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Russia up to some tricks as usual. When Putin visited Finland about a month ago he brought up the case of flying without transponders, and invited it's neighbors to talks over the issue of flying without transponders. From what the propaganda posters say and a few bits from Sputnik I gather that they say "BUT NATO DOES IT TOO". Fortunately Estonia declined, citing freezing of civil and military relations between NATO and Russia since 2014 and that bilateral talks regarding international problems are only means to drive a wedge between unity of NATO and EU. I've no difficulty imagining how their media will be all over this, saying how Russia wants only stability but those damned nato pigdogs do not.
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Sep 21, 2016 12:55
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| # ? May 10, 2024 12:59 |
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http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/disputed-bosnian-serb-referendum-divides-russia-and-serbia-09-19-2016 So, in 4 days there is going to be a referendum in Republika Srpska about them declaring independence from The Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina. If this happens, Dayton peace accords will be effectively broken, and would almost certainly bring the renewal of violence in that country. Putin, being a protector of downtrodden nationalities everywhere, naturally supports it, while everybody else including Serbian PM Vučić is against it. Let's hope it all ends in a wet fart because 90's nostalgia is never a good thing. 
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Sep 21, 2016 14:10
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Is there an estimate of support for independence? I guess preliminary polling numbers would be difficult to get for a referendum that is technically illegal.
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Sep 21, 2016 14:14
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I sincerely hope this does not happen.
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Sep 21, 2016 14:20
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Sorry, I hosed up. This referendum is about Bosnian Serb National Day (January 9. - the day Republika Srpska was proclaimed) that was made unconstitutional by BiH Supreme Court last year, not for independence. I think that one is scheduled next year.
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Sep 21, 2016 14:25
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Swedish armed forces have been at full  mode since last week. Swedish military has been having some training operations on the island of Gotland and while the full picture is still very hush hush, reportedly they have met mysterious Russians there first pretending to be tourists casually asking for directions, but then continuing to ask more specific questions like what unit they belonged to. What's interesting in this report is that they mention that the Russians moved around in car/cars with Russian license plates, so these are not exactly top secret super spies. Likewise there have allegedly been Russians snooping around in northern Sweden. During one international exercise last year one officer was approached in a pub, shown a photo of his family and presented a barrage of questions. As a result of all this Sweden has now decided to make the unit of 150 soldiers on Gotland permanent immediately instead of 2018, and Swedish commander has been openly saying that Russians are threatening Sweden's security (without telling how) while Russia ofc disapproves such false insinuations.The last time Swedish military was panicking because of Russia was in 2014 when they were looking for a minisub in front of Stockholm, but no conclusive evidence was ever presented to the public of a foreign (Russian) presence. These current reports are much easier to take at face value. Is Russia updating her gameplan for a war in the Baltic? In the case of a Russia-NATO conflict Gotland would be vital for Swedish neutrality as well as for both Russian reinforcements to Kaliningrad and NATO reinforcements to the Baltic states. But intel tactics this brazen seem so out of touch, it's as if Russians were trying to intimidate Sweden rather than just gathering intel.
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Sep 21, 2016 15:24
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That does fit the Russian MO. They like to test their neighbours reactions to provocations. Doubtless the blatancy was intentional.
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Sep 21, 2016 15:29
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What would happen if they were independent? Serbia 2?
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Sep 21, 2016 16:27
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Kurtofan posted:What would happen if they were independent? Serbia 2? Republika Srpska would make Serbia 1 look like a shining beacon of stability and good governance.
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Sep 21, 2016 16:55
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Nenonen posted:Swedish armed forces have been at full
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Sep 21, 2016 17:07
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Disco Infiva posted:http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/disputed-bosnian-serb-referendum-divides-russia-and-serbia-09-19-2016 How can you look at that map and say "yes, this would make sense as an independent country".
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Sep 21, 2016 17:10
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Huh, I know ashamedly little about the Balkans and I guess I'm pretty surprised about Russia being for something that Serbia, or at least Serbia's PM is against.
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Sep 21, 2016 17:22
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Cat Mattress posted:How can you look at that map and say "yes, this would make sense as an independent country". Racism.
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Sep 21, 2016 17:33
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Would it be conceivable that if the Republika Srbska became independent that it might join Serbia? I don't know enough about the politics of that region to know if that's plausible or even something anyone wants.
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Sep 21, 2016 17:40
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Time for Sweden and Finland to join NATO. Whoa, some hardcore Russophobic warmongering going on here. UN mods?
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Sep 21, 2016 17:53
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Jygallax posted:Would it be conceivable that if the Republika Srbska became independent that it might join Serbia? I don't know enough about the politics of that region to know if that's plausible or even something anyone wants. 
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Sep 21, 2016 17:59
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OK so it goes like this: January 9. 1992. Bosnian Serbs declared the formation of Serbian Republic of BiH, with the intent of trying to halt the independence of Bosnia from Yugoslavia. War starts several weeks later and ends in 1995. with Dayton Peace Accords that essentially splits the country in two entities (Bosniak-Croat dominated Federation of BiH and Serbian dominated Republika Srpska) and one special district of Brčko. January 9. is celebrated in Republika Srpska as "Republics Day", but last year Bosnian Constitutional Court declared that January 9. celebration is unconstitutional. Every major decision in BiH needs to be brought by all 3 constituent nation's delegates, and constitutional court found that also includes national holidays. The referendum on Sunday will have the following question: "Do you support that January 9. is being celebrated as the Day of Serb Republic?" If it passes and is implemented it will have major repercussions since both entities are under same constitution as defined in Dayton Peace Accords, and not abiding under courts decision will be seen as an attempt for secession. Sefer Halilović (general in Army of BiH) recently stated that if this referendum passes, Republika Srpska will cease to exist. He also gave 10 to 15 days until RS's total surrender, which naturally infuriated Serbian politicians. Some links in moon languages (all three of them so it's constitutional) http://www.novilist.hr/Vijesti/Hrva...ta_refresh=true http://www.b92.net/info/vesti/index.php?yyyy=2016&mm=09&dd=20&nav_category=167&nav_id=1178741 http://balkans.aljazeera.net/vijesti/referendum-o-danu-rs-25-septembra Discendo Vox posted:Racism. What?
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Sep 21, 2016 18:24
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Jygallax posted:Would it be conceivable that if the Republika Srbska became independent that it might join Serbia? I don't know enough about the politics of that region to know if that's plausible or even something anyone wants. Serbia itself doesn~t want that.
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Sep 21, 2016 18:27
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Fabulous Knight posted:Huh, I know ashamedly little about the Balkans and I guess I'm pretty surprised about Russia being for something that Serbia, or at least Serbia's PM is against. Serbia has been moving toward West for some time now and are less and less accommodating to Russian interests in the region, so they have to look elsewhere.
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Sep 21, 2016 18:34
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Nenonen posted:Swedish armed forces have been at full So wait, help me out here. If Russia's big fear is encirclement by NATO, why would it try to antagonize a country that's being courted by NATO and that has been playing nicer with NATO in recent years, and already feels really defensive towards Russia? That seems...counterproductive.
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Sep 21, 2016 18:57
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Pussy Cartel posted:So wait, help me out here. If Russia's big fear is encirclement by NATO, why would it try to antagonize a country that's being courted by NATO and that has been playing nicer with NATO in recent years, and already feels really defensive towards Russia? That seems...counterproductive.
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Sep 21, 2016 19:02
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Nenonen posted:As a result of all this Sweden has now decided to make the unit of 150 soldiers on Gotland permanent immediately instead of 2018, and Swedish commander has been openly saying that Russians are threatening Sweden's security (without telling how) while Russia ofc disapproves such false insinuations.  edit: Looks like there is a Home Guard battalion usually stationed on Gotland too.
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Sep 21, 2016 19:36
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Ghost of Mussolini posted:Republika Srpska would make Serbia 1 look like a shining beacon of stability and good governance. While I don't support RS' independence, this might have positive consequences. Bosnia is a poor country in such a bureaucratic mess that it's barely functional. The Dayton peace agreements were supposed to be a temporary solution and they became a permanent one. There are layers upon layers of complicated governing bodies that keep the country paralyzed and they are of course in no rush to disassemble themselves. Maybe this will shake things up a bit and result in something positive in the end (yeah I'm probably too optimistic).
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Sep 21, 2016 19:49
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Disco Infiva posted:
The roots of the conflict are ethnic/racial. They continue to motivate parties to the conflict, including the viability of separatism.
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Sep 21, 2016 20:21
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A Buttery Pastry posted:The trick is that they're going to attack before Sweden joins NATO. Unfortunately, Sweden is already in the EU, which makes it a de facto NATO member in a roundabout way. http://eur-lex.europa.eu/summary/glossary/mutual_defence.html Since there are several EU countries in NATO, anyone of them could see fit to put "summon the rest of their NATO buddies" as being one of the means in their power to aid and assist.
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Sep 21, 2016 20:23
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Discendo Vox posted:The roots of the conflict are ethnic/racial. They continue to motivate parties to the conflict, including the viability of separatism. It's bog standard nationalism.
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Sep 21, 2016 20:28
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steinrokkan posted:It's bog standard nationalism. That's a form of racism. Radovan wasn't convicted of national cleansing. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 20:36 on Sep 21, 2016 |
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Sep 21, 2016 20:33
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Discendo Vox posted:That's a form of racism. Radovan wasn't convicted of national cleansing. No, he was convicted of ethnic cleansing, not racial cleansing. We are all the same race. steinrokkan posted:It's bog standard nationalism.
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Sep 21, 2016 20:42
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Ethnicity is at root a form of race- a social construct, used for the purpose of division, built in this case and in many others partially, but incompletely, along lines of lineage and geography. "ethnic nationalism" is racism.
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Sep 21, 2016 20:57
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Doctor Malaver posted:While I don't support RS' independence, this might have positive consequences. Bosnia is a poor country in such a bureaucratic mess that it's barely functional. The Dayton peace agreements were supposed to be a temporary solution and they became a permanent one. There are layers upon layers of complicated governing bodies that keep the country paralyzed and they are of course in no rush to disassemble themselves. Bosnia seems like the Eastern European Belgium.
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Sep 21, 2016 20:58
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Pussy Cartel posted:So wait, help me out here. If Russia's big fear is encirclement by NATO, why would it try to antagonize a country that's being courted by NATO and that has been playing nicer with NATO in recent years, and already feels really defensive towards Russia? That seems...counterproductive. NATO expansion is mostly a propaganda tool for Russia. Putin dgaf if Sweden joins NATO, he's not stupid enough to actually want to invade it and as has been mentioned it's effectively part of NATO already. However, Sweden joining NATO helps Putin justify (both to the Russian people and abroad) Russian involvement in Ukraine and other "frozen conflict" areas. More nations joining NATO might not be a bad thing for Putin, either. I think his long-term plan is to encourage disunity and conflict between NATO members, such as his supporting Trump who has been basically anti-NATO, making statements about how member nations need to contribute their fair share and not just rely on the US military. More member nations, more bickering about who is/isn't pulling their weight, hopefully Putin can erode American political will to support NATO, it fragments, then he gets his opportunity to invade the Baltics.
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Sep 21, 2016 20:58
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A Buttery Pastry posted:The trick is that they're going to attack before Sweden joins NATO. would they though? Sweden is part of the EU and invading them on bullshit fake stuff, seems like it would lead to a real war. Ukraine is one thing, but sweden. Pellisworth posted:NATO expansion is mostly a propaganda tool for Russia. Putin dgaf if Sweden joins NATO, he's not stupid enough to actually want to invade it and as has been mentioned it's effectively part of NATO already. However, Sweden joining NATO helps Putin justify (both to the Russian people and abroad) Russian involvement in Ukraine and other "frozen conflict" areas. that would explain alot. i know he gives alot of money/support to the various hard right parties (and is probably helping trump directly with the hacks).
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Sep 21, 2016 21:02
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Discendo Vox posted:Ethnicity is at root a form of race- a social construct, used for the purpose of division, built in this case and in many others partially, but incompletely, along lines of lineage and geography. "ethnic nationalism" is racism.
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Sep 21, 2016 21:02
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Dapper_Swindler posted:that would explain alot. i know he gives alot of money/support to the various hard right parties (and is probably helping trump directly with the hacks). Yeah that's a good point too, I'm not super familiar with European politics but I'd assume the various right wing / nationalist parties that Russia sponsors across Europe are also skeptical on the EU and NATO? I think Russia's sabre-rattling and aggressiveness is intentional, it's meant to scare Russia's neighbors while Putin supports parties in the US and EU which say "why should we be supporting all those poor Eastern European nations economically and militarily, what have they every done for us, we'd be better on our own! Brexit!"
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Sep 21, 2016 21:08
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cinci zoo sniper posted:Okay then white people are racist against white people, gotcha. Yes! Whiteness is super loving arbitrary. Here in the United States Italians weren't white, until they were.
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Sep 21, 2016 21:19
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StandardVC10 posted:Yes! Whiteness is super loving arbitrary. Here in the United States Italians weren't white, until they were. In Europe they still aren't!
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Sep 21, 2016 21:24
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Cake Smashing Boob posted:In Europe they still aren't! Only the southern ones though.
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Sep 21, 2016 21:25
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Kurtofan posted:Bosnia seems like the Eastern European Belgium. Its really not that bad
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Sep 21, 2016 21:27
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Pellisworth posted:Yeah that's a good point too, I'm not super familiar with European politics but I'd assume the various right wing / nationalist parties that Russia sponsors across Europe are also skeptical on the EU and NATO? They're pretty much all isolationists with authoritarian tendencies, yeah. Put up border walls/fences, down with foreigners, down with everything supranational, down with EU and US influence, they're not our dads! Putin is their idol because he sticks it to the man, runs his country like they'd ideally want to run theirs, and they share the goal of weakening the EU, NATO and the US.
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Sep 21, 2016 21:30
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| # ? May 10, 2024 12:59 |
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Vintage  70s racism story from my dad (not the poster):Libyan exchange student in Zagreb being beaten and forced to climb a tree and beg for bananas. 
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Sep 21, 2016 21:30
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