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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Absolutely. The problem with Crawl's skill system, though, is that "learn by doing" skill systems universally suck. Removing victory dancing is putting a bandaid over a severed limb. You realize that when victory dancing was removed -- several years ago -- it was replaced wholesale with a system where you pick exactly where your points go. It is not "learn by doing" in any sense. There's a menu and you turn on the skill you want and then XP goes to that skill. e: You can optionally have it automatically distribute your XP but it's... optional. And even then it only puts XP into the skills you've chosen to train. megane fucked around with this message at 23:33 on Sep 18, 2016 |
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Sep 18, 2016 23:29
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Victory dancing sucked. The new system is pretty good actually. I basically open that menu once at the start of the game and then don't worry about it (unless something major changes my original plan).
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Sep 18, 2016 23:36
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:Yeah, being ridiculously hard to beat is no problem. "Progress" in many of these games has nothing to do with "did I win or not?", it's about relative mastery. Wow, this states exactly my problem with Rogue Legacy that I've had trouble putting into words. It's Not A Fun Game. Don't buy it, lurkers. Get Qud or Necrodancer instead.
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Sep 18, 2016 23:45
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:purestrain Crawl, adding new kludges I'm shocked to hear someone other than minmay complain about adding new poo poo to Crawl
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Sep 18, 2016 23:48
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the roguelike meetup was a ton of fun. everyone i met there was extremely friendly, everyone was just there to have a good time talking about games they loved. (or love to hate, you know.) hopefully there'll be another meetup next year!
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Sep 18, 2016 23:48
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nutranurse posted:Wow, this states exactly my problem with Rogue Legacy that I've had trouble putting into words. It's Not A Fun Game. Don't buy it, lurkers. I second both statement.
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Sep 18, 2016 23:49
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nutranurse posted:Wow, this states exactly my problem with Rogue Legacy that I've had trouble putting into words. It's Not A Fun Game. Don't buy it, lurkers. Dungeonmans is another suitable alternative, and more purestrain roguelike in that it's specifically about crawling dungeons and finding loot as opposed to Qud's survival sim and Necrodancer's rhythm game. Mind you, all three are outstanding.
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Sep 18, 2016 23:52
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Roctavian posted:I'm shocked to hear someone other than minmay complain about adding new poo poo to Crawl I've got nothing against new content, I'm just still distrustful of the game that solved "players are mapping the labyrinth by hand" by making labyrinths more of a pain in the rear end than ever, "solved" pillar dancing by giving monsters a 1/10th chance of getting an extra move, solved the issue of spell diversity by giving us circular spell ranges with a square sight range, etc.
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Sep 18, 2016 23:53
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StrixNebulosa posted:Dungeonmans is another suitable alternative, and more purestrain roguelike in that it's specifically about crawling dungeons and finding loot as opposed to Qud's survival sim and Necrodancer's rhythm game. True, and Dungeonmans manages to get the whole, "Die but still progress," thing right.
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Sep 18, 2016 23:54
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:I've got nothing against new content, I'm just still distrustful of the game that solved "players are mapping the labyrinth by hand" by making labyrinths more of a pain in the rear end than ever, "solved" pillar dancing by giving monsters a 1/10th chance of getting an extra move, solved the issue of spell diversity by giving us circular spell ranges with a square sight range, etc. You ain't wrong, but hopefully someday they remove labs and make all monsters move faster than players
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Sep 19, 2016 00:09
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madjackmcmad posted:The DCSS talk made me feel so happy because he drilled on a point I often champion: the search for "optimal" play at the cost of fun is a malady. He talked about how in Crawl you used to be able to cast magic darts at walls or punch bats forever to grind out stats, and how boring that was. But he also talked about how monsters with really dangerous weapons (like a Scimitar of Disrupting) were extra bad news because when they died and dropped their gear, another monster could pick it up if you didn't. This means that players would find dangerous gear that they didn't want or couldn't carry and cart the gear over to a pool of lava to make sure it was destroyed. That felt like "optimal" play but also stupid busywork, and so monsters can no longer pick up gear. I think even more than it being a malady, the biggest point he made (that I agree with) is that it's not the players problem, it's the devs - that in a mastery-focused game, it's the dev's responsibility to make the optimal way to play the game also be the most fun. I actually just want to link the talk because it's really good. Non-modality makes a game "feel" like a roguelike, but often runs counter to the design principles of RLs. I've definitely noticed myself gravitating more and more to the instance-and-overmap model games like Invisible Inc. and Renowned Explorers recently, just because it's so much easier for them to hew to pure designs. Actually, given the topic of "Let's talk Roguelike Definitions Vol 27", I think one really meaningful distinction is between mastery-oriented roguelikes and historical roguelikes. Roguelikes have had such staying power partly because they were mastery-oriented in a way very few single player games were or are. But they weren't designed explicitly with mastery in mind - they were designed to create a dungeon crawling experience that you could generate from a very small file. The fact that you couldn't just memorize or grind your way through was sort of a happy accident. But roguelikes have this staying power largely because people like being challenged in single player games in a way where a HOM can't trivialize it by having patience - you can only win by being good, no walkthroughs or grinding or anything else. And there are objective design rules that can make a game more or less like this. In fact those rules are often quite strict, because your design is only as pure as your least pure element, in terms of grind-free games. This is why design oriented players can come off as very grumpy and whiny sometimes (and this is very much including myself, to be clear); since being a game that immune to grinding is essentially boolean. What some people view as a minor issue (let's say the Bones file in Nethack) completely compromises the design to a grumpus like me. So it's the difference between players who want a game that has difficult, grind-and-memorization proof gameplay - the sort of gameplay that Rogue took a major leap towards but didn't hit in totality - and players who want games that are, well, like Rogue - thematic, non-modal adventurer games. I think of the later ones as Berlinlikes in my head; I don't know of a good name for the former. We probably need a good word for it, because there are a lot of people who actually like these games when they say they "like roguelikes". hito fucked around with this message at 00:25 on Sep 19, 2016 |
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Sep 19, 2016 00:19
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:I finally beat DoomRL, time to try a build that isn't shotgun. imo after you've done a shotgun run, your next one should be melee because it will teach you about how to properly lure enemies into doorways and other blind spots so that you can punch them a lot. Marine and Technician both work for this though I kind of recommend Technician first because I think their melee capstone is a lot more interesting in how you go about it.
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Sep 19, 2016 01:49
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HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:Nobody should, but having a genre name like that causes these arguments and discussions. It's why I'm bloody glad League of Legends coined the MOBA and it stuck, because MOBA is a much better genre title than "Dota-clone". Some Dota players still get mad about the term "moba". And others use the much superior "ASSFAGGOTS": Aeon of Strife Styled Fortress Assault Game Going On Two Sides (Aeon of Strive was actually before DotA, too. I guess nobody says "Aeon of Strife clone" for the same reason nobody called FPSes "wolfenstein clones": it just wasn't anywhere near as popular. nutranurse posted:Wow, this states exactly my problem with Rogue Legacy that I've had trouble putting into words. It's Not A Fun Game. Don't buy it, lurkers. I actually liked the game but it definitely isn't roguelikey at all and won't scratch the "roguelike itch". Part of me just gets really satisfied by making numbers go up I guess. The numbers are all "metagame" upgrades that you get between lives though -- it's not at all permadeath if you look at progress as being the upgrade level of your "legacy" instead of the individual knights. RPATDO_LAMD fucked around with this message at 02:06 on Sep 19, 2016 |
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Sep 19, 2016 01:56
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Stelas posted:imo after you've done a shotgun run, your next one should be melee because it will teach you about how to properly lure enemies into doorways and other blind spots so that you can punch them a lot. Marine and Technician both work for this though I kind of recommend Technician first because I think their melee capstone is a lot more interesting in how you go about it. I did Angel of Berserk as a Marine and had a blast, although I don't think you can go wrong with any of the melee masteries, they're all pretty great. Technician is probably the one that's least cool but most likely to save your rear end.
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Sep 19, 2016 02:06
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ToxicFrog posted:Technician is probably the one that's least cool but most likely to save your rear end. I would argue there's something inherently cool in watching your resistances soar, but then I like numbers. At the very least I think it's more appropriate for a newer player who isn't sure when to rush.
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Sep 19, 2016 02:08
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RPATDO_LAMD posted:Some Dota players still get mad about the term "moba". I definitely heard dota described as an AoS or AoS-like, way back when.
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Sep 19, 2016 02:09
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Stelas posted:I would argue there's something inherently cool in watching your resistances soar, but then I like numbers. At the very least I think it's more appropriate for a newer player who isn't sure when to rush. Yeah, that doesn't really do it for me. On the other hand, healing by bathing in the blood of your enemies and especially getting an extra turn each time you kill something up close are  . Especially since a high-level berserker is going to be reliably one-shotting most targets.Angel of Berserk had a pretty rough start but I think I enjoyed most of all the Angel weapon challenges.
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Sep 19, 2016 02:18
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:yeah this definitely sounds like purestrain Crawl, fixing problems created by your underlying systems by adding new kludges and removing cool things because they have non-intuitive solutions both massively improve the actual experience of playing the videogame, because neither of those things were fun to do, at all, and if you wanted to win they both were fairly important to do Tuxedo Catfish posted:Absolutely. The problem with Crawl's skill system, though, is that "learn by doing" skill systems universally suck. Removing victory dancing is putting a bandaid over a severed limb. LazyMaybe fucked around with this message at 03:38 on Sep 19, 2016 |
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Sep 19, 2016 03:36
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DoomRL server question: if I added an in-browser telnet client to the website, would anyone use it? Or is everyone happy with /usr/bin/telnet?
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Sep 19, 2016 03:43
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IronicDongz posted:...but the "new" system(pretty old, now) isn't a learn by doing system at all? You choose where everything goes. You can kill 100% of things with a sword and put all the XP into fire magic if you want to, not by doing annoying things like casting throw flame at a wall repeatedly but just by switching it on in the skills menu. Yeah I flubbed this, I've had no desire to revisit Crawl for quite some time and I misunderstood secondhand accounts of how the system works. As long as the player is given complete control of their XP budget, my main issue with learn-by-doing systems doesn't apply.
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Sep 19, 2016 03:48
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Monsters using unclaimed drops against you is cool though, it's just not great if the only cost of counter-play is time and tedium.
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Sep 19, 2016 03:52
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Monsters using unclaimed drops against you is cool though, it's just not great if the only cost of counter-play is time and tedium. agreed! imo you should try dcss again at some point; i suspect you'd still dislike it, but it'd be interesting to see criticisms of what the game actually is, rather than what it was five years ago 
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Sep 19, 2016 04:00
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It was fun doing the magic sword trap where a hundred deep elves would walk one at a time around a blind corner and each and every one of them would waste turns picking up and equipping a cool item while you bashed their faces in.
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Sep 19, 2016 04:37
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Roguelike celebration was right off the charts good. Every talk I saw was a slam dunk, every dev was a dapper, charming gentleperson and every fan had only the most attire appropriate fedora. Make it next time if you didn't this time.
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Sep 19, 2016 05:26
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You guys are making me want to give Biskup 19.89 of my hard earned Australian dollars after describing him as a nice guy  How bad a game is ADOM? Please discourage me!
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Sep 19, 2016 07:26
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it's pretty old-school in a lot of ways, which is something that can entirely be a selling point for people. your mileage may vary
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Sep 19, 2016 07:28
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Unimpressed posted:You guys are making me want to give Biskup 19.89 of my hard earned Australian dollars after describing him as a nice guy You can play the free version to try it out. If you have fun, buy it.
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Sep 19, 2016 07:40
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RPATDO_LAMD posted:You can play the free version to try it out. If you have fun, buy it. Haven't there been lots of changes since the steam release or are they not really something that would make a difference to the core experience?
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Sep 19, 2016 07:42
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Unormal posted:Roguelike celebration was right off the charts good. Every talk I saw was a slam dunk, every dev was a dapper, charming gentleperson and every fan had only the most attire appropriate fedora. Make it next time if you didn't this time. I was going to go last minute but it looked like they sold out of tickets. Maybe they'll get a bigger venue next time.
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Sep 19, 2016 08:23
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Unimpressed posted:Haven't there been lots of changes since the steam release or are they not really something that would make a difference to the core experience? http://www.adom.de/home/faq.html posted:Q: What's the difference between the Free and Deluxe ADOM versions? When it was still being developed the free version lagged behind the paid version in terms of features and stuff, but I think the free version is now just as up-to-date as the steam one. It's just missing features like achievements and explore mode, and I think it has a splash screen that advertises the paid version on startup.
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Sep 19, 2016 08:34
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I believe the free version lacks the star sign selector. anyways i'm an ADOM apologist and i think the game's real cool. try the free version and if you like it enough to want to throw money/pick raven sign every time god damnit then you can throw money at Biskup
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Sep 19, 2016 16:32
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furthermore, if you want Instant Tips And Help From Top Players Who Are Very Handsome and want to see this image  a whole bunch then track down the r/roguelikes discord because it's shockingly good and the adom channel is filled with nerds who love to help, and also post biskup.jpg
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Sep 19, 2016 16:35
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BetterLekNextTime posted:I was going to go last minute but it looked like they sold out of tickets. Maybe they'll get a bigger venue next time. The venue was the Eventbrite offices. Like the actual place where they work, complete with open floor plan gulags and a kitchen full of developer food we weren't allowed to eat. They had one roaming security guard kindly guiding us away from the parts of the office we weren't supposed to be in. There's also a scrum board right next to the second track talk room that has an additional blue post-it note for "Shep", who is probably not a team member there but just might be.
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Sep 19, 2016 19:08
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Usually I roll my eyes at novelty socks, but I would wear those rogue"like" socks. 
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Sep 19, 2016 19:10
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Procedural Death Stockings.
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Sep 19, 2016 19:59
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novelty socks are the reason socks were invented. i won't hear otherwise
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Sep 19, 2016 20:03
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I've enjoyed almost all of the changes to crawl over the last couple of years. My biggest remaining complaint is comestibles - there's just too dang many. In your average 3 runer, it's the norm to have 10 hw potions and 4-5 speed/agibility/might potions by zot, to say nothing of the key wands. There are few threats in the game that can't be dealt with by popping all the buffs available to you. Once you get used to liberally using comestibles and knowing when to flee a fight (well before you're below 50%), it's pretty easy to win. I wouldn't mind seeing an overall reduction in pots and wands in the game.
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Sep 19, 2016 22:09
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I like you're using the term comestible or "item of food" to describe potions (granted, they are drunk) and wands (uh). Rarely used word that was nearly applicable in this situation!
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Sep 19, 2016 22:49
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He just means consumable, geez. I play roguelikes to expand my vocabulary and learn weird words like bardiche and torpor.
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Sep 19, 2016 22:58
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Oh sorry, I'm was actually thrilled that trying to spell consumable nearly got a workable term. Sometimes I forget that sarcasm is the default expectation online.
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Sep 19, 2016 23:02
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