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icantfindaname posted:so what's the deal with argentina, why has their modern history been so totally dominated by hilariously awful peronists? like i can understand other countries in latin america having bad populist management as a result of being insanely unequal societies, but argentina is all germans and italian immigrants and presumably was a much less unequal society? it makes no sense Yo those immigrations happened like a billion years ago, nobody identifies as any of those things any more. Inequality is still there and is still a remnant of the colonial period, like in every Latin American country. Argentina has a big proportion of native-american descendants, and also a lot of recent immigration from countries like Bolivia and Paraguay where native-american population is also big. Due to historical and chronical reasons, those sectors of the population are also the poorest. There's your inequality.
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Sep 14, 2016 11:06
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icantfindaname posted:so what's the deal with argentina, why has their modern history been so totally dominated by hilariously awful peronists? like i can understand other countries in latin america having bad populist management when the black or native people rise up and seize power, but argentina is all germans and italians? it makes no sense You see, when an Argentinian is born they get a choice of two out of three qualities: Intelligence, honesty or peronism. Dias posted:Well, as of last week, meet the new Rio Grande do Sul Department of Public Safety (hah) Secretary, Mr. Cezar Schirmer himself! I'm not sure if these news made it to you guys already but hey. Beautiful.
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Sep 14, 2016 12:09
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icantfindaname posted:so what's the deal with argentina, why has their modern history been so totally dominated by hilariously awful peronists? like i can understand other countries in latin america having bad populist management as a result of being insanely unequal societies, but argentina is all germans and italian immigrants and presumably was a much less unequal society? it makes no sense The revised version is also pretty lame, if it helps. As a brazilian living in argentina, I am a bit awed at how much they are like Brazil...but MORE. It's as if at every juncture, they went further by one order of magnitude. Early Brazil owed it underwear to the british; Argentina actually had to fight them off. National integration in brazil was a mess; here they actually had a series of Game of Thrones wars between Buenos aires and Provinces to see who'd call the shots. Peronism had a bigger impact upon the national identity than Varguism had in Brazil, and it doesn't surprise me since anyone who managed to heard all the cats here has to be an ace. And likewise, they had a military dictatorship that was much harsher than ours. Partly because it had to be, Argentinians being naturally inclined to political outrage than other bipeds. The local resistance to the military was FAR more organized and effective than in Brazil. While we mostly robbed banks and sometimes kidnapped an ambassador to exchange for prisoners, they were cutting entire provinces off. And it went the same way with the neoliberal post-dictatorship period. Brazil sold some of its public crown jewels and indexed stuff to crap. Argentina pretty much dollarized its economy, sold its kidneys on the international market, and crashed way, WAY harder in 2000-2001.
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Sep 14, 2016 15:58
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ZearothK posted:You see, when an Argentinian is born they get a choice of two out of three qualities: Intelligence, honesty or peronism. Sephyr posted:Argentinians being naturally inclined to political outrage than other bipeds. This thread is on a roll.
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Sep 14, 2016 16:09
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Symbolic Butt posted:This thread is on a roll. The argentinean kid tells to his dad. -Papá, i want to be just like you. -Why, my son?, answers the proud argentinean dad -So I can have a son like myself!
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Sep 14, 2016 16:26
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Argentinian jumps from a waterfall that has the height of his ego Dies of starvation
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Sep 14, 2016 16:54
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icantfindaname posted:so what's the deal with argentina, why has their modern history been so totally dominated by hilariously awful peronists? like i can understand other countries in latin america having bad populist management as a result of being insanely unequal societies, but argentina is all germans and italian immigrants and presumably was a much less unequal society? it makes no sense If you want it in two sentences: The Peronist party represents the populist wing of anti-democratic, anti-republican views in Argentine politics; the oligarchic elite and traditionalist elements of the armed forces make up the conservative wing of this same line of thought. By being first-movers in terms of mass political mobilization, always establishing rent-seeking party strategies, and ensuring political appropriation of state elements, the Peronist party (and all its factions) have been able to insert themselves in every nook and cranny of Argentine social and government institutions. Here is a rambling explanation where I will try to describe the first Peronism to give an idea of what happened. In 1943 there is a coup d'état, Perón is at this time a mid-level officer, and is a reference point for quite a few other officers of equal or lower standing. Initially the secretary to the Minister of War (Ad. Farrell), he is then made chief of the Department for Labour. The syndicates are initially sympathetic to the coup government, because they were seen as having replaced an even more reactionary and conservative government. Perón loses no time in making connections and friends among the leadership of the union. Perón places high-ups of the unions in his department, and they start to have a symbiotic relationship, with Perón intervening in some industrial disputes. At the end of the year the department is upgraded to the Secretariat of Labour (still not Minister-level). In 1944, Admiral Farrell conducts a palace coup, makes himself president, and makes Perón Vice-President, and then a few months later also Minister of War, occupying all 3 posts at once. At this point, Perón is directly participating in union congresses and pushes through a rural workers reform (which was badly needed). In 1945 Argentina declares war on Nazi Germany and Japan in an effort to break the diplomatic isolation of the country, and the US sends Ambassador Braden as a gesture. Large sectors of the upper and middle classes, which respectfully formed the backbones of the previous conservative and liberal administrations begin to come together in opposition to the Farrell-Perón military regime, Braden openly supports them. The syndicates start to feel under threat, and both sides carry out mass demonstrations. Elements within the military start to feel that this is all a bit too much, so they attempt to remove Perón, arresting him. The syndicates mobilize in force, identifying as openly Peronist, and Perón is released and returns to Buenos Aires to address the massive crowds (17 October). In 1946 there are elections, and Perón wins 56% in a free and fair process. Perón immediately takes advantage of the very positive economic situation of Argentina and begins to create welfare institutions and to populate these new state institutions with Peronists. Counting with the support of the working class, the syndicate leadership, and a reasonable chunk of the military, Perón continuously pushes the boundaries of the state, but always ensuring to be adding political clients and entrenching his followers. In education, for example, they built new schools and universities, but at the same time reworked curriculums and ensured that teachers were Peronists. Media rights were expanded, and traditionally large newspapers were curtailed. However, opposition media was constrained and censored constantly, often being pressured into shutting down. Police forces were reworked and expanded, but filled with Peronists (to this day the Buenos Aires Police is basically a Peronist mafia organisation). The syndicates became a key weapon of the government, with the leadership firmly loyal and in many cases also state employees (please keep in mind that during all of this they would happily make deals with gigantic oligopoly companies if it was good for them). At the same time, the government was quick to detain communist or socialist politicians and syndicalists, forcing some into exile and murdering others. Unfortunately for Perón, the mismanagement of the economy, corruption, and a suddenly not-stellar economic context meant that the state started to have a constrained budget, and could not simply keep everyone complacent. Strikes begin to occur, antiperonists begin to get violent, and social discontent mounts. Nevertheless, Perón wins the next election in 1952, with the opposition (mainly the UCR) greatly harassed, and with the Peronists counting with the female vote, which had just been given suffrage. However, the social tension does not dissipate. Evita dies a few months afterwards, and is declared Spiritual Chief of the Nation. Perón basically doubles down, and deepens all efforts to expand through the state. Political fighting increases from both sides, big enterprises start backing away from the government. In 1954 the situation begins to become unsustainable, and Perón manages to get the church (who so far had backed him) to oppose him, by making too much of a cult out of Evita and by putting forward a law to legalize divorces. In 1955 everything comes to a boil and in June the Navy bombs the presidential palace and kills lots of civilians, In retaliation, the Peronists start burning down churches. Perón tries to calm things down (for once), but it is far too late. Even though he stops censoring opposition politicians and the discourse does not calm down. Perón, as many times before, decided to go for double-or-nothing and basically makes a speech declaring open season on political opponents. Street fighting continues and the country becomes incredibly tense and polarized. In September the conservative elements in the military strike and coup Perón, who promptly escapes to various other Latin American dictatorships before finding a safe haven with Franco. So that was a complete shitshow right? Imagine three more Peronist governments, covering the periods 1973-76; 1989-1999; and 2001-2015.
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Sep 14, 2016 18:31
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Re: best parties in Brazil. I think it is impossible to answer this question because inevitably you end up comparing parties that have never had to govern anything (e.g., PSOL) with ones that have had to make the necessary alliances. Brazilian politics is dominated by ideology-free rent seeking parties like PMDB, PP, PSD, etc. Whoever is in power will necessarily have to deal with those, or be impeached in the process (main reason behind Dilma's impeachment was that she tried to create an alternative to PMDB). I used to really like PSDB. Then they got into power and the form their alliances took shape was by implementing a regressive, privatizing agenda that frequently used violence to deal with social movements. PT came along and offered another dirty bargain, but one that at least saw real gains for the lower classes. PT struck a bargain with big national business who didn't care that PT was spending money on the poor and on infrastructure as long as they could skim off the top. Of course, once the economy stopped growing as it had, big business cut off its ties to PT because PMDB could keep the gravy train rolling. Maybe PSOL would strike a different bargain in power, but I don't think that is likely.
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Sep 14, 2016 19:29
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Speaking of PT: http://www.reuters.com/article/us-brazil-corruption-idUSKCN11K2C6 So is this the year we see Dilma and Cunha out and Lula in cuffs or what? Who's next, Renan?
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Sep 14, 2016 21:46
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Welp, so who's running in 18? (Probably no one if things get hotter and the coup becomes a legit one)
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Sep 14, 2016 22:09
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Symbolic Butt posted:This thread is on a roll. I didn't mean that in a bad way, mind. I actually appreciate how quick Argentinians are to drop the grumbling and get out to demand poo poo. It's way more tolerable then the brazilian "Eh I don't give a poo poo, O WAIT PROTESTING IS TRENDY NOW I CARE SO MUCH, meh it all went to poo poo back to mumbling" two-step. I particularly like that the dictatorship basically threw up its hands to let Peron come back from exile in hopes that someone, anyone, even the one guy that they spent decades vilifying, can cut the gordian knot that is argentine politics. Also, labeling the 1989-2000 government 'peronist' is a bit like calling current Republicans the Party of Lincoln regarding present race relations. It papers over a whooole lot of history.
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Sep 14, 2016 22:20
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Sephyr posted:Also, labeling the 1989-2000 government 'peronist' is a bit like calling current Republicans the Party of Lincoln regarding present race relations. It papers over a whooole lot of history. They are all Peronists right to the point it goes to poo poo. Then people leave the disgraced president/governor/whatever and say it wasn't real Peronism and they support the real one, the one of Perón and Evita and the cycle starts over with a new leader. It's very similar to the "It wasn't real socialism" you see when a country goes to poo poo.
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Sep 14, 2016 22:29
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TheLovablePlutonis posted:Welp, so who's running in 18? (Probably no one if things get hotter and the coup becomes a legit one) Well, PMDB will probably go back underneath PSDB's wing - who'll put up Aécio or Alckmin again, probably Aécio. PT is a mess right now, they do have some options - Haddad comes to mind - but they're probably in a losing race regardless. If Lula comes out of this unscathed he's the obvious pick tho. Marina Silva will run again for Rede, Ciro Gomes will run for PDT...and in my book they might end up winning the race with things being what they are right now. Everyone relevant for PSOL is running for mayor these elections, so God knows what they'll do. Comedy option, Jean Wyllis. Those would be my predictions, and PT is most definitely the hardest one to figure out right now. I don't think Temer has the balls to go full-out coup, plus PMDB would rather not call much attention to themselves - they like their legislative and cabinet positions, the presidency is too...flashy. edit: oh, yeah, I got video of Lula being accused of being the leader of the Lava-Jato scheme right here, just in case you guys need more details on that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PSueHOY-Jk Dias fucked around with this message at 00:20 on Sep 15, 2016 |
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Sep 15, 2016 00:10
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Ugh, voting for Ciro as the 'least worst' is gonna be a bitter pill to swallow, the Ferreira Gomes clan hasn't really been that good for my state.
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Sep 15, 2016 00:23
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Dias posted:I don't think Temer has the balls to go full-out coup, plus PMDB would rather not call much attention to themselves - they like their legislative and cabinet positions, the presidency is too...flashy. where there's a will there's a way. http://www.conjur.com.br/2016-set-14/sp-possivel-precedente-inelegibilidade-temer
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Sep 15, 2016 00:26
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Ghost of Mussolini posted:Latin America is not better off than any other place when it comes to "fighting neoliberalism". Many of the governments that have portrayed themselves as anti-imperialist or however you want to define them have proved to be disastrous. Little more needs to be said about Venezuela. Bolivia and Ecuador have made good process in some areas, but one can't ignore all the other problems as well. We are talking about two governments who are loath to give up a single ounce of power, and who have happily dealt with big companies or dictatorial governments when it was convinient. In Uruguay the Mugica government was racked by mismanagement and policy incoherence. In Argentina, the Kirchners spoiled essentially the best decade in terms of international economic context for the country in exchange for crony capitalism, fully supported by the political establishment that signed onto the Washington concensus in the 90s (and this is not unique to Argentina). Progressive legislation is usually appropriated from actual minority and socialist parties at the last minute and then rammed through by governments. These are governments that have shown that they are extremely willing to seek out electoral rent-seeking agreements, recieve lobbies from the same multinational companies they are so against, and push forward their entrenchment in the machinery of the state to the point of demanding constitutional reform. If you are looking for heroes of resistance you won't find them sitting in any of the presidential palaces of Latin America. I see. Good explanation. Is there anything in Latin America that makes you hopeful? What would you say Latin America needs?
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Sep 15, 2016 00:40
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punk rebel ecks posted:I see. Good explanation. An actual violent and bloody revolution. Now frig off.
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Sep 15, 2016 00:51
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punk rebel ecks posted:Is there anything in Latin America that makes you hopeful? Not really, but the "bright side" imo is that everybody in the world is basically the same so nothing will ever get better anywhere. What I mean is, when you see even Brazil slowly becoming this huge xenophobic ball of spite you know it's an inescapable wave for every country, sooner or later.
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Sep 15, 2016 05:12
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Sephyr posted:
The Menem government is emblematic of Peronism because Peronism has no single ideological tenet apart from nationalistic appeals. It is only in the business of seizing and maintaining power. This is why Peronism has no problem associating itself with supposed progressive sindicalism and lgbt groups one day, and then opposing abortion and espousing conservative traditional-values the next while it bows down to the Pope. Why is the Menemist government not Peronist? Is it because it Perón was "the first worker of Argentina" and Menem sold out the industrial base and de deprived workers of representation for cash and corrupt favours? Is that different than a wholesale mismanagement of national industry only kept afloat because of an extremely positive trade balance while workers still have no representation because unions are forcibly centralised and ruled in very authoritarian means? (am I talking about the first Peronism or the Kirchnerist government? Who knows!) The history I papered over in calling Menem a Peronist was the non-Peronist context that forced the PJ to adopt such a posture. The people that won with Menem were the same ones who followed Cafiero and the same ones who then supported the Kirchnerists. They're the same ones who are going to end up backing whatever figure emerges from the corpse of Cristina Kirchner. Para un Peronista, no puede haber nada mejor que otro Peronista.
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Sep 15, 2016 07:22
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This thread is big and I apologized if someone's talked about it before, but how has the new Argentinian government been so far? The recent cave in to vulture funds was deeply disturbing, have they slashed government services and other things to repay the debt?
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Sep 16, 2016 02:26
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tekz posted:This thread is big and I apologized if someone's talked about it before, but how has the new Argentinian government been so far? The recent cave in to vulture funds was deeply disturbing, have they slashed government services and other things to repay the debt? As a Chilean I only keep updated on Argentina issues by osmosis but the gist of it is that Macri was elected in hopes he'd fix the economic clusterfuck, there are no signs of recovery yet (and arguably things are quite a bit worse due to inflation, stagnating wages, unemployment), and patience is starting to wear thin. There was the usual sacking of public employees with the change of administration and some specific benefits and subsidies were withdrawn early on (I think an energy subsidy was the biggest one? I remember it causing a fuzz earlier this year) but iono if the there's been major cuts after that.
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Sep 16, 2016 18:56
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How accurate is this? http://www.telesurtv.net/english/opinion/Groundhog-Day-Looms-in-Argentina-as-the-IMF-Returns-20160917-0019.html
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Sep 19, 2016 21:44
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So tomorrow Temer is gonna speak at the UN. Here's hoping the heckling he got in N.Y. repeats.
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Sep 20, 2016 00:11
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tekz posted:How accurate is this? It's Telesur.
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Sep 20, 2016 18:20
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http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37417356quote:Five members of Cuba's national volleyball team have been convicted of raping a Finnish woman during a World League tournament in Tampere. Four of the men, including the captain, were given five-year jail sentences while a fifth is facing a prison term of three and a half years. They were detained in the southern Finnish city on 2 July after a woman said she had been raped at a hotel. I'm curious, has this story been reported at all in Latin media? What's the narrative in your press?
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Sep 20, 2016 18:32
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It's hasn't and I don't think anyone cares enough to build a narrative.
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Sep 20, 2016 20:12
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Friendly Humour posted:http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37417356 Of the 5 Chilean sites I've seen today only 1 mentioned it, and it didn't report it any differently than the BBC article
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Sep 20, 2016 21:27
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Huh, curious. It seems like such a ready made case to do a "whites racist againsts latins" campaign in vein of racist british tabloids.
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Sep 20, 2016 22:45
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Friendly Humour posted:Huh, curious. It seems like such a ready made case to do a "whites racist againsts latins" campaign in vein of racist british tabloids. You grossly overestimate how much we care for each other. I bet the most prominent sentiment is "meh, they're Cubans, they probably did it".
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Sep 20, 2016 22:55
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Friendly Humour posted:Huh, curious. It seems like such a ready made case to do a "whites racist againsts latins" campaign in vein of racist british tabloids. Latin America has significantly less racial tension than the first world. Also they probably did do it.
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Sep 20, 2016 23:01
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There's been a lot of anti Cuban sentiment here the last few years they probably agree with the charges.
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Sep 20, 2016 23:11
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Oh they definately did. One curious thing about Finnish courts is that they do actually judge cases based on facts. Not that I particularly care about the case mind you (it's just a regular criminal case, who cares), just that Nordic courts can generally be counted on being impartial. Speaking of racial tension, I've lately been listening to teh Revolutions podcast, two series of late which have been dealing of late with the revolutions of Haiti and Bolivar in particular, I've been wondering what, if any racial tensions remain from the dynamics of that era? I mean, much of the wars of that era were couched in racial and class distinctions between the white European colonials and the subordinate Meztiso and slave African populations. Does any of that still play a role in South America in whatever sense?
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Sep 20, 2016 23:13
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Friendly Humour posted:Oh they definately did. One curious thing about Finnish courts is that they do actually judge cases based on facts. Not that I particularly care about the case mind you (it's just a regular criminal case, who cares), just that Nordic courts can generally be counted on being impartial. Unrelated to that Moro accepted the MPF's report and Lula's now going to be a defendant. Welp.
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Sep 20, 2016 23:25
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Mismanagement times infinity, Two separate announcements on Monday from officials at Petrobras, Brazil’s state-owned oil company, reveal the massive damage it has suffered over the last 10 years. First was the news that it just successfully concluded the offloading of its precious gas pipeline unit for an estimated $5 billion. The company said this was just part of its determination to sell off about $20 billion of its assets over the next couple of years in order to pay down some of its $125 billion indebtedness. The second announcement was even more revealing: Petrobras is cutting its capital investment in half, from the $159 billion it planned on spending to develop its recently discovered oil finds off the shores of Rio de Janeiro, to just $82 billion. Ten years ago the company announced plans to make capital investments of $45 billion a year. That number has been cut to just $16 billion. The company is making its cuts based on predictions that the global price of crude oil will be $48 a barrel this year, will increase to $56 a barrel next year, $68 a barrel in 2018, and $71 a barrel in the out years. Altogether then, the company hopes to cut its debt-to-earnings ratio from a towering 5.3 times to a slightly more manageable 2.5 times. That estimate is also based on a strengthening of Brazil's currency, the real, which some are questioning in light of the country’s increasing rate of inflation. http://www.thenewamerican.com/world-news/south-america/item/24099-brazil-s-oil-company-shrinks-following-operation-car-wash-scandal
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Sep 20, 2016 23:47
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tekz posted:This thread is big and I apologized if someone's talked about it before, but how has the new Argentinian government been so far? The recent cave in to vulture funds was deeply disturbing, have they slashed government services and other things to repay the debt? So far so underwhelming.
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Sep 21, 2016 01:00
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Thought the thread would be interested in this: http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/national/2016/09/20/this-was-not-an-accident-this-was-a-bomb/ "This was not an accident. This was a bomb.’ Secret police, hired killers and a former Chilean diplomat’s brazen murder in the streets of D.C.: The assassination of Orlando Letelier, as told by those who knew him and found his killers" Check the comments for bonus fun
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Sep 21, 2016 18:24
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emdash posted:Check the comments for bonus fun Actually don't
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Sep 21, 2016 20:24
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Ghost of Mussolini posted:Actually don't Okay, so it depends on whether you consider Pinochet revisionism "fun" 
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Sep 21, 2016 20:34
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If anything, open, bald-faced Pinochet apologism is becoming increasingly rare in public discourse in Chile, and it's slowly being banished to the nadir of civilization that is the comments sections of El Mercurio and La Tercera. Mind you, that doesn't mean that reactionaries don't feel pretty much the same way about Pinochet that they did before, they just do it underneath a thin layer of dogwhistles. But I feel like a guy like Bolsonaro, to give an example, would never fly in Chile's political system.
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Sep 22, 2016 01:09
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Was Pinochet's rule really that bad? I ran into one of these reactionaries before and they went on about how before Pinochet, Chile was just like Venezuela and everyone was starving because there was no food. Then Pinochet fixed everything only for a brief depression due to him having to switch away from the dollar. How wrong was this?
punk rebel ecks fucked around with this message at 01:18 on Sep 22, 2016 |
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Sep 22, 2016 01:12
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