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Discendo Vox posted:If that's your standard, Salim and Tenzin no longer work. Regardless the actual problem here is more that they've overused the worldbuilding aspect of 'everyone has a history with someone else' card. However, this is true for a bunch of their plot beats: Rafe is the antagonist that Drake has directly worked with/personal experience ala Marlow and that dude from 2. The bad guys have had tons of time to find the thing but they're missing the one piece of the puzzle that Drake happens to have/stole from them. The aforementioned 'Nate loses now to make the victory later better' bit with Nadine.
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Sep 9, 2016 03:00
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CJacobs posted:Pretty much only the main characters get that treatment, which makes it an even worse storytelling device because you can immediately tell if a character is important or not if they have a ~history~ with the protagonist(s).
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Sep 9, 2016 03:11
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I would like to point out MY favorite animation thing, which is that drake's hair goes over his collar in a very nice, natural looking way. Or it's clipping but if so I can't tell the difference.
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Sep 9, 2016 03:31
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You know what? I've followed the LPs for every single one of these Uncharted games, and I've suspended my disbelief the entire time, but the one thing that has finally made me go "naaah, that's just not realistic" was Sam chucking a pistol from atop a building and Drake, hanging onto a sign atop an entirely different building, catching it with one hand.
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Sep 9, 2016 03:45
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Technically he didn't catch it, he fumbled it and then did that thing where you grab the thing against your body to avoid dropping it. It's actually the most realistic thing he could do! 
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Sep 9, 2016 03:48
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I mean the fact that Sam's throwing arm was that accurate was a bit absurd, but Nate's catch animation felt pretty spot on. It's how I probably would have caught something if I were...no I shouldn't go there.
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Sep 9, 2016 03:52
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chiasaur11 posted:Yeah, it seems to be the better class of unwinnable, like Jetstream Sam. No resources wasted by a player who doesn't know it's unwinnable, early enough it leaves room to develop while late enough in that there's effective scaling (More "Oh, crap. The boss is a badass." than "My guy is just a chump.") and the mechanics make it immediately obvious you're outclassed rather than giving the feeling that maybe you could have won, if you tried harder. The important thing here is to now follow it up at some point with a satisfying victory over Nadine. Doesn't have to be Nate suddenly getting better at hand to hand to beat her at on the same terms as what we just had, but it should feel earned and it should be there. Could be like the first two Indiana Jones movies where Indy gets into a fist fight with someone he can't handle and needs an environment hazard to beat. Over in the FF9 LP thread there was a lot of talk about General Beatrix, who you fight three times and she single-handedly whoops you three times, even if you've depleted her HP, then joins your side. Nothing changes about any of those fights except circumstances and so none of the fights give you a story point to show your characters have grown in some way and can now match her or that she's weakened in some way, even when she's starting to doubt her cause and the game is going to place her at your level anyway in a few cutscenes. Zagglezig fucked around with this message at 04:03 on Sep 9, 2016 |
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Sep 9, 2016 04:01
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Well, Sam did get that grapple in one go, so l buy that his aim is that good.
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Sep 9, 2016 04:11
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Didn't you hear him? He doesn't miss.
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Sep 9, 2016 04:19
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Zagglezig posted:The important thing here is to now follow it up at some point with a satisfying victory over Nadine. Doesn't have to be Nate suddenly getting better at hand to hand to beat her at on the same terms as what we just had, but it should feel earned and it should be there. Could be like the first two Indiana Jones movies where Indy gets into a fist fight with someone he can't handle and needs an environment hazard to beat. And in opposition is actually FFII on the NES (and all the umptrillion rereleases), which starts in media res with your party just getting STOMPED by the empire's forces... who are actually regular enemies that turn up way later in the game, the progression is entirely your own.
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Sep 9, 2016 04:40
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EponymousMrYar posted:Salim and Tenzin work because the former tells you all you need to know about him, the latter has a language barrier preventing communication with him and both are from societies that Drake and his buddies simply do not interact with. My point was that Salim and Tenzin are major characters, so the criticism, expressed with the provided prior standard, no longer applies. None of these things are meaningful critiques of the narrative, beyond the fact that narratives have conventions that are used to make them not suck. Not following these conventions would render the plots nonsensical or difficult for the player to follow. These are well-written games- perhaps some of the best-written in the medium at the moment.
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Sep 9, 2016 04:40
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Discendo Vox posted:My point was that Salim and Tenzin are major characters, so the criticism, expressed with the provided prior standard, no longer applies. None of these things are meaningful critiques of the narrative, beyond the fact that narratives have conventions that are used to make them not suck. Not following these conventions would render the plots nonsensical or difficult for the player to follow. These are well-written games- perhaps some of the best-written in the medium at the moment. Just because it's not literally every character doesn't mean it's not maybe a bit too prevalent. These are well-written good games, but that critique definitely flies. You can critique things that are good. They still have flaws. It's okay.
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Sep 9, 2016 04:51
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It is expected that people in the global theft community would know about one another.
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Sep 9, 2016 05:01
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Proposition Joe posted:It is expected that people in the global theft community would know about one another. It cheapens both characters, I feel. Now instead of having to learn about one another and form a relationship, the story can handwave that whole layer away with "I already know them therefore I already know who they are and what they are like". It takes away an element of depth. Doing it a few times to emphasize how good of friends specific people are is fine, but doing it multiple times in the same game with people of all alignments is cheap.
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Sep 9, 2016 05:13
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Drake doesn't know Nadine, he knows of her from Sully, and like Sully is going to let an attractive woman go on without meeting Victor Sullivan.
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Sep 9, 2016 05:15
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CJacobs posted:It cheapens both characters, I feel. Now instead of having to learn about one another and form a relationship, the story can handwave that whole layer away with "I already know them therefore I already know who they are and what they are like". It takes away an element of depth. Doing it a few times to emphasize how good of friends specific people are is fine, but doing it multiple times in the same game with people of all alignments is cheap. But Drake doesn't know Nadine and this is the first time they have met. Being cognizant about some big deal with a private military is expected for someone in Nate's line of work and is definitely not the same thing as knowing a person. And the only reason why Sully knows Nadine is because Nadine is a mod on the artifact thievery subreddit and Sully is a notorious shitposter there.
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Sep 9, 2016 05:35
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CJacobs posted:Doing it a few times to emphasize how good of friends specific people are is fine, but doing it multiple times in the same game with people of all alignments is cheap. Then it hit me, the real problem isn't with Nadine, it's with Sam. How does Sam know Sully? Sully being famous is one thing but there's conflicting inflections here and not enough evidence to decisively answer that question (contrast to Nadine in which we get a very clear gist of how she and Sully know one another.)
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Sep 9, 2016 05:47
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Sully met Nate 20 years before Uncharted 3, and Sam got shot 15 years before Uncharted 4. Sam and Sully almost assuredly worked together at some point in those 7 years.
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Sep 9, 2016 06:02
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I have no idea what's coming up in Uncharted 4, but this is kind of my guess: Sam leaves for that job for a year, takes his eyes off of Nate for one second and the li'l scoundrel's off to South America, where he meets Sully. Then Sam manages to track Nate down, who's like "hey look at this weird old man I found?" And they do like...heists and stuff together while the brothers grow up under Sully's non-watchful eye, but Sam's already too old to see Sully as his grandpa figure. So he doesn't exactly trust this greasy stinky geezer like Nate does.
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Sep 9, 2016 06:54
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There's also the fact that Sully is apparently on such good terms with whoever is running this highly classified highly secured illegal auction that he was able to get into the place just by schmoozing. I think it's safe to say that Sully is well known and well connected in the criminal world.
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Sep 9, 2016 06:54
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standard owl posted:I have no idea what's coming up in Uncharted 4, but this is kind of my guess: Sam leaves for that job for a year, takes his eyes off of Nate for one second and the li'l scoundrel's off to South America, where he meets Sully. Then Sam manages to track Nate down, who's like "hey look at this weird old man I found?" And they do like...heists and stuff together while the brothers grow up under Sully's non-watchful eye, but Sam's already too old to see Sully as his grandpa figure. So he doesn't exactly trust this greasy stinky geezer like Nate does. honestly, it's kind of funny that Sam is so upset about Nate involving Sully because "it should just be the two of us" when Sam was the one who told Nate he was silly for being upset that Sam had involved Rafe in Panama
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Sep 9, 2016 07:13
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Well, Rafe also did kill a dude and subsequently get Sam shot and locked up for 15 years so Sam has every reason to be careful.
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Sep 9, 2016 07:18
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all this has shown is that when it comes to partners, Nate has way better judgment
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Sep 9, 2016 07:20
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Xinder posted:Just because it's not literally every character doesn't mean it's not maybe a bit too prevalent. These are well-written good games, but that critique definitely flies. You can critique things that are good. They still have flaws. It's okay. These are not that well written. They are 80s action movies. Fun, dumb, and a bit nonsensical.
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Sep 9, 2016 07:40
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GoneRampant posted:If anyone's struggling to place Nadine's voice actress, that's Laura Bailey, essentially the female counterpart to Troy (In that she's frigging' everywhere). Nadine is a professional mercenary. It's not very surprising that she's better at fighting than he is.
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Sep 9, 2016 07:47
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Inco posted:Sully met Nate 20 years before Uncharted 3, and Sam got shot 15 years before Uncharted 4. Sam and Sully almost assuredly worked together at some point in those 7 years. I got the idea from how they apoke that Sully was involved in the Dismas hunt way back when.
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Sep 9, 2016 07:54
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bobjr posted:Drake doesn't know Nadine, he knows of her from Sully, and like Sully is going to let an attractive woman go on without meeting Victor Sullivan. Why'd you think the line went dead for while? 
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Sep 9, 2016 08:00
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Zereth posted:Nate's a salvage guy and ex-treasure hunter.
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Sep 9, 2016 08:11
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One bit I find interesting in this mission is watching how Nate and Sam deal with the grappling hook and rope on the 2 character sections. Since Nate is usually first one to go, he never takes the rope with him, so even when he goes up second, he just leaves it for Sam. On the other hand, Sam is animated so that he takes the rope with him as he climbs or swings, but then he drops it down for drake if he's the first to climb up or sucks the hook back into him if Drake isn't supposed to swing. I just think it's kind of funny that Drake just leaves to hook for someone else to pick up if there's someone else to do it. Josuke Higashikata posted:Why'd you think the line went dead for while? You joke, but I genuinely wondered if that was some sort of special signal blocking system being put up so that when Nate got back we'd find Sam and Sully had been captured.
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Sep 9, 2016 08:12
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Yeah I was kinda expecting Nadine to drug Sully for a bit. But then I remembered no mortal drug can touch him.
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Sep 9, 2016 08:20
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Rumda posted:Yeah I was kinda expecting Nadine to drug Sully for a bit. But then I remembered no mortal drug can touch him. He has tried everything and has built up an immunity to it all. Alternatively he has that same thing Mr Burns has where all the drugs are too busy crowding around one another and can't actually effect them cause they're stuck.
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Sep 9, 2016 08:35
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I really don't have any problems with Nadine being an unwinnable boss fight. Yeah, it was sort of cutscene-esque in how she would block most of your attacks, but the way Nate fights in general is cutscene-esque so it's not like she's breaking any game rules. He gets in a few hits, clean or otherwise, but ultimately he's just not good enough to take down a badass professional soldier (unlike the mook professional soldiers he takes down a dime a dozen). I do have a problem with her throwing him out the window for no reason, especially since she suspects that he's hidden a priceless artifact on his person somewhere. And Rafe has to have warned her that Nate has magnetic palms. Clarste fucked around with this message at 09:22 on Sep 9, 2016 |
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Sep 9, 2016 09:19
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Clarste posted:I really don't have any problems with Nadine being an unwinnable boss fight. Yeah, it was sort of cutscene-esque in how she would block most of your attacks, but the way Nate fights in general is cutscene-esque so it's not like she's breaking any game rules. He gets in a few hits, clean or otherwise, but ultimately he's just not good enough to take down a badass professional soldier (unlike the mook professional soldiers he takes down a dime a dozen). I'm fine with it, unwinnable boss fights happen. It establishes the boss as someone who's rear end you need to supremely kick and thus spurs the player on. When we meet Nadine again and we actually get a chance to fight her for real it'll be more satisfying than if we'd not won the first time.
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Sep 9, 2016 09:53
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I don't mind unbeatable bossfights, as long as it's either pretty obvious what it is or you don't have rare resources to waste on said fight. The worst thing is having to win a boss fight only to immediately lose anyway in the followup cutscene.
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Sep 9, 2016 09:59
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Zanzibar Ham posted:I don't mind unbeatable bossfights, as long as it's either pretty obvious what it is or you don't have rare resources to waste on said fight. Yeah, this is the main problem with FFIX's Beatrix mentioned earlier: they're entirely narrative in nature and on a grander scale, they build a very good progression and characterisation of both her and of the player characters. However, at no point does the game even hint at the fact that all fights against here are simply timed affairs. After a given set of rounds, she just resets everyone to 1 HP and ends the battle. Before that, she's an apparent boss monster with all regular rules one might expect from such a fight, which will unavoidably make the player waste consumables and MP during the fight, when none of it makes any difference and is better used to restore the party afterwards. The whole narrative arc also compounds this problem by teasing on multiple occasions. The first time, you get tricked because you don't know any better. The second time, you might think that it'll be a repeat because it doesn't feel like this is the time you'll get her, but there's still no in-game suggestion that you'll go through the same routine. The third time, it does feel like, yes! It is finally Beatrix-beatdown time… but no. Still timed; still a forced loss; still no hint that you're just wasting your stuff.
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Sep 9, 2016 13:47
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Tippis posted:Yeah, this is the main problem with FFIX's Beatrix mentioned earlier: they're entirely narrative in nature and on a grander scale, they build a very good progression and characterisation of both her and of the player characters. However, at no point does the game even hint at the fact that all fights against here are simply timed affairs. After a given set of rounds, she just resets everyone to 1 HP and ends the battle. Before that, she's an apparent boss monster with all regular rules one might expect from such a fight, which will unavoidably make the player waste consumables and MP during the fight, when none of it makes any difference and is better used to restore the party afterwards. No the worst part is that if you lose naturally in the fight, then you get a game over. I understand having unwinnable boss battles, I even understand not informing the player it's unwinnable and letting them waste resources. I will not forgive "You must only lose at the designated point!" Why does it matter? I can't win anyway!
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Sep 9, 2016 14:10
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Onmi posted:No the worst part is that if you lose naturally in the fight, then you get a game over. I understand having unwinnable boss battles, I even understand not informing the player it's unwinnable and letting them waste resources. I will not forgive "You must only lose at the designated point!" Why does it matter? I can't win anyway! Fair enough. That part is pretty stupid too, but that's probably more because, again, they just appear in in every way works as regular boss fights up until the moment the timer has run down. It feels more like a ludonarrative (oh dear…) oversight, though, than the kind of poor signalling that the rest of her fights represent.
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Sep 9, 2016 14:25
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Gonna go out on a limb and say every unwinnable boss fight is dumb. The ones that don't signal their unwinnableness, the ones that make you waste consumables and the ones that Game Over you if you lose too early are extra dumb. I'd say it's fine to be fighting a losing battle if and only if your objective clearly isn't winning the fight, but lasting a certain amount of time. Maybe you're covering somebody else's escape and have to hold the line, maybe you're literally running out the clock until the bell rings and the ref calls it a draw, maybe the boss's superpowers run out after five minutes, whatever - but make that clear from the getgo. Let me fight for something instead of wasting my time with a guaranteed complete failure. In RPGs, don't roll for it if the result of the dice roll doesn't matter. In videogames, don't present something as interactive regular gameplay that could just as well be a cutscene for all that your input matters.
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Sep 9, 2016 14:46
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One little thing I don't get. At about 40 minutes into episode 5, they find the kitchen door and Sam says it's locked. But it looks like it's got the same kind of electronic lock as the one from earlier, that Nate pickpocketed a keycard to. Why don't they just use that keycard to open the door? I guess it's possible that it is on a different system and requires a different card, but that they don't even think to try it is a bit odd. Like, I get that it's so that we can have more gameplay as they find another way in, but the level really felt like it was starting to drag on by then for me. I wouldn't have minded them getting in at that point.
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Sep 9, 2016 15:10
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Shoeless posted:One little thing I don't get. At about 40 minutes into episode 5, they find the kitchen door and Sam says it's locked. But it looks like it's got the same kind of electronic lock as the one from earlier, that Nate pickpocketed a keycard to. Why don't they just use that keycard to open the door? I guess it's possible that it is on a different system and requires a different card, but that they don't even think to try it is a bit odd. Like, I get that it's so that we can have more gameplay as they find another way in, but the level really felt like it was starting to drag on by then for me. I wouldn't have minded them getting in at that point. iirc Sully kept the card.
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Sep 9, 2016 15:55
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