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McDowell posted:It is very big universe that we only perceive a fraction of. We are not alone.
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Sep 12, 2016 17:54
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rudatron posted:what we can't see is picked up by radio emissions, and the picture is not good my friend. you can believe as much bullshit as you want, to make yourself feel better, but entropy does not give a gently caress, you will die and there is nothing you can do to stop it. That is true of this material existence, and I have no interest in resisting entropy- that is Lucifer's program. Beings from the Evolutionary Level Above Human are 'imperishable' as they exist beyond reality as we can know it. We are 'out of phase' with the Kingdom of Heaven so they can be undetectable or barely perceptable in the movement of neutrinos, dark matter,and dark energy.
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Sep 12, 2016 18:03
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McDowell posted:That is true of this material existence, and I have no interest in resisting entropy- that is Lucifer's program. Beings from the Evolutionary Level Above Human are 'imperishable' as they exist beyond reality as we can know it. We are 'out of phase' with the Kingdom of Heaven so they can be undetectable or barely perceptable in the movement of neutrinos, dark matter,and dark energy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dKpeTEBYIA Even assuming all of this is true, what difference does it make? The corporeal cannot become incorporeal. Your self can never ascend to heaven, or even if your parts did there's no guarantee that your self would not be completely subsumed by the reality of a higher plane. If escape from material existence and eternal suffering is the ultimate goal, you could just as well achieve such a thing through species suicide. That's what a lot of the gnostics (apparently) actually did, they refused to procreate because they thought bringing new life into the world was a sin. That's what a lot of the Cathars (apparently) did too. Enjoy reality as much as you can while it lasts, because once you're dead you'll be gone. You're not going to heaven, and you're not going to be reborn. Everything that makes you yourself will simply fade out of existence and be recycled through perpetuity. Reality exists in spite of us. Pener Kropoopkin has issued a correction as of 18:23 on Sep 12, 2016 |
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Sep 12, 2016 18:10
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McDowell posted:If that is what you want the Kingdom of God is happy to provide it, but it has nothing to do with what Christ's mission, which was about getting off this planet. Humans should see this existence for what it is and accept their mortality - instead of some crazy insistence on prodigious breeding and a slow, painful death. As for your second point about humans accepting their mortality, that's the part where I break from transhumanists in general. I understand that I will die someday, but to not take advantage of opportunities to extend life is to cheapen the very gift of life. However, if I can live an extra 5, 10, 50, or 500 years, that is an opportunity to do additional good on Earth, before going on to my eternal reward. If that gift of extra life ended up being open-ended, in that I would stop aging entirely, that is an indefinite opportunity to do good. Now, there are many good reasons to reject a gift, even one as precious as life itself, but simply because it isn't somehow "natural" is to reject the very idea that God continually shapes the world. If such a world existed, it would be because God had chosen to actuate a world in which there is indefinite life. The only possible counterargument that I can see would be if the extension of such life was produced in an inherently unethical way, such as "you can live forever, but to do so, we must harvest a specific chemical which cannot be synthesized from the living brain of another human" to use a stereotypical and reductionist example.
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Sep 12, 2016 18:28
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Azathoth posted:Christ's mission is not about getting off this planet, it's about doing good while we're here and what comes after, and I say that as a sola fide Christian. And how'd you reach that conclusion, you read Koine Greek or Aramaic?
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Sep 12, 2016 18:49
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"Getting off the planet" isn't exactly the same thing as escaping material existence. Getting off the planet is the only way the human race can survive the sun dying, or the anthropocene.
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Sep 12, 2016 18:53
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all of this is relevant to this conversation about transhumanism and especially whether or not i get big tits as a robot https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zo9hqmkEfEY
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Sep 12, 2016 19:12
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zeal posted:And how'd you reach that conclusion, you read Koine Greek or Aramaic? That's why I prefer the NRSV translation now, though when I want to study a section deeper, I read it in a couple other translations, and if possible read annotations from the translators for those versions. I also try to be mindful of the fact that the translators are working from documents that are many hundreds of years from the original writing, and that different versions contain irreconcilable differences that cannot be put down to simple scribal error. I also try to keep in mind the limits of objective translation and understand that translators must necessarily make interpretive judgment in some cases. I don't have a functional knowledge of Koine Greek, Aramaic, or Hebrew, but I do my best to educate myself on potential translations for words with strong theological implications, such as any reference to Hell. I claim zero academic knowledge, but if it's reasonable for me to educate myself on it, I do my best.
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Sep 12, 2016 19:18
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my aunt is a fascist
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Sep 12, 2016 19:20
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Imagine a world where we'll never be free from Peter Thiel. That's transhumanism. that's a world worthy of destruction
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Sep 12, 2016 19:21
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zen death robot posted:What if it's an illusion caused by gravitational lensing and we're actually the last galaxy left in the universe we need to die
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Sep 12, 2016 19:22
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I believe Ti & Do are exactly who they said they were, if you look at their message and their time on this planet you might reach the same conclusion. Azathoth have you checked out the Nag Hammadi scriptures?
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Sep 12, 2016 19:24
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I googled Ti & Do and the first result was a page on heavensgate.com
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Sep 12, 2016 19:28
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It is wonderful that the site is still up and the information is available with as few distortions as possible. Is it really hard to believe that the Kingdom of God would 'possess' two mild-mannered Texans as messengers to the modern world?
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Sep 12, 2016 19:52
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I think so, yes.
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Sep 12, 2016 19:53
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McDowell posted:I believe Ti & Do are exactly who they said they were, if you look at their message and their time on this planet you might reach the same conclusion. Azathoth have you checked out the Nag Hammadi scriptures? I know enough about Gnosticism to not simply read them at face value. Frankly, I don't understant Gnosticism well enough to critically read primary sources, and the odds that much of what was being conveyed would go over my head is just too high to make it worthwhile for me to go through them. Most of the knowledge I have of the remaining books come from what Bart Ehrman via his wonderful book Lost Christianities, and while I respect him as a scholar and haven't found myself disagreeing with him much, I don't feel that I have a full picture of them.
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Sep 12, 2016 20:00
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Azathoth posted:Nope, I'm happy to outsource that to professionals, though I have read multiple translations of the Bible, examined the translators qualifications, at least as much as any layman can, and noted their denominational and theological biases. For the translations I've read, I have noted which primary documents they used in their to produce their translations to do my best to make sure they aren't cherry-picking documents or using sources that have been acknowledged to be less accurate than another available source. why do you bother placing cosmic importance in iron age apocalyptic fiction then, when you already know what you claim as a holy book is the product of a self-interested game of telephone played out over the course of centuries and multiple language systems? a book you've never actually even read, for that matter?
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Sep 12, 2016 20:01
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I just wanna gently caress a Martian goddamnit.
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Sep 12, 2016 20:01
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Please stop misrepresenting the Gnostic religion in this tread TYA. There are different views about what reality is, and as the one who made the mistake of bringing it up to begin with, would like to point this out. It's also lovely to say "ugh reality is an illusion, kil urself is the only option" is at all representative of people who claim to be Gnostic. Also, this atheist vs. theist bullshit has been done to death. You want to see reality as just this life and entropy blah blah, go ahead, it's your prerogative. Seems pretty bland to me, but I'm not telling you what to believe. It's also narcissistically ignorant, to assume that all there is in the vast universe is humanity. If McDowell chooses words that sound strange to you, maybe you shouldn't take them literally. But please, dont kil urself to get to some spaceship that nobody knows for sure or not is there McDowell. You said it yourself didnt you? We're all here for a reason.
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Sep 12, 2016 20:09
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Solvent posted:You want to see reality as just this life and entropy blah blah, go ahead, it's your prerogative. Seems pretty bland to me, but I'm not telling you what to believe. Good, because the infinite possibility of the universe loving rules - and it owns that we're even capable of perceiving as much of it as we can, while continuing to expand our knowledge of it. The way people idealize "higher" planes of reality makes me think of the Moon people from the Tale of the Bamboo Cutter. The Moon people were divinely perfect, absolutely beautiful, and come from a world free of want. In some versions of the story, Kaguya Hime is sent to Earth so she can experience material attachment as a punishment. The Moon people have no consideration at all for the pathetic humans that inhabit Earth, and in spite of how much Kaguya regrets leaving everybody she loves - as soon as they drape her with Moon Feathers all of her compassion for Earthlings dies. Be careful what you wish for, is what I'm saying.
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Sep 12, 2016 20:21
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Good, because the infinite possibility of the universe loving rules - and it owns that we're even capable of perceiving as much of it as we can, while continuing to expand our knowledge of it.  Well put.
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Sep 12, 2016 20:25
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zeal posted:why do you bother placing cosmic importance in iron age apocalyptic fiction then, when you already know what you claim as a holy book is the product of a self-interested game of telephone played out over the course of centuries and multiple language systems? a book you've never actually even read, for that matter? As for me having never read the original texts, you're completely right. I wish I had the requisite skills to pick up the languages to such a degree that I could understand them without the benefit of translators, but I do not. I've tried and failed miserably to learn modern languages from within the Germanic branch, and so I have not even attempted to learn Koine Greek, Aramaic, or Ancient Hebrew. However, I've also never read Marcus Aurelius in the original Latin, or Laozi in the original Chinese, but instead read translations, and I don't feel that the presence of a translator is fatal to understanding the ideas that the authors were trying to communicate. To bring a more modern example, I've never read Gabriel Garcia Marquez in Spanish, but his works remain some of my favorites. As for why I believe? It's a hard question, and not one to which I have a ready and easily digestible answer, though I have devoted no small amount of thought to it. In the end, there's a variety of reasons. First, it's what I was raised to believe, and being a Christian is part of my identity. I know that that is a selfish, but I do want to state that that is part of it. Second, the belief enriches my inner life. I don't mean that God gives me free stuff because I believe, I stay far away from the Prosperity Gospel, I mean that the belief enriches me on a philosophical and spiritual level, and helps to make me a more complete person. Third, it helps me live a better, more just, and happier life. Could I be just as good of a person if I were an atheist? Sure, most of my friends are atheists and they're just as happy, charitable, kind, and loving as I am. However, my faith provides me with both a personal, internal conduit to doing good, and also an external structure in which to do good things. Finally, the God that I read about in the Bible is one who is worthy of worship. I understand that many people do not see it the way that I do, but that doesn't change how I see it. FYI, since this is derailing the thread, I don't want to get into an argument defending or expounding upon my faith further. However, if someone wants to continue this, I suggest that we take it to private messages. I was trying to give an alternative perspective on that video, pointing out the bullshit in it from a different side, and did not intend to take the thread this way. I will likely continue to offer my perspective, whether explicitly Christian or not, but I will do my best to refrain from going this off topic in the future. Azathoth has issued a correction as of 20:46 on Sep 12, 2016 |
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Sep 12, 2016 20:43
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Bip Roberts posted:I just wanna gently caress a Martian goddamnit. sorry about your space aids
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Sep 12, 2016 20:44
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Jose posted:sorry about your space aids aka ~pneumonia~
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Sep 12, 2016 21:43
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:The way people idealize "higher" planes of reality makes me think of the Moon people from the Tale of the Bamboo Cutter. The Moon people were divinely perfect, absolutely beautiful, and come from a world free of want. In some versions of the story, Kaguya Hime is sent to Earth so she can experience material attachment as a punishment. The Moon people have no consideration at all for the pathetic humans that inhabit Earth, and in spite of how much Kaguya regrets leaving everybody she loves - as soon as they drape her with Moon Feathers all of her compassion for Earthlings dies. Interesting story, sounds like a fragment of Next Level contact to me. Severing from the wider human society was a big part of Ti & Do's overcoming process. Here's a modern fragment: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Field_Where_I_Died Do posted:Another show I saw this morning on satellite - it sure sounds like I watch a lot of television! - it's interesting how my Older Member frequently uses these little preachers and their lessons to give me little clues of things to pass on to you. Mc Do Well has issued a correction as of 01:03 on Sep 13, 2016 |
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Sep 13, 2016 00:12
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McDowell posted:It is wonderful that the site is still up and the information is available with as few distortions as possible. Is it really hard to believe that the Kingdom of God would 'possess' two mild-mannered Texans as messengers to the modern world? yes
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Sep 13, 2016 14:04
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The literal source of McDowell's religious inspiration: E: "Our Position Against Suicide"
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Sep 13, 2016 15:30
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The Kingfish posted:The literal source of McDowell's religious inspiration: lol But seriously McDowell take your meds.
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Sep 13, 2016 23:48
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m74KOFZYOWM
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Sep 14, 2016 00:16
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I already watched that McDowell it isn't good theology.
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Sep 14, 2016 00:25
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What makes a theology 'good'? I was watching a Zizek talk on Buddhism and he mentioned how theologians are the greatest atheists.
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Sep 14, 2016 00:29
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He means that theologians recognize the primacy of human action.
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Sep 14, 2016 00:36
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The Kingfish posted:He means that theologians recognize the primacy of human action. That is what makes Ti & Do unique - they emphasize the individual's free will to determine what thoughts and actions are acceptable to the standards of the Next Level, while also acknowledging the insignificance of the self in the cosmic. They weren't interested in establishing a church and perpetuating an organization in the human kingdom (another definition of 'primacy'), their focus was to disseminate the message and connect with those who have come to see this world for what it is. If a 'day' in Next Level time is about 1000 years on Earth then the past 6000 years of recorded history have been a 'work week' and this Recycling time could be seen as a 'Sabbath' or even 'Judgement Day' (which is different from the 'final judgement' of Luciferian beings- which I believe occurs at the temporal end of the universe). At the end of the 20th century there seemed to be a clear window of planetary 'redemption' - but it has been closing and will eventually be shut.
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Sep 14, 2016 01:01
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McDowell posted:I was watching a Zizek Found ur problem.
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Sep 14, 2016 01:53
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Bip Roberts posted:Found ur problem. 
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Sep 14, 2016 01:56
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McDowell's posts remind me of a conspiracy theory about military think tanks and New Agers working together to make a new religion for humanity. The disdain for material reality and desire to go into space were the two big aspects of the theorized religion, with the idea to keep people motivated to work even as living conditions declined for most of the population. It's mostly bullshit, but showed some funny connections between new age prophets and early tech people which helps explains some of Silicon Valley's weirdness. I found out the Heavens Gate cult was a big fan of the X-Files from that rabbit hole, so good job staying authentic with that McDowell. Sadly you may just be following a MK Ultra psyop tho.
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Sep 14, 2016 02:06
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Atrocious Joe posted:McDowell's posts remind me of a conspiracy theory about military think tanks and New Agers working together to make a new religion for humanity. The disdain for material reality and desire to go into space were the two big aspects of the theorized religion, with the idea to keep people motivated to work even as living conditions declined for most of the population. It's mostly bullshit, but showed some funny connections between new age prophets and early tech people which helps explains some of Silicon Valley's weirdness. Oh I know, that is part of what makes this something sent from God - the one who pays the piper picks the tune. Those conspiracy theories were probably spawned by people who encountered Next Level information and recoiled from it, which is understandable. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7H00OUf1lA It's all poo poo! Making us go backwards!
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Sep 14, 2016 02:14
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Atrocious Joe posted:I found out the Heavens Gate cult was a big fan of the X-Files from that rabbit hole, so good job staying authentic with that McDowell. Sadly you may just be following a MK Ultra psyop tho. How weird must it be to follow a cult that's already "ascended" and you'll never get an opportunity to ride Hale-Bopp.
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Sep 14, 2016 09:01
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Atrocious Joe posted:McDowell's posts remind me of a conspiracy theory about military think tanks and New Agers working together to make a new religion for humanity. The disdain for material reality and desire to go into space were the two big aspects of the theorized religion, with the idea to keep people motivated to work even as living conditions declined for most of the population. It's mostly bullshit, but showed some funny connections between new age prophets and early tech people which helps explains some of Silicon Valley's weirdness.
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Sep 14, 2016 12:03
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Bip Roberts posted:Found ur problem. zizek is at his best when talking about toilets
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Sep 14, 2016 12:59
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