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Waffles Inc. posted:How big, realistically, can this series even get? We might be over 800 pokes with S&M, probably couldn't hurt to do another soft or hard reboot at some point. Like, anyone under 20 doesn't give a poo poo about Gen 1 I wouldn't think With all the forced Gen 1 Nostalgia? Like Pokemon Go is all Gen 1 and thats still stupid popular. I predict it will grow until it stops selling. Like maybe in the 5k range or so.
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Sep 22, 2016 03:31
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there are many more pokemon yet to be discovered. i intend to catch all of them
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Sep 22, 2016 03:50
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Waffles Inc. posted:How big, realistically, can this series even get? We might be over 800 pokes with S&M, probably couldn't hurt to do another soft or hard reboot at some point. Like, anyone under 20 doesn't give a poo poo about Gen 1 I wouldn't think I would guess they don't really differentiate between generations that came before they got into the series. It's not like there's any demarcation between them in the games. If anything they might like the old ones better with things like remakes and Pokemon Go. If someone started with X and Y there's probably several gen 5 pokemon they barely know exist.
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Sep 22, 2016 03:51
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I can't see them ever stopping making new Pokemon, but I can see each generation getting smaller and smaller in terms of purely new monsters, with more of an emphasis on things like regional and alternate forms. Like, I can totally see a new generation at some point that's just the starters + a handful of legendaries + maybe 20ish other new monsters.
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Sep 22, 2016 04:25
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I could easily imagine that within 10 years we'll have a generation that breaks backwards compatibility and doesn't have all 2k or whatever pokemon coded into it, so forgettable poo poo like Stantler just no longer exists. Then the third version can come along and drive excitement by announcing some beloved old thing like Flygon or whatever is being re-added.
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Sep 22, 2016 04:29
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https://twitter.com/notty_jirachi/status/778262167594209280
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Sep 22, 2016 04:35
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Sebadoh Gigante posted:*citation needed Agreed there. So far, the Alola forms have all been for Pokemon that were always fairly weak, but left in the dust by time. If they can min-max them all into something powerful to match the new types, I'd be all for it.
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Sep 22, 2016 04:50
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Sebadoh Gigante posted:*citation needed I skipped ORAS competitive season and I still get loving cold shakes from how rough the Protect metagame has grown with the inclusion of megas. 
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Sep 22, 2016 05:08
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I'm predicting that Alolan Persian will gain a Steel typing to become a Dark/Steel type. This is mostly due to the idea that Meowth's forehead charm is its most famous feature and regular Meowth lose it when it becomes a Persian (it turns into that generic red gem that a few other Pokémon have). Having Alolan Meowth's charm become an elaborate crown would be really cool to see.
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Sep 22, 2016 05:11
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Zuzie posted:I'm predicting that Alolan Persian will gain a Steel typing to become a Dark/Steel type. This is mostly due to the idea that Meowth's forehead charm is its most famous feature and regular Meowth lose it when it becomes a Persian (it turns into that generic red gem that a few other Pokémon have). Having Alolan Meowth's charm become an elaborate crown would be really cool to see. Dark/Rock with more gems might work as well.
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Sep 22, 2016 05:16
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Zuzie posted:I'm predicting that Alolan Persian will gain a Steel typing to become a Dark/Steel type. This is mostly due to the idea that Meowth's forehead charm is its most famous feature and regular Meowth lose it when it becomes a Persian (it turns into that generic red gem that a few other Pokémon have). Having Alolan Meowth's charm become an elaborate crown would be really cool to see. Wonder if they'll keep its stats as a mix attacker, go all one way, or shake it up and make it more defensive.
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Sep 22, 2016 05:23
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The reason a good player can do well in VGC even if they usually play a different ruleset is simple; its still Pokemon. The fundamental skills that let you excel at one format transfer to every other one. In the end its still turn based strategy that revolves heavily around team composition and prediction. You just need to be familiar with how a given battle format works and the current metagame in it. Singles is less complex than doubles simply because less stuff works there. This isn't a matter of opinion. There are moves and abilities that straight up do nothing in singles.
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Sep 22, 2016 05:23
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Sep 22, 2016 05:44
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Sebadoh Gigante posted:*citation needed turn by turn sure, there's more going on but the vgc metagame tends to be a bit more centralized, additionally with such shorter games the long-term strategies you often see in singles (particularly in older generations) aren't as present in vgc. more matches are decided on 50/50s (aka either play COULD be right, it's literally a coinflip what your opponent does) than is the case in singles play. higher level of play is intuitive (i play both formats, am one of the best singles players in the world and althought i play vgc a much lower amount, im about the level of worlds player, thought atm im not sure if i would make top cut). realistically if i had the time and inclination, i could likely compete on the big stage w/ vgc without too much difficulty, but i prefer the convenience and history and style of singles much more. but ppl are free to like whatever they want, please dont take it as an endorsement of one over the other edit: i'll also say that part of what makes me believe that singles is currently more competitive comes from being personally involved w/ many people in the communities. a good friend of mine, nails, is overall an average-to-slightly above average player but was able to get to finals of Nugget Bridges big money tournament on his first go around, another, Blarajan, who i dont find very good at all was able to make day 2 worlds in his first vgc season. it happens a lot, there are players who are solidly "good" in the smogon tour culture but not "great" (mcmeghan, ojama, bloo, earthworm, tesung, etc) that end up doing really really well whenever they try VGC. tbp fucked around with this message at 05:59 on Sep 22, 2016 |
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Sep 22, 2016 05:44
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Internet Kraken posted:
hm, sort of. you are certainly correct in a turn-by-turn and number-of-usable-moves kinda way. but in practice that isn't as much the case. take for example vgc 16. there was what, 5-6 teams to contend with (lumping together those with extraordinairily similar composition). vgc 15 i think was even worse, with all the japanese top cut guys using the same thing over and over. a metagame that allows super ultra centralizing pokemon tends to, well, centralize around them - so if you want to excel in VGC you need to be able to handle fewer teams with your own. even if you take JUST oras ou, there's waaaay more you will need to contend with. take the concept that each tournament match in OST (the flagship "current gen OU" tournament) is bo3 and then later bo5, as well. in VGC, teamlock rules are in effect. so you may lose g1 of the bo3 but figure out some tech on the opposing team, and be able to apply that g2 and 3. in OST, you can play hard-stall focus around mega sableye g1, Diancie hyper offense g2 and baton pass g3. simply put the number of strategies usable in any given series increases in a singles tournament, the way that they are currently organized. additionally when comparing the two as tournaments (so worlds vs smogon tournaments) you should also note that smogon tournaments get a bit more complex with tiers, as well. VGC is ALWAYS "current ruleset VGC". in Smogon tournaments, you may be playing in OST (bo3 current gen OU), Smogon Tour (bo3 ORAS, BW2, DPP), Classic (bo5 BW, DPP, ADV, GSC, RBY) or Grand Slam (bo5 Ubers, UU, RU, NU, PU, LC, Doubles drop 2 tiers). basically what i'm trying to get across, while the complexity of a given turn might be higher in VGC compared to most smogon tournaments (you have to outright exclude anything including Smogon Doubles OU, which is by nature more complex turn by turn than VGC, and always will be), the complexity of a given series is pretty heavily in favor of the latter the way that they are currently organized.
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Sep 22, 2016 05:54
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Sep 22, 2016 06:10
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gently caress you, get out of my thread.
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Sep 22, 2016 06:19
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New Ash doesn't look like Ash.
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Sep 22, 2016 06:24
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tbp posted:hm, sort of. you are certainly correct in a turn-by-turn and number-of-usable-moves kinda way. but in practice that isn't as much the case. I have not a clue about what you are saying and I've never been happier to be ignorant.
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Sep 22, 2016 06:33
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heh. also tbp is right but i didn't read all of his posts also megas will NOT be in sun and moon
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Sep 22, 2016 06:33
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tbp posted:turn by turn sure, there's more going on but the vgc metagame tends to be a bit more centralized, additionally with such shorter games the long-term strategies you often see in singles (particularly in older generations) aren't as present in vgc. more matches are decided on 50/50s (aka either play COULD be right, it's literally a coinflip what your opponent does) than is the case in singles play. You're applying a double standard here. You're claiming one format is chance but the other is intuition. Any format of competitive pokemon, but especially VGC, revolves around managing probabilities. This isn't strictly quantitative, but I think the "intuition" comes from quickly and accurately deducing your opponent's moves and reacting accordingly. I would argue that this "intuition" plays a relatively larger role in VGC than in the Smogon format, but it's still plays a role in any format. Smogon singles are more dependent on planning ahead than thinking on your feet. In other words, the opposite of what you just said. I guess if you still wanted to use the word "intuition" to describe each, you could put it in terms of Jungian functions: singles emphasizes introverted intuition while doubles emphasizes extroverted intuition. Or in Myers Briggs terms, singles emphasizes judging and doubles emphasizes perceiving, but that's mostly pseudo-scientific mumbo jumbo anyway. quote:(i play both formats, am one of the best singles players in the world and althought i play vgc a much lower amount, im about the level of worlds player, thought atm im not sure if i would make top cut). realistically if i had the time and inclination, i could likely compete on the big stage w/ vgc without too much difficulty, but i prefer the convenience and history and style of singles much more. but ppl are free to like whatever they want, please dont take it as an endorsement of one over the other Different people are better at different things. I never had any history with Smogon but I still managed to win first place in the first Nugget Bridge tournament I participated in. There are people that have top cut or even won the first regional they've participated in. I doubt they were all Smogon people. Some people just pick up the format more quickly than others, that's not necessarily due to any secret smogon ninja training.
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Sep 22, 2016 06:35
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i meant its intuitive for me, by watching them. not that the playing itself is intuitive edit: and nah i mean no disrespect to the vgc folks, there's plenty of really good players that stick to that only. in my estimation right now, i think smogon players are generally better, but i've said before i expect that gap to close sooner rather than later - probably before the end of SuMo you will have the top players in the world focusing primarily on VGC.
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Sep 22, 2016 06:38
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Every time I see this I see the Macarena.
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Sep 22, 2016 06:38
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tbp posted:i meant its intuitive for me, by watching them. not that the playing itself is intuitive That's just like, your opinion man.
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Sep 22, 2016 06:40
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PSWII60 posted:Every time I see this I see the Macarena. You see the macarena every time you watch the twin towers fall? That's hosed up.
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Sep 22, 2016 06:42
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Sebadoh Gigante posted:That's just like, your opinion man. yup! and the two communities dont interact much so its all just shooting the breeze to talk about, anyway, tho i do know smogon intends to become the go-to for VGC stuff during this gen (as nugget bridge is kinda dying, and twitter being the primary community hub kinda sucks for something where u usualy want long analyses). i intend to play primarily vgc during sun and moon because the singles tiers i enjoy most don't see a ton of activity during most of the year (ADV mainly). so i can stick to playing ADV during smogon premier league and in ADV Cup, and VGC for the rest of the time, and honestly from my interaction w the mons community as a whole i know more and more people are moving into the format
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Sep 22, 2016 06:43
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tbp posted:yup! and the two communities dont interact much so its all just shooting the breeze to talk about, anyway, tho i do know smogon intends to become the go-to for VGC stuff during this gen (as nugget bridge is kinda dying, and twitter being the primary community hub kinda sucks for something where u usualy want long analyses). I hadn't been paying much attention to things this season but I remember checking nugget bridge for the first time in months and being really disappointed to see it all shriveled up. Reading other people's long form analyses really helped me a lot when starting out, and I still like reading about teams I've seen in action so I can see the thought process behind them. That'd be cool if smogon picked up the slack.
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Sep 22, 2016 06:48
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Sebadoh Gigante posted:I hadn't been paying much attention to things this season but I remember checking nugget bridge for the first time in months and being really disappointed to see it all shriveled up. Reading other people's long form analyses really helped me a lot when starting out, and I still like reading about teams I've seen in action so I can see the thought process behind them. That'd be cool if smogon picked up the slack. yeah for some reason they switched to like, a blog-style format or something, now the information is hidden amongst a lot of noise which is hard to keep up w/. one thing i really love about VGC is that the people that teambuild have ludicrous attention to detail - EVs are so on point that they do stuff across like three attacks (ex: this spread lives a gengar tbolt, OHKOs char-y at -1, and outspeeds greninja at +1) or stuff like that. you never see that poo poo in ORAS OU, so many mons are just 252/252 + which is boring after some time. coincidentally thats another thing i love a lot about ADV, i make spreads that end up accomplishing really specific stuff and look like this at the end: Cloyster @ Leftovers Ability: Shell Armor EVs: 252 HP / 64 Atk / 16 Def / 88 SpA / 88 SpD Relaxed Nature - Spikes - Rapid Spin - Ice Beam - Explosion
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Sep 22, 2016 06:53
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Ka0 posted:I have not a clue about what you are saying and I've never been happier to be ignorant. not a single thing in that post was difficult to understand
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Sep 22, 2016 06:56
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Ka0 posted:I have not a clue about what you are saying and I've never been happier to be ignorant. vgc stands for "Video Games! Cool!"
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Sep 22, 2016 06:59
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tbp posted:hm, sort of. you are certainly correct in a turn-by-turn and number-of-usable-moves kinda way. but in practice that isn't as much the case. That's a whole lot of words that completely miss my point. Singles is literally less complex than doubles, and this is by design. I'm not talking about VGC or Smogon formats, I'm talking about the actual game itself. A bunch of mechanics don't work in singles and I can't think of a single one that doesn't work in doubles. And its pretty clear that this trend is only gonna continue on from here; more stuff is being added that is designed entirely around being used in battles with more than one pokemon.
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Sep 22, 2016 07:00
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tbp posted:yeah for some reason they switched to like, a blog-style format or something, now the information is hidden amongst a lot of noise which is hard to keep up w/. one thing i really love about VGC is that the people that teambuild have ludicrous attention to detail - EVs are so on point that they do stuff across like three attacks (ex: this spread lives a gengar tbolt, OHKOs char-y at -1, and outspeeds greninja at +1) or stuff like that. you never see that poo poo in ORAS OU, so many mons are just 252/252 + which is boring after some time. this is badass.
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Sep 22, 2016 07:00
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tbp posted:VGC for the rest of the time, and honestly from my interaction w the mons community as a whole i know more and more people are moving into the format Well that's a shame.
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Sep 22, 2016 07:03
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Zore posted:With all the forced Gen 1 Nostalgia? Like Pokemon Go is all Gen 1 and thats still stupid popular. "popular"
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Sep 22, 2016 07:03
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Internet Kraken posted:That's a whole lot of words that completely miss my point. oh, my mistake for misunderstanding
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Sep 22, 2016 07:04
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qnqnx posted:Well that's a shame. in a sense yeah, itd be cool if nintendo cared at all about singles, but the design of the game is just pretty flawed. power creep has made oras kinda unfun, a "long term" strategy for some games is like "get diancie to 70%, DD with charizard X and win" which is kinda boring all things considered. i sound like an old person w/ this but its one of the main reasons im a big fan of older generations, probably the perfect balance between defensive and offensive power was gen 3 where i think singles peaked.
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Sep 22, 2016 07:05
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I don't remember all the deets offhand but my favorite custom set is my Snorlax. Belly Drum, Rest, Last resort, no fourth move. Chesto Berry. Its just a gimmick but its funny and I named it the Jeff Special. I'm Jeff.
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Sep 22, 2016 07:05
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Where do I insert my crack about Sludge Wave Gengar in this discussion?
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Sep 22, 2016 07:11
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tbp posted:in a sense yeah, itd be cool if nintendo cared at all about singles, but the design of the game is just pretty flawed. power creep has made oras kinda unfun, a "long term" strategy for some games is like "get diancie to 70%, DD with charizard X and win" which is kinda boring all things considered. i sound like an old person w/ this but its one of the main reasons im a big fan of older generations, probably the perfect balance between defensive and offensive power was gen 3 where i think singles peaked. Personally I preferred gen 4, really need that physical/special split. Admittedly I haven't bothered with laddering in years, last time was roughly before B2/W2 when pokemononline.eu was still the go to simulator. Permarain everywhere was boring and gen 6 was even more of a snoozefest even by merely looking in it's general direction.
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Sep 22, 2016 07:14
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tbp posted:i sound like an old person w/ this but its one of the main reasons im a big fan of older generations, probably the perfect balance between defensive and offensive power was gen 3 where i think singles peaked. *inserts copy of Pokemon Emerald into GameCube GBA player and dons raincoat* You know, the third generation was when the series really came into its own, commercially and artistically.
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Sep 22, 2016 07:17
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