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Captain Bravo posted:Ehh, I kind of like how it all turned out actually. The whole point of Otto was that he was convinced he was better than Peter, and he wanted to prove it. Everything he did was to try and out-Spiderman Spiderman. He made better gadgets, he made boatloads of money, he streamlined and increased efficiency across the board... but he was still a terrible Spiderman because he just didn't get being a genuinely good guy. Leaving aside the terrible, terrible attempts at banter, he was too cold, calculating, and off-putting to be as good as Peter. I never looked at it that way, and now that moment is even better.
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Sep 12, 2016 02:18
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Skwirl posted:I don't think anywhere in America has laws about safely storing weapons. Some areas do, mostly cities and counties rather than states, but the discussion really belongs in TFR where "funny panels" means the one dude's glow-in-the-dark HYDRA-logo pistol grips. Unrelated: 
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Sep 12, 2016 02:22
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There's something annoying about comments like "Don't say we're not good to you" That feels a little like they can't just let it be a silly thing, they have to be aware it's a silly thing and make you aware they're doing this silly thing for you.
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Sep 12, 2016 04:50
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Since the spock discussion is kind of taking a tangent away from "Funny Panels", I posted a follow-up with more pages in the "Touching/Inspidering( ) Panels" thread.http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3410145&pagenumber=122#post464164092
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Sep 12, 2016 05:56
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Captain Bravo posted:Ehh, I kind of like how it all turned out actually. The whole point of Otto was that he was convinced he was better than Peter, and he wanted to prove it. Everything he did was to try and out-Spiderman Spiderman. He made better gadgets, he made boatloads of money, he streamlined and increased efficiency across the board... but he was still a terrible Spiderman because he just didn't get being a genuinely good guy. Leaving aside the terrible, terrible attempts at banter, he was too cold, calculating, and off-putting to be as good as Peter. This was a really good post, and made me reconsider my thinking on the issue.  Skwirl posted:We've already had one war about "state's rights" let's not have a second. 
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Sep 12, 2016 10:23
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Onmi posted:There's something annoying about comments like "Don't say we're not good to you" They used to do stuff like this fairly regularly, like a small caption at the bottom of the page saying "we didn't want to clutter up this great page with dialogue or sound effects". It was pretty unobtrusive, since as a regular Marvel reader, you get used to the editorial asides (like references to previous issues, which I miss) and they're not really part of the narrative flow. Why the "don't say we're not good to you" thing is a clunker is (1) because it's part of the narration and (2) it feels like a dumb little high-five to the sort of people who cluttered up internet comics commentary for years equating "fun" comics with a bunch of "cool" things all piled on top of each other, the "gently caress yeah, the Punisher riding a shark made of chainsaws". I like weird and wild stuff in comics a whole, whole lot! But I like it when it's just presented as something that's happening, without the fashionable layer of pandering to the smarks.
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Sep 12, 2016 13:50
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Pastry of the Year posted:They used to do stuff like this fairly regularly, like a small caption at the bottom of the page saying "we didn't want to clutter up this great page with dialogue or sound effects". It was pretty unobtrusive, since as a regular Marvel reader, you get used to the editorial asides (like references to previous issues, which I miss) and they're not really part of the narrative flow. I used to love it when they'd goof on the letterers for no good reason.  
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Sep 12, 2016 13:56
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Pastry of the Year posted:They used to do stuff like this fairly regularly, like a small caption at the bottom of the page saying "we didn't want to clutter up this great page with dialogue or sound effects". It was pretty unobtrusive, since as a regular Marvel reader, you get used to the editorial asides (like references to previous issues, which I miss) and they're not really part of the narrative flow. This is half of what set Marvel apart in the Silver Age, along with being (relatively) maturer and more complex. Marvel had personality and really distinguished themselves by connecting to the readers in a way DC never did at the time.
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Sep 12, 2016 14:04
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Captain Bravo posted:If Peter came back at that moment, through his own efforts, it would only prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Octavius had no redemption left. He doesn't, they totally ruined him, now he's some gross old man rapist playing with Peter's dick in the shower and he just needs to be dead forever.
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Sep 12, 2016 14:27
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Boogaleeboo posted:He doesn't, they totally ruined him, now he's some gross old man rapist playing with Peter's dick in the shower and he just needs to be dead forever. Yeah he had before swapping minds with Peter been planning to kill like 90% of Earth's population (leaving the last 10% alive to remember him as worse than Hitler and Stalin). Kind of hard to get behind a redemption narrative for that guy.
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Sep 12, 2016 15:17
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Yvonmukluk posted:Yeah he had before swapping minds with Peter been planning to kill like 90% of Earth's population (leaving the last 10% alive to remember him as worse than Hitler and Stalin). Kind of hard to get behind a redemption narrative for that guy. Wasn't he dying, and he wanted to screw over everyone else?
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Sep 12, 2016 15:33
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The two biggest storylines in Spider-Man's history where they try and get Spider-Man to a different place in terms of attitude and heroics were the Clone Saga and Superior Spider-Man and it's interesting that one tried to get him back to an older version and one ended up with him having his act together and being really successful in life. And both stories went about it by having someone else fill the Spider-Man role for a while.
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Sep 12, 2016 15:52
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Red posted:Wasn't he dying, and he wanted to screw over everyone else? That doesn't make it OK.
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Sep 12, 2016 17:52
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Lobok posted:The two biggest storylines in Spider-Man's history where they try and get Spider-Man to a different place in terms of attitude and heroics were the Clone Saga and Superior Spider-Man and it's interesting that one tried to get him back to an older version and one ended up with him having his act together and being really successful in life. And both stories went about it by having someone else fill the Spider-Man role for a while. Whatever you think of Slott's writing (  ) he at least had the luxury of not having 30 different people pulling and extending Superior in different contradictory directions out of his control.
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Sep 12, 2016 18:07
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Lurdiak posted:Whatever you think of Slott's writing ( Yeah, the Clone Saga and the Hobgoblin identity question are both very instructive lessons in why you should not drag out a mystery for too long because whoever started it might not be the same people who resolve it.
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Sep 12, 2016 18:13
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Yvonmukluk posted:That doesn't make it OK. Doesn't matter, because it's a friggin' Spider-Man story. Parker saves everyone, nobody is beyond redemption. That's like the second or third commandment of Spider-Man, you can't just go into a Spider-Man series and say "This guy deserves to die." That's one of the things that Otto fucks up doing.    Right now, you are the surly old man screaming "DO IT!" Do you want to be that old man? Nobody wants to be that old man.
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Sep 12, 2016 18:14
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But Superior Spider-Man proves that wrong. Otto is never redeemed. he only changes because he is going to lose something important to him and can't succeed on his own. If saving Anna meant murdering Peter again he would have done it in a heartbeat without qualms.
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Sep 12, 2016 19:03
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Look man, you can twist it all you want, but I think that 9 out of 10 people would agree that sacrificing your own life to save the life of the woman you love is an altruistic act.
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Sep 12, 2016 19:18
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Captain Bravo posted:Look man, you can twist it all you want, but I think that 9 out of 10 people would agree that sacrificing your own life to save the life of the woman you love is an altruistic act. Except he didn't really sacrifice his life because he's inside that robot now plotting his revenge.
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Sep 12, 2016 19:22
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You would think that this being a Spider-Man story, she would have died (even if only seemingly) and Ock would have learned a lesson like with Peter and Uncle Ben's death.
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Sep 12, 2016 19:24
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Lobok posted:You would think that this being a Spider-Man story, she would have died (even if only seemingly) and Ock would have learned a lesson like with Peter and Uncle Ben's death. Learning a life lesson implies that you will continue living after the fact. Also, I think it's kind of a dumb argument to say "His sacrifice doesn't count because he comes back later." This is the friggin' Marvel universe. Nobody stays dead. It's unfair to judge a work by the retcons that come after it. Edit: Nobody 
Captain Bravo fucked around with this message at 19:38 on Sep 12, 2016 |
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Sep 12, 2016 19:35
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Captain Bravo posted:Look man, you can twist it all you want, but I think that 9 out of 10 people would agree that sacrificing your own life to save the life of the woman you love is an altruistic act. Being altruistic doesn't make it redemptive. The difference is that Peter Parker would have given up his life to save a stranger. Otto would have not given the smallest poo poo if it wasn't the woman he loved and also wouldn't have considered anything he did wrong if he hadn't been forced into a very specific situation where she couldn't be rescued.
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Sep 12, 2016 19:38
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It's not really fair to Otto to say he's not redeemed because he doesn't become Peter Parker. I think you're meant to grade on a curve. That he could even consider self-sacrifice is the improvement.
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Sep 12, 2016 20:00
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SonicRulez posted:It's not really fair to Otto to say he's not redeemed because he doesn't become Peter Parker. Even if the whole story is about him supposedly trying to become better than Peter?
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Sep 12, 2016 20:02
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ImpAtom posted:Being altruistic doesn't make it redemptive. Uhh yeah the story is that an extremely selfish man did one selfless thing?
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Sep 12, 2016 20:04
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BROCK LESBIAN posted:Uhh yeah the story is that an extremely selfish man did one selfless thing? It worked for Darth Vader.
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Sep 12, 2016 20:05
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Captain Bravo posted:Learning a life lesson implies that you will continue living after the fact. Oh I know. I'm not saying Ock didn't show some growth. I'm just pointing out that he's far from dead.
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Sep 12, 2016 20:11
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Lobok posted:Even if the whole story is about him supposedly trying to become better than Peter? The whole point is that he fails to be a better Peter Parker than Peter Parker, but in the end learns to be a slightly better Otto Octavius.
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Sep 12, 2016 21:14
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Phylodox posted:The whole point is that he fails to be a better Peter Parker than Peter Parker, but in the end learns to be a slightly better Otto Octavius. Right, but for a character trying to be Spider-Man and for such a long story, ending up only slightly better feels weak.
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Sep 12, 2016 21:22
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Lobok posted:Right, but for a character trying to be Spider-Man and for such a long story, ending up only slightly better feels weak. It's a glimmer of hope, which I find way more poignant than some huge, flashy reversal. It's showing that he had the potential to actually grow and be better, but he only realized it moments before his death, so that potential will remain forever unfulfilled. Except that, of course, he'll be back and revert to a cackling villain because that's the nature of the medium, but there's nothing we can do about that.
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Sep 12, 2016 21:29
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Phylodox posted:It's a glimmer of hope, which I find way more poignant than some huge, flashy reversal. It's showing that he had the potential to actually grow and be better, but he only realized it moments before his death, so that potential will remain forever unfulfilled. Dude was brain damaged in his very first issue. He could use less metaphysical brain swapping and more psych meds.
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Sep 12, 2016 21:38
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I can't be the only one seeing the ironic parallels between this argument and the panels with Spock and the gun up above, right? Also sidebar, did they ever do any fallout for Pete, what with having him execute a man in cold blood in front of a crowd of witnesses? I can't imagine the police were too thrilled about that one...
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Sep 12, 2016 22:00
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Choco1980 posted:I can't be the only one seeing the ironic parallels between this argument and the panels with Spock and the gun up above, right? No the parallels are strong but I don't think any of us, or Peter, are advocating for Ock's death/ murder. As for the fallout IIRC witnesses included civilians and police who protected Spider-Man. Cops in particular were all like "oh I happened to have my back turned, didn't see nothing!"
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Sep 12, 2016 22:06
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If I remember correctly, by the end of the series Spider-Man's name is basically trashed completely. He's blamed for everything by the people who don't know about Peter Parker, and the people that do know are told about the Doc Ock thing so Pete's kind of given a little leeway. Otto had associated the parker name with Spider-Man through Parker Industries, but Peter made a public declaration after he came back that Parker Industries would not be working with Spider-Man anymore after the goblin incident.
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Sep 12, 2016 22:07
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They then immediately go back to publicly making stuff for Spider-Man.
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Sep 12, 2016 22:14
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I for one am in the crowd that think Otto made the right choice in recognizing he needed to turn things back over to Peter, regardless of the outcome of things. I don't know the source.
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Sep 12, 2016 23:46
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I just wanna think it's Hal being a dick to Aquaman. Or being as dumb as Guacamole.
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Sep 12, 2016 23:50
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Malachite_Dragon posted:I for one am in the crowd that think Otto made the right choice in recognizing he needed to turn things back over to Peter, regardless of the outcome of things. No umbrella for Batmang?
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Sep 12, 2016 23:50
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Malachite_Dragon posted:I for one am in the crowd that think Otto made the right choice in recognizing he needed to turn things back over to Peter, regardless of the outcome of things. The best part is that he made an umbrella for Aquaman but neglected to make Batman one.
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Sep 13, 2016 00:01
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bunnyofdoom posted:I just wanna think it's Hal being a dick to Aquaman. Or being as dumb as Guacamole. prefect posted:No umbrella for Batmang?  Green Lanterns have a long and proud history of being butts to Bats.
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Sep 13, 2016 00:01
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