Coding Horrors: You can gather all your technical debt into one easy framework!

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Serious Hardware/Software Crap > The Cavern of COBOL > Coding Horrors: You can gather all your technical debt into one easy framework!

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xtal: Jan 9, 2011; by Fluffdaddy

hobbesmaster posted:

Huh? Aren't we taking about C++?

Sorry I thought we were talking hypotheticals. I know that C++ does not consider commas to be whitespace even though commas are whitespace.

# ? Sep 19, 2016 15:52

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# ? May 16, 2024 23:32

csammis: Aug 26, 2003; Mental Institution

Only when all tokens are whitespace will we have achieved enlightenment

# ? Sep 19, 2016 15:55

xzzy: Mar 5, 2009

Obviously the next joke language should be one that uses nothing but spaces, tabs, and commas.

# ? Sep 19, 2016 16:10

Depressing Box: Jun 27, 2010; Half-price sideshow.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitespace_(programming_language)

# ? Sep 19, 2016 16:12

hobbesmaster: Jan 28, 2008

csammis posted:

Only when all tokens are whitespace will we have achieved enlightenment

Someone is way ahead of you.

# ? Sep 19, 2016 16:13

xzzy: Mar 5, 2009

Depressing Box posted:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitespace_(programming_language)

I should have assumed it had already been done.

# ? Sep 19, 2016 16:15

csammis: Aug 26, 2003; Mental Institution

Whitespace is the only language which exhibits Buddha-nature, for it is indistinguishable from no code at all

# ? Sep 19, 2016 16:18

Lumpy: Apr 26, 2002; La! La! La! Laaaa!; College Slice

xzzy posted:

Obviously the next joke language should be one that uses nothing but spaces, tabs, and commas.

I want to make one where the en dash, em dash, and hyphen are all different operators. Maybe something to do with assignment and equality checks...

code:

a - b
a � b
a � b

# ? Sep 19, 2016 16:49

xzzy: Mar 5, 2009

Don't forget the double hyphen which will gently caress anyone up who uses an editor that automatically converts them to en/em's.

# ? Sep 19, 2016 16:58

raminasi: Jan 25, 2005; a last drink with no ice

Depressing Box posted:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitespace_(programming_language)

This is old news, the language made entirely out of zero-width Unicode characters is where it's at now.

# ? Sep 19, 2016 21:25

fritz: Jul 26, 2003

xtal posted:

I know that C++ does not consider commas to be whitespace even though commas are whitespace.

If commas were white space they wouldn't have that black dot with the tail in them.

# ? Sep 20, 2016 03:49

Absurd Alhazred: Mar 27, 2010; by Athanatos

Everything is actually greyspace. :geno:

# ? Sep 20, 2016 03:59

xzzy: Mar 5, 2009

Hmm, maybe we could make a programming language based on shades of grey. Like you split the range from full black to full white into a specific set of values and use that to generate your instructions. I bet if you went really nuts you could do it with just white and black!

# ? Sep 20, 2016 04:03

leper khan: Dec 28, 2010; Honest to god thinks Half Life 2 is a bad game. But at least he likes Monster Hunter.

xzzy posted:

Hmm, maybe we could make a programming language based on shades of grey. Like you split the range from full black to full white into a specific set of values and use that to generate your instructions. I bet if you went really nuts you could do it with just white and black!

Wasn't that esoteric quilting language posted in here a couple pages back?

# ? Sep 20, 2016 04:13

Depressing Box: Jun 27, 2010; Half-price sideshow.

xzzy posted:

Hmm, maybe we could make a programming language based on shades of grey. Like you split the range from full black to full white into a specific set of values and use that to generate your instructions. I bet if you went really nuts you could do it with just white and black!

I don't know about about black and white, but I've seen it with colors. Here's Hello World:

# ? Sep 20, 2016 04:25

FrantzX: Jan 28, 2007

There is no idea so bad that no one hasn't implemented it.

# ? Sep 20, 2016 11:23

dwazegek: Feb 11, 2005; WE CAN USE THIS

FrantzX posted:

There is no idea so bad that no one hasn't implemented it.

If esoteric language are bad ideas, then I don't want to be right :colbert:

# ? Sep 20, 2016 11:41

NihilCredo: Jun 6, 2011; iram omni possibili modo preme:
plus una illa te diffamabit, quam multæ virtutes commendabunt

FrantzX posted:

There is no idea so bad that no one hasn't implemented it.

php6

# ? Sep 20, 2016 12:21

TooMuchAbstraction: Oct 14, 2012; I spent four years making
Waves of Steel
Hell yes I'm going to turn my avatar into an ad for it.; Fun Shoe

FrantzX posted:

There is no idea so bad that no one hasn't implemented it.

The Rule 34 of programming.

# ? Sep 20, 2016 15:04

Depressing Box: Jun 27, 2010; Half-price sideshow.

FrantzX posted:

There is no idea so bad that no one hasn't implemented it.

How about programming with music?

Fake edit: Wow, before I even finished writing this post.

# ? Sep 20, 2016 15:25

Hammerite: Mar 9, 2007; And you don't remember what I said here, either, but it was pompous and stupid.; Jade Ear Joe

FrantzX posted:

There is no idea so bad that no one hasn't implemented it.

I think you mean, "there isn't no idea so bad that no one hasn't not implemented it".

# ? Sep 20, 2016 15:30

qntm: Jun 17, 2009

Hammerite posted:

I think you mean, "there isn't no idea so bad that no one hasn't not implemented it".

Perl code:

unless($noImplementations != 0) {
    # this should be impossible
} else {
    # wait, was that "number of implementations" or "no implementations"?
}

# ? Sep 20, 2016 15:36

McGlockenshire: Dec 16, 2005; GOLLOCKS!

qntm posted:

Perl code:

unless($noImplementations != 0) {
    # this should be impossible
} else {
    # wait, was that "number of implementations" or "no implementations"?
}

Perl code:

die q!Very long error that causes horizontal scrolling! unless condition();

# ? Sep 21, 2016 21:46

feedmegin: Jul 30, 2008

xzzy posted:

Hmm, maybe we could make a programming language based on shades of grey. Like you split the range from full black to full white into a specific set of values and use that to generate your instructions. I bet if you went really nuts you could do it with just white and black!

50 shades? I mean, I have heard of bondage and discipline languages :getin:

# ? Sep 22, 2016 11:38

canis minor: May 4, 2011

qntm posted:

Perl code:

unless($noImplementations != 0) {

This reminds me of

quote:

!is_not_valid != 0

edit: From today:

code:

- <li>Copyright 2015</li>
+ <li>Copyright 2016</li>

We're using Smarty, so it's easily done per {$smarty.now|date_format:"Y"}. The worst thing though is that it doesn't phase me anymore and instead of fixing, I'm mocking it.

canis minor fucked around with this message at 15:21 on Sep 22, 2016

# ? Sep 22, 2016 13:04

leper khan: Dec 28, 2010; Honest to god thinks Half Life 2 is a bad game. But at least he likes Monster Hunter.

My boss wants to wrap a gpl library. I tried telling him you can't do that (without spreading the plague) then he started spewing reductionist things. Hopefully he'll talk it over with a lawyer. :frolf:

Why is open source compliance so hard for people to understand? The terms are relatively simple.

# ? Sep 28, 2016 16:09

xzzy: Mar 5, 2009

Because in most people's heads if they don't have to pay money for it they should be able to exploit it in whatever way they see fit. If someone actually cared about it they would have charged for it!

# ? Sep 28, 2016 16:13

Hughlander: May 11, 2005

leper khan posted:

My boss wants to wrap a gpl library. I tried telling him you can't do that (without spreading the plague) then he started spewing reductionist things. Hopefully he'll talk it over with a lawyer.

Why is open source compliance so hard for people to understand? The terms are relatively simple.

Yes, the correct solution is to wrap the library in an IPC server and then open source the server code. Your app just needs to talk to the server API over the IPC channel of your choice! So easy!

Out of curiosity what's a GPLed library in TYOL2016 that doesn't have a MIT or BSD licensed alternative?

# ? Sep 28, 2016 16:25

leper khan: Dec 28, 2010; Honest to god thinks Half Life 2 is a bad game. But at least he likes Monster Hunter.

Hughlander posted:

Yes, the correct solution is to wrap the library in an IPC server and then open source the server code. Your app just needs to talk to the server API over the IPC channel of your choice! So easy!

Out of curiosity what's a GPLed library in TYOL2016 that doesn't have a MIT or BSD licensed alternative?

Does that work if it's GPLv3, and your application is tightly coupled to the IPC service? I was under the impression that if you're sending data structures back and forth it would be similar to shared memory which is a no-go. My usual response to GPL is to pretend anything licensed under it doesn't exist. Technical solution legal problem blah bla blah.

Some simulation library that has commercial but not permissive alternatives.

# ? Sep 28, 2016 18:13

xtal: Jan 9, 2011; by Fluffdaddy

leper khan posted:

Does that work if it's GPLv3, and your application is tightly coupled to the IPC service? I was under the impression that if you're sending data structures back and forth it would be similar to shared memory which is a no-go. My usual response to GPL is to pretend anything licensed under it doesn't exist. Technical solution legal problem blah bla blah.

Some simulation library that has commercial but not permissive alternatives.

I think the Affero GPL variant is the exception proving that rule

# ? Sep 28, 2016 22:05

Simulated: Sep 28, 2001; Lowtax giveth, and Lowtax taketh away.; College Slice

leper khan posted:

Does that work if it's GPLv3, and your application is tightly coupled to the IPC service? I was under the impression that if you're sending data structures back and forth it would be similar to shared memory which is a no-go. My usual response to GPL is to pretend anything licensed under it doesn't exist. Technical solution legal problem blah bla blah.

Some simulation library that has commercial but not permissive alternatives.

Under that interpretation how is a browser connecting to a GPLv3 web server not a violation?

# ? Sep 29, 2016 01:03

TooMuchAbstraction: Oct 14, 2012; I spent four years making
Waves of Steel
Hell yes I'm going to turn my avatar into an ad for it.; Fun Shoe

Simulated posted:

Under that interpretation how is a browser connecting to a GPLv3 web server not a violation?

Published, open protocols? :shrug:

# ? Sep 29, 2016 01:11

Hughlander: May 11, 2005

TooMuchAbstraction posted:

Published, open protocols?

You open source the server component anyone is free to make a client that talks to it!

# ? Sep 29, 2016 13:14

xtal: Jan 9, 2011; by Fluffdaddy

Simulated posted:

Under that interpretation how is a browser connecting to a GPLv3 web server not a violation?

There is a perfectly cromulent argument that a GPL JavaScript app must release the server code. It just hasn't been tested in courts.

# ? Sep 29, 2016 15:21

TheresaJayne: Jul 1, 2011

If it is a GPL library wouldnt that actually be under the LGPL licence meaning you can make derivative works which are not GPL themselves just they cannot change the library itself.without making the changed library available under LGPL

# ? Sep 29, 2016 15:27

eth0.n: Jun 1, 2012

TheresaJayne posted:

If it is a GPL library wouldnt that actually be under the LGPL licence meaning you can make derivative works which are not GPL themselves just they cannot change the library itself.without making the changed library available under LGPL

GPL and LGPL aren't the same, and each must be chosen specifically. Libraries are usually under LGPL, but not necessarily. For example, GNU's readline library is GPL, so anything linking it must also be GPL.

# ? Sep 29, 2016 16:08

xtal: Jan 9, 2011; by Fluffdaddy

eth0.n posted:

GPL and LGPL aren't the same, and each must be chosen specifically. Libraries are usually under LGPL, but not necessarily. For example, GNU's readline library is GPL, so anything linking it must also be GPL.

I'm not going to deny this but I can't even think of the last time I saw LGPL or AGPL in the wild, library, app or otherwise

# ? Sep 29, 2016 16:09

Suspicious Dish: Sep 24, 2011; 2020 is the year of linux on the desktop, bro; Fun Shoe

xtal posted:

There is a perfectly cromulent argument that a GPL JavaScript app must release the server code. It just hasn't been tested in courts.

The FSF don't agree with that interpretation, if anything. Their stance is that the evil is running non-free code on your computer. If someone else runs non-free code (like the server operator), sucks for them but your freedom isn't being violated, so why are you to care?

Yes, this interpretation is about 30 years out of date. But it's the argument that allows RMS to ride subways and buy things from vending machines, even while both of which are running non-free software.

# ? Sep 29, 2016 16:14

ExcessBLarg!: Sep 1, 2001

leper khan posted:

Does that work if it's GPLv3, and your application is tightly coupled to the IPC service? I was under the impression that if you're sending data structures back and forth it would be similar to shared memory which is a no-go.

Copyright applies to the distribution of protected work (e.g., software) and "derived work". The latter is a legal concept in copyright law for which there's no clear consensus how it applies to software.

For example, if you take the source code for a library, modify the source itself, and distribute the modified library as part of a product, that's a pretty clear case where the modified library constitutes a derived work of the original. However, if you build an application around that library, but don't actually modify the library itself--you merely link to it--does your application constitute a derived work of the library?

What about if you build an application that depends on a networked service, is the application still a derived work of the service? Does it matter if that networked service uses standard or custom protocols?

The GPL tries to clarify the situation by making distinctions between "aggregation" of independent works on the same distribution medium (which is OK to be incompatibly licensed) and works that are combined to "form a larger program" (which must be compatibly licensed, aside from system libraries). Over the years the FSF has published their interpretation of the GPL stating that static and dynamic linking constitutes a derived work, and such is codified (at least, as an example) in the GPLv3. But even here, "linking" is only clear in the context of classical compiled userspace applications. Shared memory? IPC? Network services? Kernel space?

At the end of the day, technical measures to establish interfaces between two pieces of interacting code may be used as a defense that the works are independent, should one end up in a lawsuit over distribution of GPL software, but the techincal measures are just part of the story. Most users of GPL software would prefer to operate in a sufficiently defensible position that they're unlikely to be sued in the first place. Other users don't give a gently caress, and ride on the fact that enforcement of the GPL for certain software (e.g., Linux) has traditionally been non-existent.

TheresaJayne posted:

If it is a GPL library wouldnt that actually be under the LGPL licence meaning you can make derivative works which are not GPL themselves just they cannot change the library itself.without making the changed library available under LGPL

No, the LGPL is a distinct license from the GPL. A library may be licensed under either at the author's (really, Copyright holder's) discretion. Historically there's been quite a few libraries released specifically under the GPL to "encourage" applications using the library to be GPL licensed as well. GNU Readline is a pretty well known example.

ExcessBLarg! fucked around with this message at 16:46 on Sep 29, 2016

# ? Sep 29, 2016 16:38

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# ? May 16, 2024 23:32

feedmegin: Jul 30, 2008

xtal posted:

I'm not going to deny this but I can't even think of the last time I saw LGPL or AGPL in the wild, library, app or otherwise

Qt, for one (plus other licenses).

# ? Sep 29, 2016 16:38

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Serious Hardware/Software Crap > The Cavern of COBOL > Coding Horrors: You can gather all your technical debt into one easy framework!

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