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Apraxin posted:Even by 1920s standards he was really, really racist. Like, Robert E. Howard, who's views on race were more typical of the era, became more liberal and sympathetic to non-whites in his later works, and that's partly attributed to him corresponding with Lovecraft and realizing 'holy poo poo I don't want to be like him'. I remember reading through a collection of Conan stories and getting gradually more and more disgusted until I hit The Vale of Lost Women and just had to stop. That story packs an amazing double-whammy of the extreme sexism typical of Howard's stories and some extreme 'darkest heart of Africa' racism. There was a really interesting interview on Fresh Air a while back with Victor LaValle about his novella The Ballad of Black Tom and how he wrote it to sort of reconcile his childhood love of H.P. Lovecraft stories with his his being a black man who realized as an adult how super racist Lovecraft was. He had this somewhat sympathetic take on Lovecraft too; that he was basically a guy who went around all his life absolutely terrified of nearly everything and everyone, and that his xenophobia was one of his many, many phobias. Not an excuse for someone being a horrible racist, but I thought it was an interesting explanation.
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Sep 13, 2016 03:58
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anilEhilated posted:Which story you're on? If you have the omnibus edition, you'll get to do plenty of just that in the short stories. The three longer pieces it starts with are plenty interesting on their own but the first one kinda drags on. I have the omnibus that intersperses short stories with the novels in some approximation of chronological order -- the 2000 UK edition, I think? I'm about a quarter of the way into the second novel, A Storm of Wings.
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Sep 13, 2016 04:42
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Silver2195 posted:(Ironically, Howard's more typical racism ends up making his fiction much less palatable to me than Lovecraft's, partly because it's less subtext and more text, partly because it's mixed together with other toxic ideas about violence and so forth instead of fear of penguins and the like.) Exhibit A being the Solomon Kane stories. Lovecraft is an important author in American Literature. Vastly influential, and modern horror can trace its roots to Lovecraft and Lord Dunsanay as much as to Poe. His stories were workmanlike in execution, but he created a world of unfathomable entities that were, at best, completely indifferent to humanity. He filled it with a hidden history, secret cults, and humanity was portrayed as utterly inconsequential. Then he managed to surround himself with other writers --some good, some not-so-good, and some brilliant --and invited them to play and expand this world. It's a tradition that continues to this day. I don't know of any modern horror writer that hasn't tried their hand at a Lovecraft pastiche at the very least. I'm definitely not a fan of Lovecraft "the person". He was paranoiac that had great racism born from the fear of the exotic and miscegenation. And I'm sure this fueled his writing, dumping all his fear and despair on paper. There are passages that make me uncomfortable to read especially when phrases like "thick rubbery lips" or "capering like monkeys". But I am a fan of what he managed to create and the legacy that grew from it.
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Sep 13, 2016 04:45
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Shitshow posted:For those who have read Dan Simmons' book, they have found the HMS Terror: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/sep/12/hms-terror-wreck-found-arctic-nearly-170-years-northwest-passage-attempt?CMP=twt_gu holy poo poo that's cool as hell
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Sep 13, 2016 05:14
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Apraxin posted:A letter in which he was extremely racist even by the terrible standards of the era. Even in the 1920s it was pretty 'gonzo out-there' to write about "stews of asiatic filth" or "soulless enemies whose repulsive carcasses house dangerous mental machines warped culturelessly in the single direction of material gain at any cost", or to wish for an all-out race war against every non-WASP (never mind writing short stories where the good people of English blood rise up and destroy the treacherous immigrant horde down to the last man). Regarding whether or not Lovecraft was racist compared to the people in his immediate circle, I don't know anything about that, and so I'll accept what you're saying there. But no one argues "he was really racist compared to his close friends/drinking buddies". It's always some sweeping statement like "he was exceptionally racist even for the time" which, when you're talking about the 1920s and 30s, is one hell of a claim (always unbacked) to make. I disagree completely about you claiming that we don't find other people writing screeds about the races in letters of the time, but I don't see much point in getting into that. I would say we had a skewed idea of Lovecraft versus other people or even other pulp writers of the time in that he was both an author (and one legendary for his purple prose) and a voluminous letter writer, even by the standards of the time, and that the efforts of Arkham House, Joshi et all and interest in Lovecraft in general have ensured we have access to this. A lot of the statements on his racism center on how flowery the guy was in stating it, as if that means he meant it more, but he wrote about everything this way. Just because some guy didn't use the words batrachian or cyclopean while participating in an anti-black/Asian race riot or lynching someone for looking funny at a white girl doesn't mean that guy wasn't hideously racist, and just because a guy dresses up his relatively common opinions of the time about how alien blood pollutes us and the Anglo-Saxon is the superior race with a pile of adjectives and adverbs doesn't mean he was exceptionally so (not to say you're claiming this, but it seems to me to be a common if not directly stated argument). Regarding some of the opinions you specifically mention as odd, how the Jews are responsible for everything going wrong goes back a very long time. To pick timely examples, 1915's The Thirty-Nine Steps is often considered the first thriller, sold like hotcakes, and centers on a straight-faced plot by world Jewry to feed the armaments race and plunge the world into war; Henry Ford distributed some half a million copies of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion at his expense in the 20s. Black people = monkeys was already a Darwinian cliche by then; I don't think we need to go into it, except to say its one of those unconscious bits of writing I referred to in my last post that slips into stories so often in this period. Similarly, Lovecraft did not invent the ideas of racial hierarchies or the terrors of miscegenation: he drew on what was there, and it wasn't obscure. quote:Edit: In all seriousness, do you have something/someone in mind as an example of 'exceptional' 1920s racism, if you think Lovecraft is about average? No one person or event, just the rampant discrimination, threats, and literal race murder all too common in the history of this period. Lovecraft talking about gassing Chinatown is undoubtedly crazy, but it's hard to think of the man as really strange when you read about actual mass murder in Tulsa by everyday people, or East Asians being entirely banned from immigrating to the U.S. in 1924, or six million KKK members at its peak in 1925, or Southern senators filibustering the Wagner-Costigan bill in the mid-1930s, or even George Wallace in 1968 (to follow up on your mention of Southern politicians, only decades later, and yet the guy who won something near 15% of the vote running as a third-party candidate; I think your mention of "maybe a couple of Southern politicians" is ... not accurate). We know the history of U.S. race relations: it's not a secret, but it feels to me as if when Lovecraft comes up we actually whitewash the era to make him look worse instead of settling for "yeah, he had terrible opinions like most late 19th-early 20th century white guys, only he was better at stating them with forty adjectives." A real analysis of his attitudes versus the general populace or other writers or other pulp writers would require research, but it's never done, almost certainly because it would take a long time and people would rather google "lovecraft racist" and call it a day.
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Sep 13, 2016 05:34
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nice meltdown. try this thread next time http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3782516
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Sep 13, 2016 07:27
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coyo7e posted:nice meltdown. try this thread next time http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3782516 The word 'meltdown' doesn't mean anything anymore.
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Sep 13, 2016 09:06
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ToxicFrog posted:I have the omnibus that intersperses short stories with the novels in some approximation of chronological order -- the 2000 UK edition, I think? I'm about a quarter of the way into the second novel, A Storm of Wings. Otherwise sorry I inflicted this on you.
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Sep 13, 2016 09:31
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As I think the Cherryh thread fell into archives, I'll ask here: I just finished Protector. (14 or 15 in the atevi series) I'm eager to read the next, but given how slow the pacing has become I want to know: has Caejieri turned nine yet? I still love the books but we're hitting new highs in 'Bren understands a situation, gets a briefing to be sure he understands it with maybe two new facts included, then he explains all of the above twice to everyone else.' Feels like Cherryh's shoving padding into her normally tight books and it's a drag.
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Sep 13, 2016 09:41
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I picked up The Fifth Season when it was on sale Sunday and seeing as I read about half of it yesterday I think I can safely say I really like it.
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Sep 13, 2016 11:56
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I want to read The Fifth Season but I'm really not big on starting series/trilogies before they're finished.
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Sep 13, 2016 16:56
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Drifter posted:Gordon Dickson's Dragon Knight series. I'd rate them as a little simpler, but a lot more entertaining than Novik's stuff I thought the concept started to wear pretty badly as the series went on.
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Sep 13, 2016 17:01
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I just finished "Willful Child" by Steven Erikson and I have to say it is the best comedy book I have read since Hitchhiker's. It's a superb Star Trek spoof and I highly recommend it.
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Sep 13, 2016 17:31
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D-Pad posted:I just finished "Willful Child" by Steven Erikson and I have to say it is the best comedy book I have read since Hitchhiker's. It's a superb Star Trek spoof and I highly recommend it. I mean, better than Redshirts, probably, but my standards for comedy sci-fi are Douglas Adams, Galaxy Quest, and How Much For Just The Planet?, so I may be overly harsh.
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Sep 13, 2016 18:05
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chrisoya posted:I completely bounced off Willful Child. Did it get better as it goes on, or was I just missing something? It wasn't bad, but it was forgettable. I prefer the Space Captain Smith books, which have forgettable plots and shotgun jokes but are at least brilliant when they hit.
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Sep 13, 2016 18:26
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trip9 posted:I want to read The Fifth Season but I'm really not big on starting series/trilogies before they're finished. Also I read Dark Matter recently on a long plane ride and found it pretty unimpressive overall. Like other people have mentioned, it takes about a third of the book before the main character figures out the thing we figure out more or less immediately, and while the book kicks into really impressive high gear in the last 20% or so, it's still feels pretty unevenly paced. I also didn't really care for the characterization...still, it's one of those books that would probably shine if turned into a movie or miniseries.
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Sep 13, 2016 19:26
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RoboCicero posted:This is probably the best reason to skip on The Fifth Season right now. I'm going to die in the year or so before the last book comes out. what
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Sep 13, 2016 19:31
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withak posted:what (it's really good)
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Sep 13, 2016 19:33
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chrisoya posted:Epic fantasy trilogies, man. The wait for the last book is a killer. Not every writer is a Martin or a Rothfuss. I can't imagine why Jemisin would stall for that long, unless The Obelisk Gate adds a lot more plates to keep spinning.
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Sep 13, 2016 19:40
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It's times like this I'm glad I'm a fan of Craig Schaefer. Dude writes like a madman. Finished up a 4 part fantasy series in under 2 years (while still writing 2 other series). Makes me wish I could buy em in hardback so I can beat other fantasy authors with them and go "THIS IS HOW YOU loving DO IT"
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Sep 13, 2016 19:43
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Stupid_Sexy_Flander posted:It's times like this I'm glad I'm a fan of Craig Schaefer. Dude writes like a madman. Finished up a 4 part fantasy series in under 2 years (while still writing 2 other series). Makes me wish I could buy em in hardback so I can beat other fantasy authors with them and go "THIS IS HOW YOU loving DO IT" Also, say what you will about Malazan, but Erikson finished his ten-book main series in twelve years, and I respect that.
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Sep 13, 2016 19:47
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And Ian Tregillis is finishing up his Alchemy War series this December. Neal Asher concludes the Transfomation trilogy in March 2017. These dudes who put out a book a year are cool.
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Sep 13, 2016 19:47
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Given that Jemisin skipped Worldcon to meet writing deadlines, I have high hopes for the third installment coming in on time. Of course, "on time" is still like "in a year or two". 
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Sep 13, 2016 19:50
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chrisoya posted:Epic fantasy trilogies, man. The wait for the last book is a killer. I was initially happy that Obelisk Gate came out a week or so after I finished Fifth Season so there wasn't much wait, but then I realised it was a trilogy... At least after that I got to read the whole Inheritance trilogy, which I also enjoyed. Also someone recommended The Last Policeman in this thread and I gave it a go. It was OK but after reading I kinda sympathise with the majority of the characters in the story who found they couldn't really care what was going on. Really love the concept of a detective trying to solve crimes while the world ends, but the book left me a little cold. Don't think I'll pick up the other two unless they're better. I haven't read a synopsis of the next one but the Nico/Derek storyline seemed like it was shoehorned in just to set up a sequel.
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Sep 13, 2016 20:12
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Stupid_Sexy_Flander posted:It's times like this I'm glad I'm a fan of Craig Schaefer. Dude writes like a madman. Finished up a 4 part fantasy series in under 2 years (while still writing 2 other series). Makes me wish I could buy em in hardback so I can beat other fantasy authors with them and go "THIS IS HOW YOU loving DO IT" Yeah but the ending of Revanche was bad, and if taking longer to plot out/write the series would have made it better, that would have been a good trade off.
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Sep 13, 2016 20:14
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Patrick Spens posted:Yeah but the ending of Revanche was bad, and if taking longer to plot out/write the series would have made it better, that would have been a good trade off. I thought it had a great and really well done ending, except for the witches, but I'll reserve judgement until I see what happens when they turn up next.
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Sep 13, 2016 21:03
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Solitair posted:Also, say what you will about Malazan, but Erikson finished his ten-book main series in twelve years, and I respect that. Pretty good page-per-year ratio, yes.
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Sep 13, 2016 21:27
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chrisoya posted:Epic fantasy trilogies, man. The wait for the last book is a killer. chrisoya posted:Epic fantasy trilogies, man. The wait for the last book is a killer. Having now caught up, I can confirm. Really astonishingly good although the first book is better than the second (the three POV characters work better I think). With respect to the "high fantasy" issue...if you classify Wheel of Time as high fantasy I think you need to do the same here.
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Sep 13, 2016 21:50
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Patrick Spens posted:Yeah but the ending of Revanche was bad, and if taking longer to plot out/write the series would have made it better, that would have been a good trade off. Seriously? I teared up twice reading the last book. Manly tears, but still.
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Sep 13, 2016 23:40
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StonecutterJoe posted:Seriously? I teared up twice reading the last book. Manly tears, but still. I mean, I'm glad you liked it. But I found this last half of Queen of the Night to be unfocused and sloppy, and there were way too many epilogues.
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Sep 13, 2016 23:46
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Patrick Spens posted:I mean, I'm glad you liked it. But I found this last half of Queen of the Night to be unfocused and sloppy, and there were way too many epilogues. That's a fair stance, and I respect that. My take is that there aren't any epilogues at all: the twenty year jump is part of the story, and the chapters that happen after that point are the "real" ending. The story takes a momentary pause as everybody regroups and the world becomes more or less stable, but "poo poo never stays stable and all you can do is protect the people you love and keep your head above water" is part of what I think is the theme. The jump was necessary to show stuff like Hedy becoming Nessa 2.0, down to her grand entrance mirroring the Owl's back in book one, and Renata and Felix having a kid who goes on to have an adventure just like theirs.. StonecutterJoe fucked around with this message at 12:15 on Sep 14, 2016 |
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Sep 14, 2016 03:16
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big scary monsters posted:
The second and third books are fairly different, as in the second book it's a month or so until impact so society has almost completely broken down and then at the start of the third book there's just a week left so it's even worse. On the whole I thought the series ends in a good spot, although in the third book it does seem like he almost completely glosses over the actual conclusion to the missing sister subplot. Also I just finished reading The Fifth Season and I don't think it's the fastest I've ever read a book but it's close. 457 pages done in a little less than 48 hours and that's with work and everything else going on.
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Sep 14, 2016 03:19
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Death's End is coming out september 20th, I'm so loving pumped. Been re-reading Three Body and Dark Forest in anticipation. Can't wait, looks really cool from the summary
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Sep 14, 2016 08:00
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ToxicFrog posted:To re-rail the thread somewhat, I'm reading M. John Harrison's Viriconium books as my wildcard challenge this year, and I'm...really not sure what I think of them. I read the first two earlier this year and I totally agree, I still am not sure if I "liked" them or not. The writing is great, there's some really neat ideas in there (especially in Wings which gets bugfuck crazy a bit in), as stories they're not so engaging. I've read that they're written as criticisms of typical fantasy and that Harrison is kind of a pretentious dick about genre fiction in general, dunno how true that is but it's not surprising if so.
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Sep 14, 2016 16:48
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AEMINAL posted:Death's End is coming out september 20th, I'm so loving pumped. Been re-reading Three Body and Dark Forest in anticipation. How would these books be as a follow up to Aurora, which I'm halfway done with?
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Sep 14, 2016 17:05
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trip9 posted:How would these books be as a follow up to Aurora, which I'm halfway done with? Completely different and yet good. Read them anyway. Three-Body Problem isn't very engaging though.
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Sep 14, 2016 17:37
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holocaust bloopers posted:Three-Body Problem isn't very engaging though. That was my concern. It sounded like a good "ideas" book but not a good "compelling plot with interesting characters" book. As a side note, Aurora just got real.
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Sep 14, 2016 17:42
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Oh shiiiit, Three Body movie trailer premiering soon. http://www.shanghaidaily.com/metro/Scifi-fantasy-movie-The-ThreeBody-Problem-to-release-trailer-at-Science-Expo/shdaily.shtml
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Sep 14, 2016 18:13
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I loved TBP, and The Dark Forest, but if you're looking for something similar to Aurora, maybe try Children of Time if you haven't.
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Sep 14, 2016 23:53
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Just finished the Fifth Season and thought it was great. People asked if it deserved over Seveneves and other people gave a bunch of reasons why Seveneves wasn't good enough, but even without those flaws this book is probably better. Something thats interesting to me is that black women(at least of the authors I've read) write grim dark sci-fi/fantasy so, so much better than white men. This and Who Fears Death blow similar books I've read out of the water without going LOOK AT HOW LARGE THAT BARBED DEMON PENIS IS AS IT RAPES EVERYONE RAGHHHH GRIM DARKKKK.
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Sep 15, 2016 15:57
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