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My copy of Fragged Empire arrives tomorrow. Hopefully my house has not washed away by then.
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Sep 9, 2016 16:34
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Tekopo posted:GW and FFG have ended their licensing agreement, for anyone interested. By the end of february next year no more GW licensed products will be available, which seems to include Talisman/Fury of Dracula etc. It was pretty obviously happening when the PDFs vanished albeit why they did it now rather than cash in on people snapping things up for completionism is a little baffling, possibly something in the contracts about it. We probably won't know if this is GW pulling them because they want to go in another direction, or FFG balking at an increased license cost but i'm going to guess the latter given GWs new 'sell licenses to everything' approach and probably thinking video game money rather than tabletop money for everything.
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Sep 9, 2016 16:37
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Evil Mastermind posted:"I have written a great deal over the years about the ‘greatest danger’ facing Games Workshop. It has usually been in response to the expression of some fear of imminent doom. When will the world tire of miniatures? (It won’t; these are not fashion items, they are hobby collectibles.) Won’t all your customers move on to computer games instead? (They didn’t; most of our current customers weren’t born when the Atari ST came out.) How about other games like Pokémon or role-playing games? (Who can remember them, now?). The evidence is there for all to see, but when it wasn’t I was seen as complacent in the face of these real dangers. I don’t think that was complacency, it’s just that we here all make a living from serving collectors and we understand them and their needs. These are paper tiger dangers. The real danger is us." - Tom Kirby, GW Chairman, 2013
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Sep 9, 2016 16:59
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MadScientistWorking posted:Is that the same chairman who whined about fake tokenism? Maybe? I never heard about that.
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Sep 9, 2016 17:00
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Tekopo posted:Also probably Fury of Dracula 2e as well. I really wish this game was as good as its premise. Also: all the talk about gear porn and no one mentioned Twilight: 2000, perhaps the greatest late 80s gear circlejerk in gaming? For shame!
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Sep 9, 2016 17:33
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Peas and Rice posted:I really wish this game was as good as its premise.
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Sep 9, 2016 17:39
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Tekopo posted:FoD 2e is certainly better than FoD 1e, but even that is not saying much. To be fair, I had a blast playing FoD 1e at GenCon circa... 2003 maybe? Then I bought it and tried to play it with my group and it was a total mess. It feels like a game that would be awesome to play with someone who knows it inside and out and was dedicated to helping you learn (see: a demo volunteer at GenCon) but is otherwise terrible to try to learn on your own.
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Sep 9, 2016 17:56
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The problem with the 1e game is that the combat is crap, and ends up being "Okay, in this combat nothing happens, next round, also nothing happens". The fact that you both have a card selection mechanism but still have to use dice to resolve the combat is crap. Just be brave and just design the game around the cards being the only thing you need to resolve combat.
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Sep 9, 2016 18:00
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Evil Mastermind posted:Maybe? I never heard about that.
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Sep 9, 2016 20:00
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Tekopo posted:The problem with the 1e game is that the combat is crap, and ends up being "Okay, in this combat nothing happens, next round, also nothing happens". The fact that you both have a card selection mechanism but still have to use dice to resolve the combat is crap. Just be brave and just design the game around the cards being the only thing you need to resolve combat. That's exactly how it is in the new edition? There's no dice at all, just card playing and cancellations. It makes Dracula scary for a hunter in one on one fights, but if the hunters gang up he should really flee. And sometimes either side has a nasty trick up their sleeve. It's tense and fast to do. Anyways, poor Fury of Dracula just cannot stay in print. I love the new one, personally. We used the Sit Down and Shut Up video to get our bearings for the first game. I still made some mistakes as Dracula so the hunters had an easier time but it was a lot of fun. The second playthrough (like most FFG games in my experience) was much smoother.
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Sep 9, 2016 23:19
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My problem with Fury of Dracula is that every time we played it, I wished we were playing Scotland Yard instead.
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Sep 9, 2016 23:24
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Evil Mastermind posted:"How about other games like Pokémon or role-playing games? (Who can remember them, now?)" - Tom Kirby, GW Chairman, 2013 "It's not like a formerly wildly popular property would ever regain it's former popularity by innovating in some way, that's for sure." - Tom Kirby, probably Edit: Although to be fair, I guess GW has innovated, just in increasingly terrible and stupid ways. DalaranJ fucked around with this message at 01:11 on Sep 10, 2016 |
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Sep 10, 2016 01:05
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It certainly took me some thinking to remember if I've ever even bought anything from GW. The answer is yes, I have a ratskin gang tucked away somewhere, but I'm pretty sure I purchased it second-hand... and that's all.
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Sep 10, 2016 01:10
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I've never directly given money to GW. I've bought some of the video games, on steam sale, so god only knows how much of that  made its way into their coffers.During the short period of time that I was interested in minis I didn't buy any GW because the the local players were all catpissmen.
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Sep 10, 2016 01:15
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Oh yeah, I have some the Dawn of War games, and somebody gifted me Space Marine, but those were all pretty fun. Whenever I got into a minis game (Necromunda, VOR) it was cancelled in short order and with the amount of work it takes to put an army together just caused me to toss my hands up and conclude it wasn't for me.
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Sep 10, 2016 01:19
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So, apologies to Brainiac Five, I think I understand what you mean now, and aaaaaaaaaa I finally understand why the Sons of Ether leave a bad taste in people's mouth. Ew. Goddamn "pulp" is literally the most distasteful thing in the world, and using it to describe good things is an evil act. Really, really sorry. 
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Sep 10, 2016 01:49
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Monster Hunter is a really crunchy game system that I love where you have huge gear lists that contain very, very meaningful mechanical choices. Of how to fashion up appropriately of course, nevermind about those armor skills. But seriously while MH has some few choices that are sort of 'ultimately optimal', they're actually hard to get within the game's economy, and they aren't really necessary for 99% of the game. The choice of weapon matters. Elemental damage vs. Raw and other considerations matter. Your playstyle changes with the weapon, which changes which armor is best. It all makes quite a lot of difference, and the gear has a lot of the game's personality in it. But that's cheating, it's a videogame that has millions of dollars of development time in it. For RPGs, GURPS has always done more or less what we needed it to do for crunchy stuff. For us, the fairly-lethal nature of combat suited the kinds of campaigns we were playing, and our GM applied a genre-appropriate touch to modify it towards the style we were going for at the time. Of course, I've played so much modified GURPS that I don't know if I actually know the base rules at all, like we used ritual magic rules pretty much exclusively.
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Sep 10, 2016 01:52
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Haystack posted:Serious question: What are some crunchy games/systems that you all think of when you think "good crunchy game," and why? 13th age. I love 13th age. I feel like it has a lot of the best elements of 4e and 3.5ed. It has plenty of crunch in terms of character abilities, but keeps it light with the neat narrative "one unique thing" and backgrounds systems (instead of ranked skills). The escalation mechanic is brilliant. It also seems to have pretty tight balancing, and all around good/interesting monster designs with giving monsters interesting different things they do a focus. I ran a weird west reskin on SA that was pretty fun.
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Sep 10, 2016 02:41
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Haystack posted:Serious question: What are some crunchy games/systems that you all think of when you think "good crunchy game," and why? Fantasy Craft, because most of the crunch is done purposefully, and there aren't a lot of "get +1 to hit" effects, but instead a lot of effects that broaden your capabilities or give you definitive advantages in different areas. It also is a strong example of a game where different equipment and weapons are very distinct, and even things like your food can give you small buffs. Double Cross, for your ability to customize your powers and "fighting style" within the game's themes. Though it requires some degree of system mastery, it's a lot of fun to play around with, and it's probably the best example of being both evocative and mechanically tight. 13th Age, mostly for being a light combat game where your choices are interesting without being overwhelming. While it's got its balance issues, the worst elements are easily fixed with house rules, and doesn't constrict overtly.
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Sep 10, 2016 03:15
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Alien Rope Burn posted:13th Age, mostly for being a light combat game where your choices are interesting without being overwhelming. While it's got its balance issues, the worst elements are easily fixed with house rules, and doesn't constrict overtly. Out of personal curiosity, what sorts of things would you say are 13th Age's worst elements and where might one check out prospective house rules and the like to tidy things up?
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Sep 10, 2016 03:18
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Alien Rope Burn posted:Fantasy Craft, because most of the crunch is done purposefully, and there aren't a lot of "get +1 to hit" effects, but instead a lot of effects that broaden your capabilities or give you definitive advantages in different areas. It also is a strong example of a game where different equipment and weapons are very distinct, and even things like your food can give you small buffs. Double Cross is fantastic but yeah it has a steep learning curve for new players. My favorite crunch game remains Tenra Bansho Zero though, it's got good worldbuilding and the template system makes it easy to build a mechanically solid character quickly.
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Sep 10, 2016 03:22
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GaistHeidegger posted:Out of personal curiosity, what sorts of things would you say are 13th Age's worst elements and where might one check out prospective house rules and the like to tidy things up? The one that keeps coming up is that while the Fighter (and possibly the Rogue?) get to consistently do things besides auto-attack every turn, the design and in-practice output of these abilities still leaves something to be desired. It's not as bad as 3rd Edition's "a bonus feat every other level" model of Fighter design, but it doesn't get up to the levels of the 4th Edition Fighter, either. The Monk is also another example of the design team still playing conservatively, as far as it getting nerfed over and over from the playtest phase to the final release of 13 True Ways.
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Sep 10, 2016 03:26
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GaistHeidegger posted:Out of personal curiosity, what sorts of things would you say are 13th Age's worst elements and where might one check out prospective house rules and the like to tidy things up? I have played a Sorcerer several times, and the early Breath spells scale very badly as you level. My solution was to add one target each tier, which makes their average damage be roughly on par with the later spells of equivalent level. Chromatic Destroyer bloodline talent is unsalvageable, though.
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Sep 10, 2016 03:28
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gradenko_2000 posted:The one that keeps coming up is that while the Fighter (and possibly the Rogue?) get to consistently do things besides auto-attack every turn, the design and in-practice output of these abilities still leaves something to be desired. It's not as bad as 3rd Edition's "a bonus feat every other level" model of Fighter design, but it doesn't get up to the levels of the 4th Edition Fighter, either. Melee classes in general got a bit boned in 13th age. Except for the barbarian, which is vicious. 13th Age is still good for a crunchy game to me. I'll also throw in support for Tenra Bansho Zero as far as being interesting fun and crunchy. Spellbound Kingdoms hasn't been mentioned yet but that's also a great crunchy game. I particularly like how each class table has a cumulative list of what powers, stat boosts, etc they'd have at each level in case you want to start at a level above 1.
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Sep 10, 2016 04:06
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Alien Rope Burn posted:Fantasy Craft, because most of the crunch is done purposefully, and there aren't a lot of "get +1 to hit" effects, but instead a lot of effects that broaden your capabilities or give you definitive advantages in different areas. It also is a strong example of a game where different equipment and weapons are very distinct, and even things like your food can give you small buffs. I'm just going to second this. Fantasy Craft is probably the best take on that 3.5 style of mechanics where there's a billion different moving parts that fit together in really interesting ways. I'm probably never going to play it because you need to read through the whole book to really understand how all the mechanical pieces of your character fit together and that makes it a really hard sell, but I still love all the distinct bits of crunch you get to play with.
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Sep 10, 2016 06:03
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I remember hearing that Spycraft was pretty good for what it was, too. Does it still hold up?
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Sep 10, 2016 13:42
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Spycraft 2.0 was pretty decent, but the good parts got used in Fantasy Craft.
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Sep 10, 2016 14:23
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GaistHeidegger posted:Out of personal curiosity, what sorts of things would you say are 13th Age's worst elements and where might one check out prospective house rules and the like to tidy things up? I'd actually suggest going to the 13th Age thread for that kind of thing. Usually I would give Druids an extra talent and nix evocation just off the top of my head but I'm pretty sure they have better suggestions. Lurks With Wolves posted:I'm just going to second this. Fantasy Craft is probably the best take on that 3.5 style of mechanics where there's a billion different moving parts that fit together in really interesting ways. Fantasy Craft is the game that most 3.5 players should have graduated to, in my opinion, if they weren't up for the tactics elements of 4e. I don't think it's significantly more complicated than 3.5, having run it for a year, it's just that none of the mechanics are meaningless compared to, say, rules for berms or commoners or fighters. Nuns with Guns posted:I remember hearing that Spycraft was pretty good for what it was, too. Does it still hold up? Spycraft 2.0 almost makes my list but it's the epitome of a system just trying to do way, way too much. Because of that, it has a ridiculous amount of fiddly bits and bloat even within the corebook, from players dictating subplots to the complicated equipment purchasing system to the hugely complicated damage types. Hell, it has rules for additional damage when you set off an explosive in a confined space as opposed to an open area. The whole dramatic conflict mechanic is pretty amazing, but it's also like trying to learn a whole new combat system each time for everything from chases to hacking to seduction. It's an amazing game but not a particularly practical one for most groups, I think. Fantasy Craft dialed that system back a lot and showed how much they'd learned about elegance in design since 2.0 came out. I'd love to play it but I think most folks would sensibly balk at the amount of material involved.
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Sep 10, 2016 14:52
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Slightly off topic but any industry goons at the Alliance Open House this weekend? Always cool to see the new stuff companies are putting out.
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Sep 10, 2016 19:46
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Alien Rope Burn posted:It certainly took me some thinking to remember if I've ever even bought anything from GW. The answer is yes, I have a ratskin gang tucked away somewhere, but I'm pretty sure I purchased it second-hand... and that's all. I still own (and used to play): Judge Dredd RPG (original) 40K 1e-3e Blood Bowl 1e Talisman Golden Heroes RPG WFRP 1e Block Mania Stormbringer and a poo poo ton of computer games up to Dawn of War II: Retribution. Alien Rope Burn posted:
Spycraft 2.0 is fantastic and I've both run and played it with grim and gritty and Hollywood big budget action style campaigns, its fiddly bits are why I love it so much. The dramatic conflictt system is a lot easier if you print out the cards and sleeve them. Humbug Scoolbus fucked around with this message at 20:01 on Sep 10, 2016 |
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Sep 10, 2016 19:57
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Humbug Scoolbus posted:Spycraft 2.0 is fantastic and I've both run and played it with grim and gritty and Hollywood big budget action style campaigns, its fiddly bits are why I love it so much. The dramatic conflictt system is a lot easier if you print out the cards and sleeve them. Spycraft 2.0 is the d20 Modern GURPS. If you're comfortable with all the moving pieces and have a good group of players, you can make a really fun game that isn't bogged down in numbers and charts. Especially if you have proper cheat sheets for everything that summarize the charts in a much more interactive way. Unfortunately, if you don't prep well for it, it can get bogged down quickly. I'm surprised no one ever made a Spycraft 2.0 Lite at some point. Or even a 13th Age-style Ode To Spycraft.
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Sep 10, 2016 20:10
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thelazyblank posted:Unfortunately, if you don't prep well for it, it can get bogged down quickly. I'm surprised no one ever made a Spycraft 2.0 Lite at some point. Or even a 13th Age-style Ode To Spycraft. Spycraft 3rd Edition was supposed to be this, but has vanished into the well of dev hell, seemingly.
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Sep 10, 2016 20:16
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thelazyblank posted:Spycraft 2.0 is the d20 Modern GURPS. If you're comfortable with all the moving pieces and have a good group of players, you can make a really fun game that isn't bogged down in numbers and charts. Especially if you have proper cheat sheets for everything that summarize the charts in a much more interactive way. A Spycraft 3, using learned lessons from Fantasy Craft was announced some years ago, but as I hadn't heard anything since, I assume its a long dead project. Edit: Apparently it's still in production. Even had some Gencon presence. Project started in 2010. remusclaw fucked around with this message at 20:22 on Sep 10, 2016 |
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Sep 10, 2016 20:17
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I remember there being kickstarter rumblings at the end of 2015. But yeah, it seems like Crafty needs to make money first or something, riding the Mistborn wave IIRC.
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Sep 10, 2016 21:17
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Yeah, I played in one of the demos they ran in 2014, and apparently they were running a few Spycraft 3rd games this year at GenCon, but they've kind of had a habit of being unable to deliver on most of their proposed products (that aren't Mistborn) for awhile. I don't know if it's a money issue or a perfect is the enemy of the good issue or both but the end result is I stopped paying attention to what they promise and just hope they get their act together in the future to deliver something tangible. Still got that preorder for Spellbound, after all. 
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Sep 10, 2016 23:27
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thelazyblank posted:Spycraft 2.0 is the d20 Modern GURPS. If you're comfortable with all the moving pieces and have a good group of players, you can make a really fun game that isn't bogged down in numbers and charts. Especially if you have proper cheat sheets for everything that summarize the charts in a much more interactive way. Why the gently caress would you want to simplify it?
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Sep 11, 2016 02:12
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Humbug Scoolbus posted:Why the gently caress would you want to simplify it? Let me introduce you to table 4.7, which shows you the list of what to find in tables 4.9-4.61 which take up just under 50 pages worth of book space. That's not even the whole gear section. They have a table (4.70) to distinguish the differences between various known diseases. The skill lists are a mess of synergies that give specific skill usages the benefits without making it easy to tell what does what from just a character sheet. The game as it is now rewards people for making nonsense class picks (hello Scientist!) for various benefits, and involves so many moving parts that I don't know how anyone plays the thing without some form of house-ruling or ignoring like a quarter of the book. It's just 450+ pages of data overload that could probably make a better game at 250 if they didn't drag over as many d20-isms and pared down the skill list, along with not differentiating between goddamn submarines. It's got enough good parts that I'd probably still play it again at some point, but right now, checking out the chart to see which chart has the information I want for this specific action seems like actual work rather than sitting down and enjoying a game. Maybe if I didn't have a job that was basically 90% excel and excel-like work, I'd feel different. But there's just so much extra d20 cruft that just takes away the enjoyment of the game that most people probably wouldn't actually miss.
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Sep 11, 2016 03:22
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Wasn't there a Back to Basics book for Spycraft?
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Sep 11, 2016 03:47
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Yes, though it's probably not at all what you're thinking. It converted the "basic" classes from d20 Modern to the Spycraft 2.0 system.
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Sep 11, 2016 04:04
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thelazyblank posted:Let me introduce you to table 4.7, which shows you the list of what to find in tables 4.9-4.61 which take up just under 50 pages worth of book space. That's not even the whole gear section. They have a table (4.70) to distinguish the differences between various known diseases. The skill lists are a mess of synergies that give specific skill usages the benefits without making it easy to tell what does what from just a character sheet. The game as it is now rewards people for making nonsense class picks (hello Scientist!) for various benefits, and involves so many moving parts that I don't know how anyone plays the thing without some form of house-ruling or ignoring like a quarter of the book. It's just 450+ pages of data overload that could probably make a better game at 250 if they didn't drag over as many d20-isms and pared down the skill list, along with not differentiating between goddamn submarines. I've made the acquaintance of all the tables and find them easy to use. Granted I started playing silly games in the mid-70s.
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Sep 11, 2016 05:14
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