|
The iron Druid series has a fifteen hundred year old main character who is essentially:
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2016 01:08
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 16, 2024 16:51 |
|
|
Yeah, when I mention Urban Fantasy that I've read or I'm reading, I leave it off the list because I'm slightly ashamed. That said, I'm sure I'll buy the next one in the series as soon as it comes out. I'm also ashamed to say I read Kim Harrison's Hollows series all the way through, which is more embarrassing by a country mile.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2016 01:58
|
|
|
Wizchine posted:Yeah, when I mention Urban Fantasy that I've read or I'm reading, I leave it off the list because I'm slightly ashamed. That said, I'm sure I'll buy the next one in the series as soon as it comes out. I'm also ashamed to say I read Kim Harrison's Hollows series all the way through, which is more embarrassing by a country mile. Hahah, no way I got you beat. Way back when, I read the entire series of The Morganville Vampires series despite literally hating everything about it - the author thinks stockholm syndrome is a main character trait, for instance, lovely YA poo poo romance, mary sue-isms, and bullshit everything else, idgaf. It was an absolute trainwreck of an abomination but I hated it not because of literally everything about it, but because for maybe one page of the three hundred per book there'd be some amazing possibilities and story potential. It was of course squandered and shat on by the author, but I still read on for my own sake, rather than the story itself. The amazing part( Anyways, that's my heavily edited story about why I'm still kinda salty about reading a lovely YA vampire series. But also, to anyone thinking about it, don't read the Iron Druid series. Read the Bartimaeus trilogy or something; those are really good. Drifter fucked around with this message at 04:43 on Sep 10, 2016 |
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2016 04:38
|
|
|
Drifter posted:The iron Druid series has a fifteen hundred year old main character who is essentially: This is perfect. I read the first 4 books as it kept degrading. I couldn't keep doing it as I hate the main characters and the drat dog. I have a friend that loves the books and Kevin Hearne. I cringe every time he posts about it. I like the Faust stuff and I love the Chequy files. Been moving into more hard SciFi but keep coming back to UF. I tried the Invisible Library and it was okay. Just didn't grab me.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2016 09:33
|
|
|
Just started The Bloody Red Baron and Newman has put in two obscure references which I nonetheless got and am very entertained by: Captain Spenser who hammers nails into his head, and the stretcher-bearer Godfrey whose credited as being as brave as any man injured in combat.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2016 14:47
|
|
|
Wheat Loaf posted:Just started The Bloody Red Baron and Newman has put in two obscure references which I nonetheless got and am very entertained by: Captain Spenser who hammers nails into his head, and the stretcher-bearer Godfrey whose credited as being as brave as any man injured in combat. This reminded me of Stilleto and the blink-and-you'd-miss it 'reveal' that "The Island of Dr. Moreau" was actually a rogue Grafter operation. I actually did a double-take at that one.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2016 20:00
|
|
|
I'm disappointed that he doesn't suggest in the annotations that the Godfrey in question is indeed the Dad's Army character, but Newman was a kid in the 1970s so I feel it's fairly safe to assume he is. Also enjoy the cameo of one Lt. Jay Gatz as an American officer stationed in Paris. The Pinhead is definitely the cleverest yet, in my view.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2016 22:58
|
|
|
anilEhilated posted:Oh, just because you folks mention it - just how bad is the Pax Arcana series with regards to romance? I've heard the books are good but I don't really handle romance subplots the best; how is it compared to stuff like Dresden, Faust and the rest of the usual UF suspects?
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2016 23:30
|
|
|
Drifter posted:The iron Druid series has a fifteen hundred year old main character who is essentially: So, I finished off the audio version of Cold Days last night and decided to finally start The Iron Druid. Having listened to the first eight chapters of the book, I would say that comparison is uncharitable. To Poochie. What drives Atticus? What is his primary motivation? Survival? It isn't really reflected in his personality. He's trying to stay hidden, but he owns a shop that sells magical goods and services. He says he lives in fear of the fae and a number of other things, but he goes off into the wilds to hunt and stuff on the reg. He's a fifteen-hundred year old being with Godlike power, just riding around on his mountain bike and clucking his tongue at stoners. Like in the first five minutes of the book he chumps a bunch of supernatural beings, makes a deal with death to be even more immortal, and sleeps with a Goddess, but he can't make a body disappear? Or do anything about DNA left on a corpse? What?
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2016 02:46
|
|
|
NerdyMcNerdNerd posted:Like in the first five minutes of the book he chumps a bunch of supernatural beings, makes a deal with death to be even more immortal, and sleeps with a Goddess, but he can't make a body disappear? Or do anything about DNA left on a corpse? What? Also, you poor bastard. At least tell me you're going to not read them anymore. 
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2016 03:32
|
|
|
NerdyMcNerdNerd posted:What drives Atticus? What is his primary motivation? Survival? It isn't really reflected in his personality. He's trying to stay hidden, but he owns a shop that sells magical goods and services. He says he lives in fear of the fae and a number of other things, but he goes off into the wilds to hunt and stuff on the reg. He's a fifteen-hundred year old being with Godlike power, just riding around on his mountain bike and clucking his tongue at stoners. This is addressed to various extents in later books.
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2016 05:21
|
|
|
Drifter posted:It's not abotu what magic CAN do, it's what it can't that makes the story interesting!!! The whole thing was frustrating to parse. My first thought was, "Well, he's an ancient druid or something that has a weird relationship with Death. Maybe make it so he can't destroy the body ( and the evidence ) because tampering with the dead would be seen by Morrigan as stepping on her territory, or maybe he swore some kind of geis or whatever. Hey, I bet that would make it kind of interesting if he ever had to fight some vampires or something." But no, he just can't magic away the problem because...? And the God can't, because...? And then the cops make it out onto the harsh terrain in like five minutes and they're worried about being caught even though the God can literally turn them invisible. I am willing to bet that before the book is over he uses his magical charm necklace to do something that could have easily disposed of that body. And yet, that Huntress God he was chilling with was kind of neat, as was Morrigan. And there's a viking lawyer who is also a vampire, and thinks Thor is a dick ( because he is ). When the camera starts to drift away from Atticus, I start kind of getting interested in the book. But then he puts down his hacky sack, strolls out into the street and casually smites a God with Scooby Doo
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2016 05:30
|
|
|
You think that is bad, wait until he goes lolcats at a Roman god. I'll agree the surrounding mytholos/fantasy stuff is good - the Celtic pantheon feels pretty fresh and there are some interesting takes on more commonly used mythologies. But god, the protagonists are an extremely unlikeable bunch of pricks. There's one that could be an exception but he shows up way late and apparently he's a one-trick pony as far as character growth (or lack of thereof) goes. edit: On a side note, I'm about 80% through Charming and it's kinda meh. Competently done, but nothing too interesting, the the story is really weak (there's a super vampire, whatever shall we do) and everything can be resolved by the main character waving his hanzo steel around. anilEhilated fucked around with this message at 07:09 on Sep 11, 2016 |
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2016 07:02
|
|
|
To be fair, he's at his smarmiest and most unfocused in the first book, and he delves into most of the stuff you are pointing out in later books, actually. Keep in mind there's always going to be some amount of cheese, though.
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2016 07:08
|
|
|
anilEhilated posted:You think that is bad, wait until he goes lolcats at a Roman god. You'll be waiting long time because this doesn't happen. He does do it to his vampire lawyer, though, but in grand goon tradition, an awkward and embarrassing couple of lines have been made to sound as if they fill hundreds of pages of text.
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2016 15:06
|
|
|
I thought he talked about Dionysus' panther-pulled carriage? If not, I'm so sorry I got this incredibly important detail wrong. Anyhow, yes, it's just a couple of lines, but it's pretty symptomatic of what's wrong with the series as whole. Well, one of the things, anyway - completely cringeworthy jokes presented as cool and endearing. The dog is another great example of that.
anilEhilated fucked around with this message at 16:18 on Sep 11, 2016 |
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2016 16:14
|
|
|
anilEhilated posted:I thought he talked about Dionysus' panther-pulled carriage? If not, I'm so sorry I got this incredibly important detail wrong. Anyhow, yes, it's just a couple of lines, but it's pretty symptomatic of what's wrong with the series as whole. Well, one of the things, anyway - completely cringeworthy jokes presented as cool and endearing. The dog is another great example of that. That's always been my point when pushing back against the lolcats stuff: there's more than enough to criticize in the books themselves without having to blow a minor joke that didn't land so far out of proportion that people that have only heard about the books through this thread (or the sci-fi thread when it swerves into urban fantasy discussion) assume every page of every book is just full of lolcats. Criticize all you want, just try to be accurate when you do  .
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2016 16:37
|
|
|
Atticus is the worst thing about the world his stories take place in. Oberon gets a pass because he's a stupid dog.
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2016 16:50
|
|
|
Stupid nerdy rulemongering libriomancer question: At some point I think it was said there was no need to lock large objects, because they were too big to let libriomancers pull them out of a book. Now that there is at least one person that can use e-readers, what is stopping them from using a stadium screen setup as an e-reader and pulling out spaceships?
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2016 19:26
|
|
|
Ika posted:Stupid nerdy rulemongering libriomancer question: At some point I think it was said there was no need to lock large objects, because they were too big to let libriomancers pull them out of a book. Now that there is at least one person that can use e-readers, what is stopping them from using a stadium screen setup as an e-reader and pulling out spaceships?
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2016 19:40
|
|
|
Wade Wilson posted:Oberon gets a pass because he's a stupid dog. Oberon is weird because his tone ( much like the tone of the story itself ) shifts more than a few times in strange ways that made me go "Huh?" If his dialogue had been trimmed a bit, he probably would have been a better character. Having finished the first book, I'm not running off to get the second. I'd grab it during a sale, or on KU, but eh. I'm kind of interested in the world and what's going on and all that stuff, just not so much Atticus. That's kind of a shame, because I love reading about myths and folklore and Gods kind of being dicks. Maybe the next books get better as the author finds his feet. Jim did. 
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2016 20:24
|
|
|
NerdyMcNerdNerd posted:Having finished the first book, I'm not running off to get the second. I'd grab it during a sale, or on KU, but eh. I'm kind of interested in the world and what's going on and all that stuff, just not so much Atticus. That's kind of a shame, because I love reading about myths and folklore and Gods kind of being dicks. Maybe the next books get better as the author finds his feet. Jim did. The second book is worse than the first book, and the third book is loving horrible. After that, things start picking up, but by then Hearne has dug a pretty deep hole.
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2016 20:43
|
|
|
There are some good moments in Iron Druid, and it manages to level out at readable but not great for a bit, but it got really bad and that made me stop. The overall trend is from "okay, I guess" to plain horrible. I did like his depiction of Coyote, but that's all that stands out as great to me.
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2016 21:09
|
|
|
Ornamented Death posted:The second book is worse than the first book, and the third book is loving horrible. After that, things start picking up, but by then Hearne has dug a pretty deep hole. How? I'm genuinely curious. Is it the prose? Cringey character moments, or what?
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2016 21:19
|
|
|
NerdyMcNerdNerd posted:How? I'm genuinely curious. Is it the prose? Cringey character moments, or what? The story and characters just aren't good through book 3. Atticus acts more and more like a manchild and it gets grating. To be fair to Hearne, at least some of that is intentional because the next couple of books feature a LOT of characters telling Atticus what a useless piece of poo poo he's been and how he's hosed everything up.
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2016 21:22
|
|
|
I'm not saying the first three were great, but I enjoyed them more than anything else in the series. I in no way believe that it improves as time goes on. Honestly, the longer the series goes, the more obvious it is that he doesn't know how to write a coherent story. When he starts adding additional POV characters, it makes no sense. Hey, the threat of Armageddon is looming, let's tell some side stories now!
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2016 21:41
|
|
|
OneTwentySix posted:The end of the series. Or that it was a brand new ability no one had before, so it's implications hadn't been fully thought through by the characters.
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2016 22:54
|
|
|
The libriomancer series so far is on the edge of addressing that very question.
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2016 03:31
|
|
|
Wade Wilson posted:The libriomancer series so far is on the edge of addressing that very question. I want to say he third book brought it up in the text. I'm fairly sure I remember what's her name saying that she wanted to try projecting her e-reader onto a theater screen so she could pull out a spaceship to go to/colonize Mars with.
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2016 17:42
|
|
|
The Libriomancer series is interesting because it is actually exploring what would happen if magic, long-hidden from the muggles through some large-scale conspiracy of powerful actors, were suddenly thrust upon the world. Libriomancy is a very powerful--ridiculously so, frankly!--form of magic, as it can literally pull anything out of any book that's been read by enough people. D&D manuals are weapons of mass destruction. Sci-fi books can give us the stars. Horrors and monstrosities can crawl out from the pages and destroy us all. And so on. The series gets really interesting once it starts exploring the ramifications of that.
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2016 17:58
|
|
|
The Libriomancer books also get points (well, IMO anyway) for referencing other books. D&D manuals get mentioned, and at one point a super-speed potion is pulled out of a Heinlein book, complete with psuedo-science about how the drinker has to be careful to not scour their skin off from air friction. Also the healing potion from Narnia gets used a lot. The only real stumble the books make is the dryad side character, but the second and third books correct a lot of the 'literally there to be a sex object' stuff about her. And you get really interesting plot points like vampires stockpiling blood banks in satellites or the Merlin and everything about those automatons  e: And let's not forget that in the Libriomancer universe vampires really can sparkle - because some idiot put their hand in a Twilight book and got bitten 
WarLocke fucked around with this message at 18:15 on Sep 12, 2016 |
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2016 18:12
|
|
|
WarLocke posted:e: And let's not forget that in the Libriomancer universe vampires really can sparkle - because some idiot put their hand in a Twilight book and got bitten Aren't there multiple types of vampires in that world to account for all the different sorts in fiction?
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2016 18:18
|
|
|
Ornamented Death posted:Aren't there multiple types of vampires in that world to account for all the different sorts in fiction? Yeah, I just thought the Twilight thing was funny in context. It's a really good series and it does 'power creep' well (the main character at the end of the third book is very notably more 'powerful' than in the first, but he really pays for it (off the top of my head he charred his eyeballs and now can't see normally for poo poo, the last half of the third book he's basically navigating by magesight or whatever).
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2016 18:23
|
|
|
WarLocke posted:The only real stumble the books make is the dryad side character, but the second and third books correct a lot of the 'literally there to be a sex object' stuff about her. Keep in mind that the "literally a sex object" dryad isn't some nerd wish fantasy made flesh by a stereotypical male author for some sort of male gaze. Jim Hines is an accredited rape counselor, very vocal on the subject, and has even gone to bat against the likes of Larry "women are to be protected by their superior men" Correia. He wrote the character with a purpose and it comes out over the course of the books. Of course even if a character is written in a specific way with an intent to subvert and cast light on a particular subject it doesn't change that it still reads that way until the change. Plus you shouldn't really need external backstory to understand something. It's just that Jim Hines is exactly not the sort of guy to just blindly make a sex object character.
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2016 20:23
|
|
|
Mortanis posted:Keep in mind that the "literally a sex object" dryad isn't some nerd wish fantasy made flesh by a stereotypical male author for some sort of male gaze. Jim Hines is an accredited rape counselor, very vocal on the subject, and has even gone to bat against the likes of Larry "women are to be protected by their superior men" Correia. He wrote the character with a purpose and it comes out over the course of the books. Him not trying to do it doesn't mean he succeeds. I couldn't get past the second book because it was so bad about it. Not just the sexist fantasy part (which was intentional) but the fawning way she treats the main character. Maybe it gets better in the third book but I loathed the second book so much I couldn't get to the third and it was almost entirely because of her. Maybe the third book makes it better. I freely admit it could. In which case I can only say he shouldn't have made it take three books. However in the first two books she's the worst. She's a powerful and sexy and yet vulnerable and abused woman who just needs the right nebbish nerd who treats her with an iota of respect to become hopelessly entangled with. The backstory about that being the end result of her being created to be that could be interesting if I ever felt like they were subverting it instead of trying to give the protagonist a pat on the back for not abusing her. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 20:32 on Sep 12, 2016 |
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2016 20:28
|
|
|
I also think that part of the problem with the character in question is that Hines just wasn't a good enough writer in the first book to get his point across effectively. I re-read the books a couple months ago, and it absolutely lays the groundwork for all of the characters to be absolutely disgusted by the circumstances of that character's creation, life, and future. He goes for the subtle approach in the first book, but I feel it just whooshes past because it's too subtle. I missed it myself on the first read. A few lines here, a little soliloquy there, but not a lot of force or focus on it. It's present as a (sad, unfortunate) fact, but isn't really dealt with. He gets into the hosed-up nature of it all a lot harder in the second book. I'm not sure if he grew as a writer or if he deliberately brought it to the forefront, but it feels like a bit of both. The problem is met head-on and, if not resolved, thoroughly explored. In the third book, it's back to just being part of the character's history and nature. Back to the subtle understanding that none of the other characters like it and will actively empower and support her to avoid regressing to that fate. The subtle approach works better in the third book than the first, because we've already dealt with it in a more explicit manner in book 2.
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2016 20:33
|
|
|
Oh, no, I'm not saying he does it well or anything. Just that, given his background, he didn't just write the character like that randomly or obliviously. Whether he succeeded in doing what he set out for is a different matter. Author intent doesn't necessarily mean skilled execution. I just think it's an important distinction to make, even if maybe that kinda fell flat in how it was done.
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2016 20:40
|
|
|
Also by the end of the third book she may still be a sex dryad but she's a sex dryad who can cover herself in bark armor and sprout wood spikes all over and wreck your rear end if you make a pass at her. So I guess I'm agreeing, she definitely isn't the cliche she is first presented as, it's just that the first book (as mentioned above) is a little too subtle in the deconstruction.
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2016 20:41
|
|
|
I can not think of a single urban fantasy or fantasy book where I wasn't left cringing and desperately wishing that the author hadn't gone down that particular path.
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2016 21:01
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 16, 2024 16:51 |
|
|
NerdyMcNerdNerd posted:I can not think of a single urban fantasy or fantasy book where I wasn't left cringing and desperately wishing that the author hadn't gone down that particular path. You have to go pretty far back. LeGuin's Earthsea books are pretty good about it, IIRC. I should read those again, actually.
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2016 21:03
|
|