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GIven how she's phrasing things I get the impression that Max was a formerly active hero himself to some capacity. Maybe he became disillusioned by super hero work and walked away from it like Allison did.
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Sep 20, 2016 15:25
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I'm hoping he's one of those uber powerful supers that the government tracked down and murdered, except they missed him somehow.
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Sep 20, 2016 15:26
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Flesh Forge posted:I'm hoping he's one of those uber powerful supers that the government tracked down and murdered, except they missed him somehow. You know, it would actually sort of make sense that Max's parents were rich enough to have their son not get murdered in exchange for him promising never to use whatever powers he has.
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Sep 20, 2016 15:45
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Ashcans posted:I agree. Sometimes you can jump into the middle of a narrative/scene and use it as a good way to engage readers curiosity, but you have to do it well otherwise it just makes it confusing to try and parse what is happening. If I was reading this like a standard comic, 25 pages or so at a time, I don't think I would mind the delayed reveal. But this is one of the many problems you get when you do print-style comics rather than web-style pacing. I'm trying to imagine how rough it would be even reading something universally acclaimed like Watchmen or Saga if it was one page every four days. That said, I'm guessing this guy's got some kind of Feral-parallel thing going on where he has an incredible power but it would come at a personal cost. Maybe he can poop rare earth metals but its super painful so he doesn't want to do it.
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Sep 20, 2016 18:02
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That's pretty mined out though, wouldn't it be more interesting if it was more like "I have vast world-changing powers that I could use for good, but I'm a selfish shithead so no"
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Sep 20, 2016 18:12
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In exchange for not killing him as a child, his parents promised to raise him as an objectivist shithead who would never consider using his powers for others.
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Sep 20, 2016 18:13
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"Do what I say or I'll snap your neck and dump your lifeless body in the middle of the Atlantic." Maybe I'm a bitch, maybe I'm just particularly grumpy tonight, but I have zero patience for this objectivist bullshit. Granted, things may change on this regard as more information is revealed, but apparently this guy has the power to do something that would be very positive for dozens, if not hundreds, of people, without any significant drawbacks (or else Allison wouldn't be asking him, given her character), and his first objection is "I don't feel like doing it / I don't want to do what other people tell me to". The immoral choice would be to not force him to do whatever it is that he can do.
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Sep 20, 2016 19:04
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I think there's a very valid quesiton of "if you have powers should you have to use them for other people". I hate that this character is our examination of this question but it's still valid. If you woke up with super strength and flight should you have to don a cape and cowl or volunteer as a rescue worker? Or is just leading your life like normal a valid alternative. I remind you that as far as this comic is concerned, America is the only country that had active super heroes and most other countries expect you to be like every other citizen despite your powers. The fashion designer that can teleport could be saving lives daily but instead uses his power to save money on air fare and I don't find anything objectionable to that.
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Sep 20, 2016 19:28
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I want to give the author some credit as to why he set Max up to be such a ludicrous shitbird and am looking forward to seeing where this goes.
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Sep 20, 2016 19:37
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Brought To You By posted:If you woke up with super strength and flight should you have to don a cape and cowl or volunteer as a rescue worker? Yes, no buts or ifs about it. Not don a cape and cowl, but be a rescue worker. It gives you a greatly increased chance of being somewhere at the exact time your power is needed to help someone in need (like, for example, propping up a collapsing building to allow it to be evacuated in time). Of course, this (like my previous post) assumes there are no significant drawbacks to the superpower. It's a different matter altogether if the power is something like "super strength, but you break every bone in your body if you use it".
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Sep 20, 2016 19:51
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Mikl posted:Yes, no buts or ifs about it. So if you're really good at math, you have to pursue a career that uses that well even if you don't want to? "I won't use my gifts to help and I won't even explain myself because I don't know anything to anyone" is obviously stupid and reprehensible. I'm not sure "everyone must use their gifts and talents to benefit society no matter what" is particularly better.
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Sep 20, 2016 20:30
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See, isn't that more interesting and provocative than "Oh dear I must sacrifice myself for the good of the many *presses back of hand against forehead*"
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Sep 20, 2016 20:42
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Flesh Forge posted:See, isn't that more interesting and provocative than "Oh dear I must sacrifice myself for the good of the many *presses back of hand against forehead*" Feral's sacrifice is so astonishing in part because it's in no way obligatory. It's so far beyond what is expected of her.
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Sep 20, 2016 20:44
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RiotGearEpsilon posted:Feral's sacrifice is so astonishing in part because it's in no way obligatory. It's so far beyond what is expected of her. I agree and I'm not crapping on it at all, just it's already covered, I think it would be a good exploration to see what happens in the other direction. e: I think Feral's commitment to "What if Wolverine actually did something tangibly good for the world instead of just stab people" is one of the coolest things the comic has ever done, don't get me wrong 
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Sep 20, 2016 20:50
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Mikl posted:Yes, no buts or ifs about it. Not don a cape and cowl, but be a rescue worker. It gives you a greatly increased chance of being somewhere at the exact time your power is needed to help someone in need (like, for example, propping up a collapsing building to allow it to be evacuated in time). To what extend? i mean, if you are impervious to harm sure. but if you had some power which might help a lot of people while putting you in intense danger, would it really be expected to use them. Is saving 2 strangers worth a fifty percent chance of death? A lot of real life heroes would answer yes, but I can't really blame anyone who wants to preserve themselves. Weirdly enough, the last panel made me somewhat agree with Max. "I know lots of people who tried to help. A lot of them lost. Some died. Why wont you do that?" Allison is the worst at arguing.
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Sep 20, 2016 21:04
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Flesh Forge posted:e: I think Feral's commitment to "What if Wolverine actually did something tangibly good for the world instead of just stab people" is one of the coolest things the comic has ever done, don't get me wrong The problem is that it's SO cool that everything else the comic has done since has looked lame in comparison!
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Sep 20, 2016 21:16
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Wittgen posted:So if you're really good at math, you have to pursue a career that uses that well even if you don't want to? That example doesn't really fit, since I'm hard pressed to think of a scenario where you, the best mathematician in the world, can do something to benefit others that other people pooling their resources can't, whereas that's the case for the "superman propping up a collapsing building" scenario. It's something unique that only you, right there and right then, can do. Air is lava! posted:To what extend? i mean, if you are impervious to harm sure. but if you had some power which might help a lot of people while putting you in intense danger, would it really be expected to use them. Is saving 2 strangers worth a fifty percent chance of death? A lot of real life heroes would answer yes, but I can't really blame anyone who wants to preserve themselves. Hence "assuming there are no significant drawbacks" in my post. You can't ask someone to throw themselves into danger, but if they don't do something that benefits others and doesn't pose a danger to themselves, as it seems is the situation here with Max, they're terrible people.
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Sep 20, 2016 22:00
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"What if Superman was a terrible person" is an interesting idea though I mean Zack Snyder tried to do this but the outcome sucked real hard
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Sep 20, 2016 22:04
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Mikl posted:That example doesn't really fit, since I'm hard pressed to think of a scenario where you, the best mathematician in the world, can do something to benefit others that other people pooling their resources can't, whereas that's the case for the "superman propping up a collapsing building" scenario. It's something unique that only you, right there and right then, can do. Okay. Another example, your parents are world class surgeons and from early childhood you are groomed for that job as well. You have amazing mental aptitude and are so dexterous that it's almost scary. You know that you can save countless people with your job but you never felt any passion all. It was always the dream of your parents, you hate being in charge of someones life, seeing blood makes you feel uneasy and you have an acute fear of dead bodies. Even though you are way worse at it, all you ever wanted to do was to be a janitor and take a step back from all this responsibility. Every day you are the only one who is capable of saving people in dire need, but it's wearing you down and you start to be incredibly depressed. Is it morally wrong to quit a job like this, if it makes you feel miserable? Self preservation isn't just keeping yourself away from acute bodily harm. Wrecking ones psyche can be almost as bad. cant cook creole bream fucked around with this message at 22:26 on Sep 20, 2016 |
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Sep 20, 2016 22:17
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Who gets to decide what a significant drawback is What if it takes a day of your remaining life every time you prop up a building, is that significant or not
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Sep 20, 2016 22:18
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It's like we're all students in a poorly written philosophy class.
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Sep 20, 2016 22:23
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This guy is an rear end in a top hat but he's not exactly wrong
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Sep 20, 2016 22:24
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Air is lava! posted:Okay. Another example, your parents are world class surgeons and from early childhood you are groomed for that job as well. You have amazing mental aptitude and are so dexterous that it's almost scary. You know that you can safe countless people with your job but you never felt any passion all. It was always the dream of your parents, you hate being in charge of someones life, seeing blood makes you feel uneasy and you have an acute fear of dead bodies. Even though you are way worse at it, all you ever wanted to do was to be a janitor and take a step back from all this responsibility. Every day you are the only one who is capable of saving people in dire need, but it's wearing you down and you start to be incredibly depressed. No, because you're not the only surgeon in the entire world: there are others who can do that job. What would be morally wrong is if there were a situation where only you can save a patient with an operation since there's no time for another surgeon to come over, and still you refuse. Like for example: you're a janitor in a hospital and you're riding an elevator with a patient in critical condition on their way to the OR and a novice nurse who doesn't know how to do anything, and there's a blackout so the elevator stops and you have to operate right there right then or the patient will die. You don't have a right to refuse then. AnonSpore posted:Who gets to decide what a significant drawback is You get to decide on your own conscience, since you're the one who has to take the risk and live with the consequence of your action (or inaction). Is taking a day off your life worth the life of a person? Two people? Three? What if you eventually die because you propped up a building too many, and the very next day there's a huge disaster that claims thousands of lives and you could have prevented if only you were alive? Who knows! My original point was that doing nothing to help people when you risk nothing is immoral. (As seems to be the case right now in the comic, though it might change as more information comes to light.)
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Sep 20, 2016 22:30
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Woebin posted:It's like we're all students in a poorly written philosophy class. That sums up life pretty well.
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Sep 20, 2016 22:31
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Mikl posted:Like for example: you're a janitor in a hospital and you're riding an elevator with a patient in critical condition on their way to the OR and a novice nurse who doesn't know how to do anything, and there's a blackout so the elevator stops and you have to operate right there right then or the patient will die. You don't have a right to refuse then. But what if the patient is Hitler, what then e: or like, the lead singer for Nickelback
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Sep 20, 2016 22:38
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Air is lava! posted:Okay. Another example, your parents are world class surgeons and from early childhood you are groomed for that job as well. You have amazing mental aptitude and are so dexterous that it's almost scary. You know that you can save countless people with your job but you never felt any passion all. It was always the dream of your parents, you hate being in charge of someones life, seeing blood makes you feel uneasy and you have an acute fear of dead bodies. Even though you are way worse at it, all you ever wanted to do was to be a janitor and take a step back from all this responsibility. Every day you are the only one who is capable of saving people in dire need, but it's wearing you down and you start to be incredibly depressed. Isn't this Kumar's arc in the first Harold and Kumar movie?
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Sep 20, 2016 23:07
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What if you could save lives with your super power but every time you use it it gives you real bad gas, like with cramping and real loud burbling spoopy sounds, what then
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Sep 20, 2016 23:16
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It would be immoral to use your powers since there are international treaties specifically banning the use of chemical weapons.
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Sep 20, 2016 23:28
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Brought To You By posted:If you woke up with super strength and flight should you have to don a cape and cowl or volunteer as a rescue worker? I'd buy a GoPro and become a youtube celebrity by recording kickass parkour runs.
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Sep 20, 2016 23:40
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RiotGearEpsilon posted:This guy is an rear end in a top hat but he's not exactly wrong I think a lot of his character makes more sense in light of this revelation. Dude's probably had people find out about his power before and pretty much insist--as Allison is doing--that he should be giving his all to do that. When you've got a bunch of people telling you that you *should* be using your life on this one thing, it's pretty understandable that you're going to get incredibly sick of people telling you what to do. Mikl posted:Like for example: you're a janitor in a hospital and you're riding an elevator with a patient in critical condition on their way to the OR and a novice nurse who doesn't know how to do anything, and there's a blackout so the elevator stops and you have to operate right there right then or the patient will die. You don't have a right to refuse then. Except Max (presumably) isn't being asked to wave a magic wand one time and suddenly this one aspect of the world is all better--whatever he'd be doing would almost certainly be a lifelong, day-in day-out commitment, for something he presumably doesn't enjoy. And once he makes that leap, he basically can't go back on it without everyone hating him forever. He's not maximizing his good in the world, and sure, it's selfish. But that's a choice he has the right to make.
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Sep 20, 2016 23:55
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Cat Mattress posted:I'd buy a GoPro and become a youtube celebrity by recording kickass parkour runs. gently caress yeah   The Lord of Hats posted:I think a lot of his character makes more sense in light of this revelation. Dude's probably had people find out about his power before and pretty much insist--as Allison is doing--that he should be giving his all to do that. When you've got a bunch of people telling you that you *should* be using your life on this one thing, it's pretty understandable that you're going to get incredibly sick of people telling you what to do. That's a good point, I forgot about how weirdly mad he got with his "How about you don't ever tell me what to do!!" moment.
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Sep 21, 2016 00:03
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Mikl posted:"Do what I say or I'll snap your neck and dump your lifeless body in the middle of the Atlantic."  I think this is finally trying to tie poo poo together with that. It may be immoral for Max to not be using his power (although we don't know what effects using his power could have on him, any side effects Allison might not be thinking about, or really anything since we don't know what the power even is yet), but Allison can't just force people to do the right thing.
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Sep 21, 2016 02:25
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Maybe Max's power is that he can.
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Sep 21, 2016 03:02
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Flesh Forge posted:Maybe Max's power is that he can. Oh snap
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Sep 21, 2016 03:44
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Flesh Forge posted:Maybe Max's power is that he can. Okay, you just set me up for disappointment, because I kind of want it to be exactly that. Really, though, the question of 'If you can, should you? Should it be EXPECTED from you?' is the most interesting this comic has gotten in a long time.
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Sep 21, 2016 04:08
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Mikl posted:Yes, no buts or ifs about it. Not don a cape and cowl, but be a rescue worker. It gives you a greatly increased chance of being somewhere at the exact time your power is needed to help someone in need (like, for example, propping up a collapsing building to allow it to be evacuated in time). See this is the part I disagree with. There shouldn't be a social mandate or obligation to use your powers if you don't want too. You should be free to just be a math teacher or office worker if you want too. If Max is coming from the position of a biodynamic who never used his powers for any heroics then I don't necessarily blame him for not doing so; people treat people with powers as either someone who needs to solve their problems or nuisances. (he's still a douche bag though) For one thing; even though you might stop at having someone be a rescue worker, that's not how it will pan out and we see in this world how that train of thought continues. Once you're done fighting other super powered people in your country, you will then be asked to fight other super powered people in another country. Or maybe the government will ask you to work alongside one of their agencies to bolster their forces. That is if your power is uesful for that kind of thing, otherwise you're someone else's problem. When do you think it will be ok for someone to reject this obligation to use their powers for good? When can they retire from service? Another problem is that this is the exact reason Allison stopped being a hero and part of her current problem. People fixate on the "super" part of hero and expect you to be able to solve their problems. But Allison is one person and even if she could hold up one burning building a night there are still thousands of burning building around the world she cannot help. The current setting is a world where all the people who could have helped every burning building got killed. But she's convinced herself that she has to be able to hold up every single one and it's warped her ability to approach practical problem solving. Her current organization shows this problem by exclusively relying on "supers" instead of "people that can include supers". Why does her group need just biodynamic members to offer protection? Aren't there already escort (not the sexy kind) and "safe ride" services already in existence. A relative of mine went to a University that offered a service where you could call in for a ride and a marked car would show up to take you back to the campus. Why not just fund that but for a city instead of a university? Why should powers dictate how you approach problems in life or how to solve them? And why does there need to be a drawback to their power for them to reject performing a social service with it? If I had super speed from a young age; at most I see myself signing up for a courier service in highschool/college to make some spare income and maybe using it instead of a car when the weather is permitting. Is there a reason I should be a rescue worker instead of working in IT? All this is to say It just seems wrong to try and demand that an individual give up their life goals and freedom because they played the genetic lottery and got super powers. I agree with the british guy in that if you have powers, you should just be expected to be a law abiding citizen like everyone else. If you want to volunteer for service of any kind that's your prerogative. Edit: Once again I hate the fact that we have an interesting setup for a dilemma that's hampered because one of the people involved is presented in the worst possible way. Whatever happens I would have preferred that Max just be some rich kid rather than the kind of person who regards immigrants as "the help". Brought To You By fucked around with this message at 04:47 on Sep 21, 2016 |
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Sep 21, 2016 04:36
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Unlucky7 posted:Really, though, the question of 'If you can, should you? Should it be EXPECTED from you?' is the most interesting this comic has gotten in a long time. Sadly, though, the discussion here on that topic is being done in a far better manner than the comic is. Also, I think this would have been stronger coming right after Feral, instead of having a huge digression into why vigilante killing is bad (or is it?). Not to mention telling us what the actual power is. It occurs to me. She rips up the check from the guy who she doesn't like right now instead of funding her program that could help lots of people; but she's perfectly cool with using the information provided by that very same guy to get into an argument with someone over how he should help people even if he doesn't like it. That feels very inconsistent to me.
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Sep 21, 2016 04:52
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Whether or not Randian Superboy has a superpower or not, this whole segment is being written so poorly that I really don't give a poo poo what superpower he has. He's acting like a petulant child and/or an internet libertarian moron, and Alison is acting like an idiot who doesn't understand that word choice matters. Don't just say "YOU HAVE TO!", try to discuss it like a reasonable fuckin' person. And don't just screech "NOBODY TELLS ME WHAT TO DO, I AM A SOVEREIGN CITIZEN", actually argue your loving point like an adult. This strawman cardboard cutout bullshit has to stop.
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Sep 21, 2016 05:00
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Flesh Forge posted:Maybe Max's power is that he can. At the level of abstractness we're operating at here, it might as well be. We're missing so much information (what Alison saw, what information Alison requested/got from her doctor, what Alison is even asking him to do) that this is just an perfectly spherical ethical argument in a frictionless vacuum. Normally I would say "this is just the effect of reading it serially" because temporarily withholding information the characters know can be a useful way to build suspense or whatever, but the amount of arbitrariness and obfuscation that's gone into constructing this situation makes me think this is actually the intended effect. (Seriously, this scene started with ellipses. It's like the narrative itself got up to go to the bathroom while the plot was being explained.)
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Sep 21, 2016 05:00
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Flesh Forge posted:Maybe Max's power is that he can.
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Sep 21, 2016 06:46
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