|
Teddles posted:The thing is though, Canada only accepts refugees when it's ready for them because it's basically impossible to get to Canada without using legitimate, government-controllable transport routes (no-one's taking dinghys across the Atlantic). Meanwhile, refugees can walk to Germany under their own steam, meaning ready or not, here I come! Central American refugees in the 80s could walk to Canada and still integrated better.
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2016 04:50
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 19:53 |
|
|
computer parts posted:Central American refugees in the 80s could walk to Canada and still integrated better.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2016 05:11
|
|
|
Iggore posted:It is true that the USA and Canada do not share the same challenge than Europe. The problem stem from the perception that the Europeans, with all their ressources and know-how, are not giving themselves the means to meet this challenge. They're only acting through reaction while doing as little as possible, probably because population management on such a scale would be a very costly and superficially ugly thing (camps, etc). Population management with camps, ugly or otherwise, does not solve the problem.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2016 07:21
|
|
|
computer parts posted:Central American refugees in the 80s could walk to Canada and still integrated better. About 50.000 Central Americans migrated to Canada during the 80ies. Integrating 5000 people a year doesn't sound that impressive tbh. And after the US tightened the screws on illegal immigrants, Canada reacted by increasing border security.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2016 08:04
|
|
|
Renzi's been talking tough about austerity and the recent Bratislava summit: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-09-20/austerity-only-benefits-germany-and-destroys-europe-renzi-saysquote:Italian Prime Minister Matteo Renzi had some fighting words for German leader Angela Merkel: Your obsession with austerity is strangling Europe and your country is the only one profiting.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2016 08:16
|
|
|
doverhog posted:Population management with camps, ugly or otherwise, does not solve the problem. It certainly doesn't. Camps are just a location to focus both ressources (medical, educational, security) and population while you process the later. Camps are just a tool supporting a strategy serving an hypothetical grand objective. Camps would've also served as a deterrent to the illusory notion that once in Europe, you'd be granted a fancy appartement in a fancy city, notion that is used by the migrant passeurs to market their illegal services. Camps would've also gave the impression that something concret was done by governments, which would have deflated far-right political capital. A network of large camps on the periphery of Mediterranean countries, build according to the best-practices observed in Turkey, with EU money and know-how, would have had a chance to greatly diminish the crisis. Heck the migrants could've also provided labor. Teachers and nurses would've been needed. With a little bit of foresight it could have been done. They knew the war in Syria had displaced a fraction of the population, they knew there was a large network of illegal human trafficking in the Méditerranée, they should've known better than say "everybody welcome" just to wake up on day with no plans and with a flow of 10 000 migrants and refugees of unknown and unverifiable nationality sitting on your borders every day, while you lack the legal tools to send them back would you need to do so, and the economical context and job market to integrate most of them. Iggore fucked around with this message at 21:47 on Sep 21, 2016 |
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2016 21:34
|
|
|
All embracing far right ideas does is severely set back the integration process of existing immigrants. It does jack poo poo against the rise of far right parties. This has been proven time and again in Europe. Social work, education, and medical resources are best concentrated in the cities, where they can benefit the existing population and also can actually be effective due to the presence of jobs and opportunities to interact with the native population for the migrants. Information what life in Europe is like spreads to immigrant origin countries in real time by cell phone.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2016 21:49
|
|
|
Einbauschrank posted:About 50.000 Central Americans migrated to Canada during the 80ies. More or less what Sweden (a country of ca 10 mil people) received in about five weeks at the height of the crisis in 2015. It's a ludicrously ignorant comparison.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2016 23:12
|
|
|
Einbauschrank posted:About 50.000 Central Americans migrated to Canada during the 80ies. I'm not finding those statistics but I did find these: quote:Migration to more distant countries such as the United States and Canada was less common, although a few thousand Central Americans lived in cities such as Washington, San Francisco, New York, and Miami by end of the 1970s. As the wars escalated, these smaller northern populations served as magnets, encouraging further migration. The 1980 census in the United States, for example, counted 94,447 Salvadorans and 63,073 Guatemalans, and close to half had arrived in the previous five years. so 75,000 people arrived in the US within 5 years, and 12,000 were arrested (not arrived) in one year alone. And this is before the main crisis occurred.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2016 23:26
|
|
|
aphid_licker posted:All embracing far right ideas does is severely set back the integration process of existing immigrants. It does jack poo poo against the rise of far right parties. This has been proven time and again in Europe. Social work, education, and medical resources are best concentrated in the cities, where they can benefit the existing population and also can actually be effective due to the presence of jobs and opportunities to interact with the native population for the migrants. Information what life in Europe is like spreads to immigrant origin countries in real time by cell phone. I believe that this process, of allocating migrants in various cities and region, is appropriate for an immigration rate that is chosen, controlled and wanted by the general population. But when the rate is sustained, uncontrolled, dictated by outside factors (geography, demography, war) and the view that it is suffered, then you need stronger mesures. The presence of migrant camps within host countries, the public perception of them, the instrumentalisation of multiple incidents like the "Cologne attacks", Merkel's mea culpa a few days ago... all seem to point toward that conclusion. What has been proved time and time is based on experience with controlled immigration, which does not reflect the current situation. e: Wait, do you think that relying on camps is a far-right idea? Because it isn't, even if it happen to satisfy the perception of increased security. Iggore fucked around with this message at 00:32 on Sep 22, 2016 |
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2016 00:13
|
|
|
We could have had a controlled migration if the UN and it's quota wasn't non-scaling garbage. Same with the EU and its redistribution mechanism which has no way of actually making nations comply except wave fines around. All that the EU learned from Yugoslavia was that " , lets just have a strong external border regime to avoid this poo poo in the future" and then after that nothing of meaning was actually done to create a functioning distributive system. Instead we got a race to the bottom when the external border stopped functioning and now no one except the few Syrians lucky enough to still have money for smuggling and possession of their passports are getting help.Also, dear Canadian guy Cake Smashing Boob posted:More or less what Sweden (a country of ca 10 mil people) received in about five weeks at the height of the crisis in 2015. It's a ludicrously ignorant comparison.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2016 03:38
|
|
|
computer parts posted:I'm not finding those statistics but I did find these: Try these: http://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/canada-northern-refuge-central-americans Canada had about 25 million inhabitants back then and took in ~50.000 Central Americans over the span of a decade. Sweden: 10 mio and [corrected: 160.000] asylum seekers within a single year. Germany: 80mio people and roughly 1.1 million asylum seekers in 2015. Another 900.000 regular immigrants on top of that. Einbauschrank fucked around with this message at 11:12 on Sep 22, 2016 |
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2016 11:00
|
|
|
Sweden received over 160 000 asylum seekers in 2015.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2016 11:07
|
|
|
Cake Smashing Boob posted:Sweden received over 160 000 asylum seekers in 2015. Thx. I edited my post, there is already enough misinformation out there, I do not want to add to it. Einbauschrank fucked around with this message at 12:52 on Sep 22, 2016 |
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2016 11:13
|
|
|
Einbauschrank posted:Germany: 80mio people and roughly 1.1 million asylum seekers in 2015. Another 900.000 regular immigrants on top of that. While it's correct that there were 1.2 mio border crossings in 2015, the number of refugees in Germany only increased by ~600k. Most people moved on to different countries, returned home or were counting errors to begin with. http://www.zeit.de/gesellschaft/zeitgeschehen/2016-03/asyl-deutschland-gefluechtete-zahlen-geringer-anfrage-die-linke Also, there is absolutely no way that the German population increased by 2 mio, even going by your numbers. You either forgot to subtract the emigration& population shrinkage (shrinkage alone is something like 200k per year, due to Germans not loving each other anymore) or you are double counting refugees as "immigrants". 2 mio is a ridiculous number.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2016 14:50
|
|
|
waitwhatno posted:While it's correct that there were 1.2 mio border crossings in 2015, the number of refugees in Germany only increased by ~600k. Most people moved on to different countries, returned home or were counting errors to begin with.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2016 15:10
|
|
|
A Buttery Pastry posted:I'm not sure why you would subtract emigration (non-German emigration excluded.) and dying Germans figures from the immigration numbers. Sure, in a pure population growth discussion it makes sense, but the opposition to immigration and refugees in Europe is clearly not born out of a hatred of (general) population growth. You are right about the death rate, it was just my attempt to highlight that there are 200k people disappearing from this country every year and that they need to be replaced, if you just want to keep things running. 200k new people coming in each year is like basic maintenance. Regarding the emigration, the overhelming majority of non-refugee migration in Germany is from and to EU countries. It's sounds scary if you say that there are 900k French swarming into Germany each year, until you also mention that there are 899k French swarming out of Germany at the same time.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2016 15:23
|
|
|
Who are the main cronies and associates of National Front beside Marine Le Pen?
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2016 15:43
|
|
|
Grouchio posted:Who are the main cronies and associates of National Front beside Marine Le Pen?
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2016 16:04
|
|
|
waitwhatno posted:You are right about the death rate, it was just my attempt to highlight that there are 200k people disappearing from this country every year and that they need to be replaced, if you just want to keep things running. What I don't understand is this pro-immigration argument that there must be, at any cost, a replacement for a declining population. Is this an endgame for any developed country, where you reach a point where for whatever reason population declines and only way to sustain the growth is to import a ton of workforce, vulturing and braindraining poorer countries? Wouldn't the coming automatization fix this issue by itself?
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2016 18:50
|
|
|
Chemtrail posted:What I don't understand is this pro-immigration argument that there must be, at any cost, a replacement for a declining population. Is this an endgame for any developed country, where you reach a point where for whatever reason population declines and only way to sustain the growth is to import a ton of workforce, vulturing and braindraining poorer countries? Wouldn't the coming automatization fix this issue by itself? It's not an amazing argument because refugees and immigrants should be welcome regardless of population growth, but you are basically saying that if automation kills off a million jobs then a million people might as well die since they're now useless.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2016 18:54
|
|
|
YF-23 posted:It's not an amazing argument because refugees and immigrants should be welcome regardless of population growth, but you are basically saying that if automation kills off a million jobs then a million people might as well die since they're now useless. well they're going to die anyway.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2016 18:58
|
|
|
YF-23 posted:It's not an amazing argument because refugees and immigrants should be welcome regardless of population growth, but you are basically saying that if automation kills off a million jobs then a million people might as well die since they're now useless.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2016 19:02
|
|
|
Abolish work. I'll vote for the party that advocates suppressing work and work-based activities
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2016 19:02
|
|
|
This week in EU dysfunction: Belgian policemen arrested in France for giving migrants a ride. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37442328 quote:Two Belgian policemen have been questioned by their French counterparts after they were caught with 13 illegal immigrants in their car.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2016 19:13
|
|
|
YF-23 posted:It's not an amazing argument because refugees and immigrants should be welcome regardless of population growth, but you are basically saying that if automation kills off a million jobs then a million people might as well die since they're now useless. I'm clearly not saying people should die, but all this recent talk about basic income in several European countries indicate that we are approaching the point where many professions will become redundant. Besides, the argument that we need migrants because factory X needs more cheap workers is fuel for right-wing rhetoric and conspiracy theories, as this is probably the wet dream of any evil corporation CEO.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2016 19:14
|
|
|
Chemtrail posted:What I don't understand is this pro-immigration argument that there must be, at any cost, a replacement for a declining population. Is this an endgame for any developed country, where you reach a point where for whatever reason population declines and only way to sustain the growth is to import a ton of workforce, vulturing and braindraining poorer countries? Wouldn't the coming automatization fix this issue by itself? That's not an argument anyone is seriously making though. After the 60s, Germany has been consistently anti-immigration and it is in fact nearly impossible to immigrate here legally from outside the EU(it's called Fortress Europe for a reason after all). What people are arguing though is that if we HAVE to take people in, it will at least be a benefit to our aging society. The automatization argument is pretty academic right now. The German birthrate has been beyond replacement rate since the '70s and immigration has been keeping us afloat, maybe this will change in the coming decades but right now that's just the way it is. We are currently stepwise increasing our retirement age to 70 and it is a total bitch for people who are doing shift work or manual labour. My own generation got told straight out by the government that we are going to have to work as long as possible and that our pensions will be on subsistence level, if we don't save for retirement ourselves. Sooo ... sentient sexbots seem like a pretty distant problem to anyone 40+ right now, compare to that.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2016 19:33
|
|
|
Cat Mattress posted:This week in EU dysfunction: Belgian policemen arrested in France for giving migrants a ride. Invade Belgium. Belgians have no business running a friterie, much less a country
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2016 19:36
|
|
|
Chemtrail posted:I'm clearly not saying people should die, but all this recent talk about basic income in several European countries indicate that we are approaching the point where many professions will become redundant. Besides, the argument that we need migrants because factory X needs more cheap workers is fuel for right-wing rhetoric and conspiracy theories, as this is probably the wet dream of any evil corporation CEO. There are other reasons for mincome than the end of work, though that may be a thing too before too long. If you accept that social security is something a country should have, and that no one should be homeless or starving, next you have to answer how is this accomplished? Any form of means testing or other requirement introduces costs and inefficiencies, and the proponents of mincome believe, worse outcomes for those who need the support as well. Therefore it is possible to be for mincome without appealing to future robots stealing our jobs or whatever. Also, think self driving cars before sex bots, perv.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2016 19:36
|
|
|
doverhog posted:
who did? Every student job is basically going away anyway. Cashier jobs, starbucks etc. What result came out of finlands basic income experiment by the way? Is it finished yet?
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2016 19:53
|
|
|
doverhog posted:Also, think self driving cars before sex bots, perv. Doesn't really make a difference. Most experts agree that self driving cars are not coming before 2025 to our streets and that it will probably be much later than that. So, if you are 40+ right now and haven't saved for retirement your only hope to not live in poverty, not be worked to death and receive adequate care when you are old are not automatic cars but young Spanish factory workers and Polish care takers.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2016 19:58
|
|
|
Wild Horses posted:who did? You are really overestimating the speed of finnish politics. The experiment hasn't even started yet.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2016 19:58
|
|
|
Toplowtech posted:Louis Aliot (Marine LePen's domestic partern), Florian Philippot, Steeve Briois, Bruno Gollnisch(Marine Lepen's main rival for leadership after daddy's departure), Marion Maréchal-Le Pen(Marine's Niece), Nicolas Bay (former megretist now back in the fold). Any other important politicians (not in Hollande's party), businessmen, famous living people from France? And what sphere of influence does France have in the world besides the EU?
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2016 20:26
|
|
|
waitwhatno posted:Doesn't really make a difference. Most experts agree that self driving cars are not coming before 2025 to our streets and that it will probably be much later than that. So, if you are 40+ right now and haven't saved for retirement your only hope to not live in poverty, not be worked to death and receive adequate care when you are old are not automatic cars but young Spanish factory workers and Polish care takers.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2016 20:29
|
|
|
Grouchio posted:Merci Beaucoup. Africa mainly.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2016 20:30
|
|
|
Grouchio posted:Merci Beaucoup. Have you found a Death Note or something like that? Because I have a list of names, my dear friend...
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2016 21:25
|
|
|
waitwhatno posted:That's not an argument anyone is seriously making though. After the 60s, Germany has been consistently anti-immigration and it is in fact nearly impossible to immigrate here legally from outside the EU(it's called Fortress Europe for a reason after all). What people are arguing though is that if we HAVE to take people in, it will at least be a benefit to our aging society. Except that only works if the immigrants aren't pretty much exclusive young men fighting with the natives over the limited number of women. That's just creating an explosive situation. Also I read about a study a few months ago that showed immigrants weren't actually helping with any of the problems, it just increased the number of the people in the country. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2016 21:27
|
|
|
I don't think the idea behind refugees is to make them contribute to some national problem solving. It's to keep them from getting killed for as long as is necessary.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2016 21:29
|
|
|
Grouchio posted:And what sphere of influence does France have in the world besides the EU? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organisation_internationale_de_la_Francophonie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_for_the_Mediterranean By having retained a few "confetti of the empire", France has managed to get a foothold in various other clubs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_Community and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_Islands_Forum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Ocean_Commission https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_Caribbean_States Though it'd be more accurate to talk about "spheres of interest" than of influence, given how the ability of France to actually be influential has been on a sharp nosedive for a while now.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2016 21:37
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 19:53 |
|
|
steinrokkan posted:I don't think the idea behind refugees is to make them contribute to some national problem solving. Certainly, but a lot of people will try to use that as one of the key arguments, which is at the very least rather dishonest.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2016 21:51
|
|