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I decided to try Blacklist again because apparently I'm just the most masochistic motherfucker on the face of the planet, and I don't get the distract button. Half the time the enemies just go "huh?" and wander over, and the other half it's instantly "There's someone over here! Let's get him!" and I don't understand what causes it to happen. It seems entirely arbitrary, because the same enemies in the same situations will react completely differently to the same input. Like, I get that a developer might want to change things up sometimes, but there's variation, and then there's "you pressed a button and got unlucky so there are now twice as many enemy soldiers in the area, and they're all pissed off".
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Sep 14, 2016 10:07
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Tiggum posted:One thing that irritates me about Skyrim is how tiny all the cities and towns are. It would have been way cooler to have fewer of them but make them bigger, so it doesn't look like the capital city of this large nation has a population of about fifteen. You're obviously still not going to get anything like realistic sized cities, but they could have done better. Same goes for all the caves and fortresses and stuff. Make fewer of them, but make them better. This always bugged me in SNES era JRPGs. You'd got a castle and meet the King, but what was he King of? There was like 1 town with 6 people in it. What kind of tax revenues can 1 inn, a weapon shop and a potion maker generate ?
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Sep 14, 2016 10:41
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The closest to a "proper" city feel are those levels in Blood Money which had massive crowds...which were also dumb as bricks and clearly animated as a singular entity. Fantastic for atmosphere but completely fell apart if you stopped to look at them. Even modern games struggle with that kind of thing. Witcher 3 and Arkham Knight have crowded scenes, but even they fall way below what you'd expect a city's population to involve.
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Sep 14, 2016 10:45
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Lunchmeat Larry posted:WEEEEEEEELLLLLLL HE AIN'T MY BOY BUT THE BROTHER IS HEAVY A whole new generation gets to experience this all over again. 
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Sep 14, 2016 11:04
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Assassins Creed does a pretty solid job of making cities that feel like actual cities. but that was originally its main gimmick iirc.
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Sep 14, 2016 11:07
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The Moon Monster posted:Assassins Creed does a pretty solid job of making cities that feel like actual cities. but that was originally its main gimmick iirc. All that did was make me want to kill the annoying motherfuckers who kept blocking me but when I did I got instant game over. I mean I get why all those things but annoying on purpose is still annoying.
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Sep 14, 2016 11:12
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Morglon posted:All that did was make me want to kill the annoying motherfuckers who kept blocking me but when I did I got instant game over. I mean I get why all those things but annoying on purpose is still annoying. No, you don't understand! I have nothing! I am poor and sick and hungry.
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Sep 14, 2016 11:29
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The Moon Monster posted:Assassins Creed does a pretty solid job of making cities that feel like actual cities. but that was originally its main gimmick iirc. The trade off right now is that you can make cities actually as big as real cities but then there are almost no buildings you can actually enter. I've been playing more Lords of the Fallen and something else that's been bugging me is how the game has almost no mid-sized weapons. Everything I've been finding is either a big slow weapon or a small fast one.
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Sep 14, 2016 11:43
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Morglon posted:All that did was make me want to kill the annoying motherfuckers who kept blocking me but when I did I got instant game over. So almost exactly like a real city.
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Sep 14, 2016 12:07
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poptart_fairy posted:The closest to a "proper" city feel are those levels in Blood Money which had massive crowds...which were also dumb as bricks and clearly animated as a singular entity. Fantastic for atmosphere but completely fell apart if you stopped to look at them. GTA-style games manage fairly well, I think. Saints Row, Sleeping Dogs, etc. 
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Sep 14, 2016 12:12
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Your Gay Uncle posted:This always bugged me in SNES era JRPGs. You'd got a castle and meet the King, but what was he King of? There was like 1 town with 6 people in it. What kind of tax revenues can 1 inn, a weapon shop and a potion maker generate ? I actually kind of accept it a lot better from old RPGs and such, because there is a blatant element of abstraction to it anyway, of course we're taking some liberties. The ones that get me are when they get more realistic and elaborate, but not enough that they're free from that abstraction. I finished playing FFVII for the first time recently, and that's got some great examples. Midgar you can feel like is a real place of actual size, because the places you can actually go there are clearly marked as only small parts of it; what you have is already loving huge for a JRPG of the time, so you know that it's comparatively massive, yet you're mostly only in very sparsely-populated parts of it. But at the same time you've got stuff like Junoon, which is clearly intended to be a big port town and military base, but the distance they go with that is far enough that you really notice that the amount of people in the town that aren't enemy soldiers you're probably killing is like, twelve tops. EDIT: Crime sandbox games do tend to do pretty well at this, yeah, partly because it's all taking place in a single city, so even though they're shrinking it down for playability you still get a sense of size. Then they go and make specific districts, so that even if one area's not that far from another they still feel very far apart. Cleretic has a new favorite as of 12:24 on Sep 14, 2016 |
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Sep 14, 2016 12:21
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Tiggum posted:For King of the Hill, sprint to break the stunlock, jump, then hit Stomp while airborne. For Jyunichi I just used sprint attacks against him since you can execute them before you're in range of his attacks. Just mash attack as you run toward him. thanks, I'll give it a shot again.
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Sep 14, 2016 12:25
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Tiggum posted:GTA-style games manage fairly well, I think. Saints Row, Sleeping Dogs, etc. Population counts are nowhere near as dramatic as a real city or close to the crowds Blood Money achieved.
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Sep 14, 2016 12:29
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Fil5000 posted:That's not true! Some of them you have to shoot in the back. Or you have the Farcry/Watchdogs approach of making you wait for an arbitrary point where you can unlock a "oh, takedowns just work on heavies now" skill and they're never an issue ever again. Though at least in the case of Farcry 3, the first island's heavies wear welding masks as improvised protection, so it fits the sneaky gameplay to be able to pop them in the back of the head if you're careful enough. Except when your aim is a tiny bit off and now you've alerted the entire outpost... John Murdoch has a new favorite as of 12:46 on Sep 14, 2016 |
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Sep 14, 2016 12:43
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poptart_fairy posted:Population counts are nowhere near as dramatic as a real city or close to the crowds Blood Money achieved. Hitman 2016 has large crowds, particularly in Marrakesh.
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Sep 14, 2016 13:31
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In noted Stalin simulator Calm Down, Stalin the phone will quite frequently glitch out. Mostly it just repeatedly cradles the handset, which is irritating, but occasionally it will throw the handset directly onto The Button which is kinda bad.
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Sep 14, 2016 15:16
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The illusion of population size really falls apart when you get really into the immersion level like in Elder Scrolls games. Morrowind felt right with its sparse population because it was like this frontier town on this lovely volcano island nobody wants to live on, anyway. But then you play Oblivion, which takes place at the heart of the entire Tamriel and there's like all of three hundred people that inhabit it (4,500 people if you count bandits in caves.) There's a part in Skyrim where you and your "army" go and take down a city. Really immersive if you don't actually look around and see that your entire "army" is all of eight guys. My girlfriend says this is intentional, that all RPGs are meant to be abstract and kind of representative, so that while you might see only a single person, he's meant to represent an army of hundreds or thousands. I can buy that in, say, a JRPG or something where you're looking down at a bunch of doiky doik sprites doing their happy little thing, but not when it's something as intimate as Elder Scrolls. Also, distances. Again, with Morrowind this was fine because it was kind of a bitch to get from one place to another so I GUESS some people might settle in these other areas. It's a stretch. But in games like Oblivion or even Fallout 4, it's like, these settlements or even entire towns are founded literally a five minute walk from one another. This is again something that's easy to make abstract in something with an overworld as in JRPGs, but not a game where you are a physical presence and where you have a very distinct, measurable feel of moving from one spot to another. Now Daggerfall, that game had it right. You want to walk from one town to the next, it's going to take you loving days. That's how to do it.
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Sep 14, 2016 16:21
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credburn posted:Now Daggerfall, that game had it right. You want to walk from one town to the next, it's going to take you loving days. That's how to do it. im pretty sure games dont do that anymore because its boring af
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Sep 14, 2016 16:41
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Tiggum posted:For King of the Hill, sprint to break the stunlock, jump, then hit Stomp while airborne. For Jyunichi I just used sprint attacks against him since you can execute them before you're in range of his attacks. Just mash attack as you run toward him. Also, invest in super strength and bring a good weapon like the nailbat, lightsaber, or dildo. That alone can handle king of the hill pretty well, and freeze blast is great for locking down groups of mobs while setting them up for the one-shot or freezing Jyunichi for a free hit or two.
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Sep 14, 2016 16:55
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Lets go back to the safe house- AHUHHUHH AHUUHHUHH..WHAT'S HAPPENED..AHUHUH AHUHUH..i understand. AHUHUH AHUHUH
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Sep 14, 2016 16:58
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im pooping! posted:im pretty sure games dont do that anymore because its boring af Also, unlike Elder Scrolls games from Morrowind onward almost everything in Daggerfall is just randomly generated. The only things that were set were major cities and main story locations.
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Sep 14, 2016 17:02
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quote:Again, with Morrowind this was fine because it was kind of a bitch to get from one place to another so I GUESS some people might settle in these other areas. Playing with draw distance increased or using that one jump scroll shows you just how tiny Morrowind actually is. Also, if you jump in the wrong direction, just how many hundreds of ocean cells there are.
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Sep 14, 2016 17:27
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Cythereal posted:Also, invest in super strength and bring a good weapon like the nailbat, lightsaber, or dildo. That alone can handle king of the hill pretty well, and freeze blast is great for locking down groups of mobs while setting them up for the one-shot or freezing Jyunichi for a free hit or two. i passed it. i upgraded to melee 3 and it was enough to keep me going. it's weird, i had a bat in my inventory but i had to use only my powers and my fists in fight club.
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Sep 14, 2016 19:35
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Judge Tesla posted:Hitman 2016 has large crowds, particularly in Marrakesh. I really need to pick that up at some point...
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Sep 14, 2016 20:01
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im pooping! posted:im pretty sure games dont do that anymore because its boring af For me it goes beyond boredom and becomes creepy. You can do anything and nothing matters; you're locked into the limits of an algorithm that gets more and more obvious. The games I like reward your growing understanding of how they work with the ability to handle challenges that used to seem impossible. GTA, Elder Scrolls, No Man's Sky type of games punish that understanding with a weird existential dread. To me, a single level or cutscene with unique graphics and dialogue makes the world feel "bigger" than a dozen procgen or kit-of-parts levels. It's like, here's some type of actual human expression, here's something specific instead of 20 variations on vaguely the same thing, here's evidence that a world exists and matters outside the computer dream prison that this story can never escape. Towns in Earthbound feel bigger than towns in Fallout because each person has something going on that maybe doesn't even concern you. Dark Souls feels bigger than Skyrim because the proportion of unique experiences in the former is so much higher. MGS3 feels bigger than MGSV because at least there's the illusion that everything is there for some reason, instead of endless slightly different configurations of thugs wandering through a field for you to shoot.
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Sep 14, 2016 20:36
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swamp waste posted:For me it goes beyond boredom and becomes creepy. You can do anything and nothing matters; you're locked into the limits of an algorithm that gets more and more obvious. The games I like reward your growing understanding of how they work with the ability to handle challenges that used to seem impossible. GTA, Elder Scrolls, No Man's Sky type of games punish that understanding with a weird existential dread. No Man's Sky feels especially weird in that way. On the one hand, you encounter aliens everywhere. You could be exploring an incredibly remote planet, cataloging never before seen flora and fauna, only to stumble upon some alien jerk who got there first or is going on a joyride through the atmosphere. There's a space station in every single system. For a game all about exploration, it never feels like you're actually breaking new ground or pushing the frontier. And yet at the same time you still feel lonely as hell. Almost every outpost features only one single person, you never see anything approaching a larger settlement or even a city. Even the central space stations are just two dudes in a giant hollow structure, with maybe half a dozen other ships dropping by. It manages to seem both empty and overcrowded at the same time, and as a result feels sterile and artificial.
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Sep 14, 2016 21:06
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I don't mind procedural generation in a lot of cases but for the most part I agree. There is plenty to see in a lot of games with static maps because someone or several people were paid to make it interesting. I sometimes take several minutes to walk through an area slowly to take it all in and tiny details like you find in Los Santos or Arkham City really make you appreciate the work people did to make it possible without beating you over the head. Tiny window signs or even grass growing between cracks in the sidewalks. Things that someone intentionally put there does make a map seem bigger than it is even if it takes 30 minutes to walk the distance of the map as opposed to 30 days.
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Sep 14, 2016 21:35
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im pooping! posted:I don't mind procedural generation in a lot of cases but for the most part I agree. There is plenty to see in a lot of games with static maps because someone or several people were paid to make it interesting. I sometimes take several minutes to walk through an area slowly to take it all in and tiny details like you find in Los Santos or Arkham City really make you appreciate the work people did to make it possible without beating you over the head. Tiny window signs or even grass growing between cracks in the sidewalks. Things that someone intentionally put there does make a map seem bigger than it is even if it takes 30 minutes to walk the distance of the map as opposed to 30 days. This is why I love Arkham Asylum. It's so thickly packed with tiny details and references. There's almost no wasted space and therefore very little wasted player time. Even good procgen will never be as able to tell stories through the environment as a small team of designers working in a limited space.
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Sep 14, 2016 21:49
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Perestroika posted:No Man's Sky feels especially weird in that way. On the one hand, you encounter aliens everywhere. You could be exploring an incredibly remote planet, cataloging never before seen flora and fauna, only to stumble upon some alien jerk who got there first or is going on a joyride through the atmosphere. There's a space station in every single system. For a game all about exploration, it never feels like you're actually breaking new ground or pushing the frontier.
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Sep 14, 2016 22:28
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Somfin posted:Even good procgen will never be as able to tell stories through the environment as a small team of designers working in a limited space.
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Sep 14, 2016 22:31
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BillmasterCozb posted:Lets go back to the safe house- AHUHHUHH AHUUHHUHH..WHAT'S HAPPENED..AHUHUH AHUHUH..i understand. AHUHUH AHUHUH Wait till you hit Day 3 and have rescued a lot of people, you think its noisy with just those 2 people in it? 
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Sep 14, 2016 22:45
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FactsAreUseless posted:But it could allow for a crazy amount of player influence on the world if designers would get away from this idea that you have to see everything on the first go. This is something Minecraft is good at and Skyrim is bad at. Nothing you do in Skyrim matters and you can change nothing, because then you could be locked out of content. But with procedural generation, you could easily encourage players to make decisions with real impact. Make a particular choice and maybe a city is wiped off the map, or a mountain cracks open to reveal ancient ruins, or [some other randomly generated event]. You could create a huge number of unique, player-driven experiences, and players could do something else the next time they play. Encourage multiple 20-hour playthroughs instead of a single 100-hour one. But instead they're just insanely static. Fuckin' MegaMan Legends did this poo poo on a static map. A couple early boss battles will procedurally gently caress up the main town because they use explosives and don't target you precisely, or because they airlift in little robots to specifically gently caress up buildings. If you're fast and minimise the devastation they'll gently caress it up less. You then get a task to donate enough money to rebuild the lost buildings and the rebuild progresses quest by quest until you get access to the potentially lost buildings again, some of which have quests associated with them. It makes the world feel more real because what you do in the early game has an impact that you're still feeling three quests down the road.
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Sep 14, 2016 22:51
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I'm playing Pokemon Blue on the virtual console and holy hell, how did we ever put up with this tiny inventory.
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Sep 14, 2016 23:19
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StandardVC10 posted:I'm playing Pokemon Blue on the virtual console and holy hell, how did we ever put up with this tiny inventory. We duped 264 masterballs and never used anything else.
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Sep 14, 2016 23:44
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im pooping! posted:im pretty sure games dont do that anymore because its boring af Yeah bro, that's what I'm talking about. Life is boring.
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Sep 15, 2016 00:28
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oh yeah, THE FACTS, the part when the convicts get replaced with something even more annoying
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Sep 15, 2016 01:27
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Action Tortoise posted:i passed it. i upgraded to melee 3 and it was enough to keep me going. Huh, I could have sworn I was able to bring melee weapons in as well but I guess I'm wrong. Been a while since I played SR4.
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Sep 15, 2016 01:33
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FactsAreUseless posted:It's like being the only person in a closed amusement park. So No Man's Sky is Cartmanland? Makes sense.
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Sep 15, 2016 03:41
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the final boss of dead rising is one of the coolest things ever, except for actually fighting the boss how do you fight this guy. i hate him. every time i die i have to sit through five minutes of shooting a tank.
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Sep 15, 2016 05:10
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BillmasterCozb posted:the final boss of dead rising is one of the coolest things ever, except for actually fighting the boss That's the guy on top of the tank, right? It's been ages, but I vaguely remember spamming the jump kick and maybe the spinning lariat? Dead Rising's combat wasn't really suited to bosses.
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Sep 15, 2016 05:17
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