are the horses draped in flags? Stuck in traffic because you can't take horses on the MAX. drat socialists.
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Sep 8, 2016 20:33
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xj9Cqx7JZek
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Sep 8, 2016 20:50
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Volcott posted:Having experienced being part of a jury, I think I'd opt for a bench trial if I was innocent, and a jury trial If I Did It. To me it would boil down to " Do I want to put my future in the hands of 12 people who weren't smart enough to get out of jury duty?"
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Sep 8, 2016 20:52
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Your Gay Uncle posted:To me it would boil down to " Do I want to put my future in the hands of 12 people who weren't smart enough to get out of jury duty?" Nah, you're putting your future in your attorney's ability to convince those 12 people.
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Sep 8, 2016 21:31
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Your Gay Uncle posted:To me it would boil down to " Do I want to put my future in the hands of 12 people who weren't smart enough to get out of jury duty?" Whats amusing is that we just had all these posts about people in this thread having jury duty. I mean if you're paid salary and its a one or two day trial why the gently caress not. I feel for the sole proprietors and hourly workers though, jury duty has to loving suck for them.
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Sep 8, 2016 21:40
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Sep 8, 2016 22:05
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hobbesmaster posted:Whats amusing is that we just had all these posts about people in this thread having jury duty. I mean if you're paid salary and its a one or two day trial why the gently caress not. I feel for the sole proprietors and hourly workers though, jury duty has to loving suck for them.
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Sep 8, 2016 22:17
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I meant if your job pays you.
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Sep 8, 2016 22:17
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Discendo Vox posted:Among other things, it means I get to read a spate of the third party posts after this one. It promotes and spreads libertarian Bundy-style paranoia about law enforcement, a problem at the best of times.Refusing to speak with the police, ever, makes it much harder for them to do their jobs, and creates a massive social gulf between law enforcement and the rest of society that actually winds up adding to problems of police abuse, by creating the psychological factors that PP mentioned earlier. He's not really presenting any get out of jail free device. His entire point is how much the cops are allowed to use, everything, and the ways that talking can bite you in the rear end even if your innocent. One of the themes is that the majority of cases are pleaded out even if you choose to remain silent. You can still talk to the cops after you've seen your lawyer.
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Sep 8, 2016 22:22
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Your Gay Uncle posted:To me it would boil down to " Do I want to put my future in the hands of 12 people who weren't smart enough to get out of jury duty?" V. Do you want your fate in the hands on one guy who has seen the prosecutor and the cops on a regular basis and has to deal with them and possibly an election? Also was probably a prosecutor before this. The only reason to go with a judge trial is if you have a complex legal (rather than factual) defense in a case with no jury appeal. Aka "yeah, I was spying on those 8 year olds changing but under penal code 12, they didn't have a reasonable expectation of privacy, therefore please acquit me. Also I'm an ephebophile and that's perfectly normal judge."
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Sep 8, 2016 22:38
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Parallel Paraplegic posted:Well obviously, but this guy was more talking about even people who did commit pretty minor crimes he'd just let go. Like he was really disappointed with that Wii guy because he thought it was hilarious to watch him and when he tried to get him out of the street the guy threw a punch and "aw dammit buddy now I have to arrest you" Lots of cops are like that. Where I live I get pulled over on very rare occasions, but I'm genuinely nice and work with the cop and at worst get a verbal warning or in the case where my tail light was out, notified and then the cop took pictures with me and the bike because mopeds and motorized bikes are those quirky things. Most of the time they leave me be and wave when they go by despite not actually having a license tag for the bike (My SoS branch is kinda stupid). In the long run you're gonna have a better time being nice and helpful, while instantly going "Mah Rights!" tends to piss the cop off and get you everything he can give you because "You're gonna gently caress with me, I'm gonna gently caress with you"
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Sep 8, 2016 23:21
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