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I just auto resolve siege battles because they aren't fun and I always bring overwhelming numbers.
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Sep 19, 2016 18:41
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Mans posted:Dwarves are really cool. Nah man, jamming rifles and hammers down their throats is always more than fine the whole game long.
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Sep 19, 2016 18:41
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Mans posted:Dwarves are really cool. Trollhammer Torpedoes are very good against giants, trolls (duh), and other massive things that have small model counts but large health pools. Unfortunately for them, Cannons and Thunderers can do the same job with slightly less efficiency but much more versatility.
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Sep 19, 2016 19:13
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Mans posted:Dwarves are really cool. Actually everyone above me is somewhat wrong. I and another goon did some multiplayer testing on this, and the trollhammer torpedos are no longer "torpedos" or "missiles" only fit to fire at bigger targets. With the advent of CA fixing explosive damage, the torpedos are now like a souped up grenade launcher and will chew through infantry units within moments. Its staggering how strong it was and it was the biggest surprise of our testing. Two volleys was enough to shred most orc troops into gibbering piles of flesh, only Black Orcs lasted a bit longer, but not that much. Thats not to say that the other dwarfen ranged units aren't bad either and you can totally rely on them alone, but if you want a fun explosion adventures i'd say go for some trollhammers bro!
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Sep 19, 2016 20:22
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I need to test this out; Trollhammers being T4 and not being gently caress-everything rocket launcher dwarves is kinda bullshit, and if that's no longer the case then bring on the goddamn rockets.
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Sep 19, 2016 20:28
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toasterwarrior posted:I need to test this out; Trollhammers being T4 and not being gently caress-everything rocket launcher dwarves is kinda bullshit, and if that's no longer the case then bring on the goddamn rockets. Yeah its the same underlying reason that made mortars go from being decent to now being amazing when they hit dead on, they reworked explosive damage in some way and it shows with trollhammers, gyros and flame cannons the most.
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Sep 19, 2016 20:36
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Gejnor posted:Yeah its the same underlying reason that made mortars go from being decent to now being amazing when they hit dead on, they reworked explosive damage in some way and it shows with trollhammers, gyros and flame cannons the most. Well, tried out some tests before I head to bed, comparing Thunderers vs. Trollhammer Irondrakes against Goblins, Boyz, Big 'Uns, and Black Orcs (using Steel Faith Overhaul, which buffs both so I guess it's still relevant even to vanilla players). Basically, Thunderers caused more overall damage before lines collided thanks to their range and firing speed over three volleys, while the Trollhammers only managed to fire one yet managed to score more kills. Gobbos and the Boyz took less damage thanks to their shields, while the Blorcs took the least overall thanks to their greater health pool. I don't see Trollhammers replacing Thunderers outright, but I can certainly see a case for them to finally be used in late-game armies just as Irondrakes are used in mid-game armies: highly-mobile squads that can stand with the Thunderers before melee contact to blast away against key targets, fall back, and then squeeze into gaps in the melee to open fire into flanks. What concerns me is the slots they're taking; once Chaos rolls around, I'm dropping my four units of GW Quarrellers for Slayers to dogpile Chaos cavalry and monsters, and if I take a pair of Trollhammers, will two units of Slayers be good enough against enemy flankers?
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Sep 19, 2016 20:49
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toasterwarrior posted:Well, tried out some tests before I head to bed, comparing Thunderers vs. Trollhammer Irondrakes against Goblins, Boyz, Big 'Uns, and Black Orcs (using Steel Faith Overhaul, which buffs both so I guess it's still relevant even to vanilla players). Basically, Thunderers caused more overall damage before lines collided thanks to their range and firing speed over three volleys, while the Trollhammers only managed to fire one yet managed to score more kills. Gobbos and the Boyz took less damage thanks to their shields, while the Blorcs took the least overall thanks to their greater health pool. I personally do not like slayers, even with my own little mod giving them +40 armour, they are fast yes but if you have everything bunched up like a proper dwarf then why not use hammerers instead who are basically better in every way? They lose that bonus vs large but instead they are pure AP damage and are still tanky as gently caress. Oh also, i assume you did this with baseline skills in a custom battle. Nothing wrong with that but you didn't have veterancy, techs, redline skills and of course the master engineer. Ive noticed that with all those things dwarf ranged goes from good to insane, and trollhammers definately fall under this as well.
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Sep 19, 2016 21:10
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I dearly wish that the White Dwarf becomes good for assassinating other heroes, otherwise the dwarf run is just a mass of arse.
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Sep 19, 2016 22:06
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So how do you actually play Chaos on the tactical map? I guess drawing a line of Chosen and attack moving across the map works. Doesn't feel all that satisfying though.
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Sep 19, 2016 22:17
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genericnick posted:So how do you actually play Chaos on the tactical map? I guess drawing a line of Chosen and attack moving across the map works. Doesn't feel all that satisfying though. You generally wanna envelope the enemy. Since you don't have ranged you'll generally have a longer line than them. Put heavy infantry in the middle and lighter infantry in the sides, and poison warhounds/horsemen in the wings to go after their ranged units and then rear charge engaged units. Use your hellcannons to snipe outside of their maximum range to force the AI to come to you. If they lack ranged units you can also use horsemen for harassment, just set them on skirmish mode.
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Sep 19, 2016 22:28
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genericnick posted:So how do you actually play Chaos on the tactical map? I guess drawing a line of Chosen and attack moving across the map works. Doesn't feel all that satisfying though. Step 1 Set up a frontline. Step 2 Select Hellcannon and press insert to go into manual aim. Step 3 Learn how to aim the guided shots. Step 4 Enjoy the explosion and gore as the possessed shells tear up the enemy lines turning them into fine paste. Finally once enemy lines closes with you, exit the cannon and send in all the "your choice of badass monster unit here" against the enemy troops currently engaged with your marauders/warriors/chosen frontline. I find that Chosen are slow and not that interesting to use, they're a great unit but often overkill, I rather take marauder and warrior mix frontline to make sure I can afford the upkeep for more of the actual cool and fun units in the Chaos rooster.
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Sep 19, 2016 22:37
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Are dwarfs still bottom of the pile in multiplayer, out of interest?
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Sep 19, 2016 22:56
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Gorebulls are great on the field heroes, but I find it hilarious that they can still do assassinations. The image of a twelve foot tall bull man sneaking into an enemy camp to assassinate someone is appealing to me.
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Sep 19, 2016 23:02
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Arcsquad12 posted:Gorebulls are great on the field heroes, but I find it hilarious that they can still do assassinations. The image of a twelve foot tall bull man sneaking into an enemy camp to assassinate someone is appealing to me. The way they assassinate a lord is to line it up from 5 miles outside camp. They take a big axe, get some momentum, go in one end of the camp, out the other with the target and off the cliff with the guy.
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Sep 19, 2016 23:34
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Choyi posted:the actual cool and fun units in the Chaos rooster. Chaos Rooster does sound like a cool and fun unit I gotta say
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Sep 19, 2016 23:54
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Arcsquad12 posted:Gorebulls are great on the field heroes, but I find it hilarious that they can still do assassinations. The image of a twelve foot tall bull man sneaking into an enemy camp to assassinate someone is appealing to me.
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Sep 20, 2016 02:20
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Ravenfood posted:All of the assassinations are kind of hilarious. What the hell is my Witch Hunter doing to Kholek, and how exactly did he get in their army undetected anyhow? Peanuts and bees, respectively or irrespectively, not sure, all I know is that Kholek has an allergy to one of those.
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Sep 20, 2016 02:26
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Ravenfood posted:All of the assassinations are kind of hilarious. What the hell is my Witch Hunter doing to Kholek, and how exactly did he get in their army undetected anyhow? They should bring back the assassination mini movies from Shogun 1 and 2, or Medieval 2, but make them Warhammer style.
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Sep 20, 2016 02:32
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Yukitsu posted:The way they assassinate a lord is to line it up from 5 miles outside camp. They take a big axe, get some momentum, go in one end of the camp, out the other with the target and off the cliff with the guy.
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Sep 20, 2016 02:41
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Gejnor posted:Oh also, i assume you did this with baseline skills in a custom battle. Nothing wrong with that but you didn't have veterancy, techs, redline skills and of course the master engineer. Ive noticed that with all those things dwarf ranged goes from good to insane, and trollhammers definately fall under this as well. I mean yeah, I can't just rustle up a bunch of Trollhammers and convenient targets at a moment's notice. When it comes to tech differences, I fear that Thunderers may have an edge since they get reload rate reduction and damage, while Irondrakes only get damage (and a miniscule increase of range). Maybe veterancy and Master Engineer buffs are enough to swing it over to their favor, but I sincerely doubt they'll be able to replace Slayers/Thunderers entirely. I'll definitely try them out in conjunction with them, though.
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Sep 20, 2016 05:38
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toasterwarrior posted:I mean yeah, I can't just rustle up a bunch of Trollhammers and convenient targets at a moment's notice. When it comes to tech differences, I fear that Thunderers may have an edge since they get reload rate reduction and damage, while Irondrakes only get damage (and a miniscule increase of range). Maybe veterancy and Master Engineer buffs are enough to swing it over to their favor, but I sincerely doubt they'll be able to replace Slayers/Thunderers entirely. I'll definitely try them out in conjunction with them, though. Trollhammers do have an arc though and can fire over a line.
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Sep 20, 2016 05:46
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Mordja posted:Trollhammers do have an arc though and can fire over a line. I remember checking for this pre-patch so I did another one, but unfortunately torpedoes have a very shallow arc, similar to Organ Gun shots. At about halfway through their range, they count as obstructed when firing from the back of a shield unit, though they still can fire off some shots of opportunity. Unfortunately, this leads to some serious friendly fire since torpedoes do AP damage, which flamethrowers do not. The arc does make crossfiring from the rear (as in, moving a Trollhammer unit off to its side but still behind a shield unit to fire at the enemy melee unit from an angle) possible but still very dangerous for your own lines. Their short range is their biggest problem, and their small unit size hints that the best way to use them is just like their flamethrower version's: as a powerful and mobile squad of flankers. Admittedly, they do fantastic damage to everything they hit. Trolls would rout before hitting melee, and Lords get solid chunks off their health taken off while getting knocked down to boot. Also, I found out that torpedo shots count as artillery for morale purposes, which is very useful. Gejnor posted:I personally do not like slayers, even with my own little mod giving them +40 armour, they are fast yes but if you have everything bunched up like a proper dwarf then why not use hammerers instead who are basically better in every way? They lose that bonus vs large but instead they are pure AP damage and are still tanky as gently caress. Speed's the reason, mostly. Slayers are fast enough to catch inconvenient chargers at the flanks and are quicker to rout enemy large units than Hammerers even if they lose more health faster; but when I think speed, I mostly mean how it only takes one turn to recruit Slayers when they die. And they will certainly die because Slayers will never retreat, which is a big deal because it means they can also tarpit very effectively.
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Sep 20, 2016 06:42
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Zephro posted:Are dwarfs still bottom of the pile in multiplayer, out of interest?
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Sep 20, 2016 06:53
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Olive Branch posted:While I got killed by Yukitsu in a random match when he was VC, I won as Dwarfs vs. Beastmen and Brettonia relatively well, so I think they're not THAT bad. What I've noticed is that most players don't custom make their army for each match, they simply have a bunch of pre-made saved armies that they use come hell or high water, so a lot of people on quick match can be beaten by dwarves due to a lack of dedicated anti-dwarf builds. It's really, really hard to beat anyone that makes their army from scratch before each match and keeps in mind that they are against dwarves however. They're definitely at the bottom right now but it's not as though they're down there by a huge margin. The gap between them and the Empire which is probably the strongest faction is a bit wide but they're pretty close to Chaos, Beastmen and Brettonia. I think orcs are currently their worst matchup due to a great mix of units that work well against dwarves but it may actually be undead that counter them hardest due to summoning poo poo in their back lines.
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Sep 20, 2016 07:25
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toasterwarrior posted:Speed's the reason, mostly. Slayers are fast enough to catch inconvenient chargers at the flanks and are quicker to rout enemy large units than Hammerers even if they lose more health faster; but when I think speed, I mostly mean how it only takes one turn to recruit Slayers when they die. And they will certainly die because Slayers will never retreat, which is a big deal because it means they can also tarpit very effectively. And on the flipside Hammerers do not rout easily either, like any dwarf unit they have to take so much damage as to be near 15-10% numbers before they break that they too can tarpit very very well if needed and they are almost equally as good DPS-wise, their damage value is really high (higher than the base damage slayers do) and as said earlier, pure AP. Since they won't be entirely destroyed (if they are even heavily wounded, with slayers thats a gaurantee, with hammerers? not so much) you dont need to build new ones every turn like slayers. This saves you turncost time, and since they'll be doing a lot of damage you'll find that they'll rank up fast as well which makes them hardier, more dpsy AND they'll take longer before they break. toasterwarrior posted:I mean yeah, I can't just rustle up a bunch of Trollhammers and convenient targets at a moment's notice. When it comes to tech differences, I fear that Thunderers may have an edge since they get reload rate reduction and damage, while Irondrakes only get damage (and a miniscule increase of range). Maybe veterancy and Master Engineer buffs are enough to swing it over to their favor, but I sincerely doubt they'll be able to replace Slayers/Thunderers entirely. I'll definitely try them out in conjunction with them, though. If theres any a unit that'd benefit greatly from a master engineer i think its trollhammers with that 40% reload reduction skill, if they then also have some veterancy in them which also reduces their reload times.. well.. You can imagine the rest!
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Sep 20, 2016 16:13
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So random question: is it ever really worth it to take shield infantry over GW infantry? Like given two units of equal tier (say, Chaos Warriors or Grave Knights), it seems like the only thing shields do is provide a chance to deflect ranged attacks from the front - they don't seem to get extra armour or melee defense or anything and it just seems like the damage/AP provided by great weapons has more utility.
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Sep 20, 2016 16:57
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Just played the Von Carstein Ring Vlad's quest battle and is super bullshit, I'm not attempting this ever again, luckily the ring is pretty uninspiring as a reward. Seriously, who thought that a regenerating 7k+hp vampire lord, scripted to flee a couple times, who keeps resurrecting his entire army and summoning hordes of grave guards would be fun as a quest battle?
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Sep 20, 2016 17:01
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The Cheshire Cat posted:So random question: is it ever really worth it to take shield infantry over GW infantry? Like given two units of equal tier (say, Chaos Warriors or Grave Knights), it seems like the only thing shields do is provide a chance to deflect ranged attacks from the front - they don't seem to get extra armour or melee defense or anything and it just seems like the damage/AP provided by great weapons has more utility. Depends on how much ranged damage you are expecting to receive. When fighting Dwarfs, Empire or Bretonnia it is generally a good idea to have a frontline outfitted with shields to minimize damage, otherwise go hog wild on Great Weapon troops.
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Sep 20, 2016 17:04
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Yeah generally if you're not expecting too much in the way of ranged combat, you can field some units with a bit more punch in a brawl.
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Sep 20, 2016 17:06
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The Cheshire Cat posted:So random question: is it ever really worth it to take shield infantry over GW infantry? Like given two units of equal tier (say, Chaos Warriors or Grave Knights), it seems like the only thing shields do is provide a chance to deflect ranged attacks from the front - they don't seem to get extra armour or melee defense or anything and it just seems like the damage/AP provided by great weapons has more utility. In multiplayer or in campaign? In multiplayer, the fact that almost all of them have slightly lower stats and higher costs means they're not as cost effective against unarmoured opponents as their shielded direct equivalent. So a regular dwarf warrior for example not only does better in melee against low armour targets than great weapon warriors, they're also cheaper. In campaign, GW infantry is stuff like great swords who are all around better and the cost difference doesn't matter as much. The only reason you'd take something like regular swordsmen is if you're in the earlier game and need to save on cost or upkeep.
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Sep 20, 2016 17:09
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I find shield gors useless for that purpose while the standard ones have vanguard deployment and can attack front lines before the archers can hit them.
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Sep 20, 2016 17:10
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Angry Lobster posted:Just played the Von Carstein Ring Vlad's quest battle and is super bullshit, I'm not attempting this ever again, luckily the ring is pretty uninspiring as a reward. Seriously, who thought that a regenerating 7k+hp vampire lord, scripted to flee a couple times, who keeps resurrecting his entire army and summoning hordes of grave guards would be fun as a quest battle? The ring quest I found to be super easy if Vlad's your LL and I wound up easily beating it my first try. His starting army is trash until they upgrade to grave guard, there's a significant enough cooldown on it that you can fully wipe units before they turn to grave guard, and you can vanguard deploy directly behind him. You can basically surround him from the word go and give him nowhere to run. His armor is kind of poo poo and he can only poison one unit at a time, so send both Vlad and a horse riding Vampire hero after him and run him down and spirit leech him when he tries to run.
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Sep 20, 2016 17:11
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honga claims dwarf units with shields get an extra +35 shield armor, but that isn't corroborated by the game itself. I might have to do some digging later.
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Sep 20, 2016 17:11
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Yeah, I think I'm turning around on Hammerers vs. Slayers. The difference in time usually comes down to seconds, and looking over the tech tree, Hammerer upgrades are much easier to get to than Slayer upgrades. The big difference in their upgrades is that Slayer can get +20% to charge, which while nice, tends to be insignificant when applied to infantry charge stats; in comparison, Hammerers can get more armor and melee defense (+5 each IIRC), which matters a lot more in melee calculations. Also yeah, Irondrakes benefit so much from Master Engineers, and that's with both varieties. I've had battles where elite Irondrake units would rout Greenskin infantry below Black Orcs attempting a head-on charge, thanks to the Steel Faith mod letting all Dwarfish projectiles (which includes flamethrower jets) stagger enemies and reload reduction bonuses stacking to the point where the Irondrakes could reload in 2 seconds. It was beautiful.
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Sep 20, 2016 17:12
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Oh! In modding news, Cataph just released a roster expansion for Kraka Drak, of all people. Seems like it could be interesting - melee-focused Dwarfs without gunpowder and with Norsca auxiliaries. Also they thump Chaos rather than Orcs.
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Sep 20, 2016 17:27
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Wafflecopper posted:Chaos Rooster does sound like a cool and fun unit I gotta say Isn't the Lord of Change already in the game? 
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Sep 20, 2016 17:40
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brocretin posted:Oh! In modding news, Cataph just released a roster expansion for Kraka Drak, of all people. Seems like it could be interesting - melee-focused Dwarfs without gunpowder and with Norsca auxiliaries. Also they thump Chaos rather than Orcs. Wouldn't fighting Norscans be SUPER frustrating as dwarfs? Especially early game before you get nice artillery?
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Sep 20, 2016 17:51
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Kaza42 posted:Wouldn't fighting Norscans be SUPER frustrating as dwarfs? Especially early game before you get nice artillery? Which is probably a big reason why he gave them Norscan auxiliaries, including Marauder Horsemen.
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Sep 20, 2016 17:54
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Kaza42 posted:Wouldn't fighting Norscans be SUPER frustrating as dwarfs? Especially early game before you get nice artillery? I'd think Quarrellers would make short work of Marauder Horsemen most of the time.
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Sep 20, 2016 17:55
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