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qnqnx posted:I'm personally fond of meritocracy. Not to say morality is very relative. Meritocracy isn't a form of government, rather it's a result of succesful governmental policies.
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Sep 22, 2016 18:31
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Every form of government leads to bad consequences. Death is certain. Prepare your anus.
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Sep 22, 2016 18:32
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GlyphGryph posted:Representative democracy is the currently the best known implementation of meritocracy (hardly flawless, but without any flaws other systems don't suffer from but worse), so if that's what you support it's really weird you're advocating pretty non-meritocratic dictators over it. Democracy only works when you filter out worthless votes from uneducated, selfish people, and then it stops being democracy. The dictatorship was more of a necessary evil.
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Sep 22, 2016 18:33
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Well the disctatorship certainly was evil, you got that right. I don't think you can defend mass murder and torture as necessary in any circumstances though. Unless of course if you think that no price is too high to keep left-wingers like Allende from power.
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Sep 22, 2016 18:40
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qnqnx posted:Actually it is a good excuse, and democracy isn't always the best form of government. Democracy is always a better choice of government than authoritarian dictators -- which basically any form of non-republican/elective government boils down to at it's root. The great myth is that authoritarian governments are capable of solving problems democracy can't because they're supposedly more efficient and able to make decisions that a 'crippled' government like pluralistic democracy can't -- but in practice that's never been true. Even the most absolute dictatorships, they're still beholden to various interests and stakeholders whom they have to appease in order to remain in power. They also tend to create high-level (corrupt) bureaucracy that exists to reinforce a system of patronage. qnqnx posted:Democracy only works when you filter out worthless votes from uneducated, selfish people, and then it stops being democracy. The dictatorship was more of a necessary evil. This is absolutely untrue and dictatorships don't do that either.
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Sep 22, 2016 18:40
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Mind, I'm not saying that you do, but that's the implication I'm drawing so maybe rephrase you argument? Thanks!
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Sep 22, 2016 18:41
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qnqnx posted:Democracy only works when you filter out worthless votes from uneducated, selfish people, and then it stops being democracy. The dictatorship was more of a necessary evil. No, actually, it works even if you don't. All you're revealing here is that you either don't actually understand how or why democracy works, or that you don't actually believe in meritocracy., since dictatorships, especially the ones being discussed, have the exact same problem of not filtering out the uneducated selfish people, while also actually torturing and executing (permanently filtering out) the well educated selfless ones. I'm guessing both, since you seem to think being generically "successful" somehow indicates governing merit (but only when it's you're preferred type of successful, I guess). GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 18:45 on Sep 22, 2016 |
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Sep 22, 2016 18:41
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GlyphGryph posted:No, actually, it works even if you don't. All you're revealing here is that you either don't actually understand how or why democracy works, or that you don't actually believe in meritocracy., since dictatorships, especially the ones being discussed, have the exact same problem of not filtering out the uneducated selfish people, while also actually torturing and executing (permanently filtering out) the well educated selfless ones. You seem to have a problem separating issues.
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Sep 22, 2016 18:48
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qnqnx posted:Classic D&D and their hatred of successful people. Oligarchs sucess is built on stealing from others. So exterminating them is like laying mouse traps out if you discover mice in your house. Its common sense.
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Sep 22, 2016 19:00
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Crowsbeak posted:Oligarchs sucess is built on stealing from others. So exterminating them is like laying mouse traps out if you discover mice in your house. Its common sense. This is why I never take leftists seriously.
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Sep 22, 2016 19:04
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qnqnx posted:This is why I never take leftists seriously. If your alternative to leftists are people like Pinochet, that moral highground of yours might in fact be more of a swamp tbh
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Sep 22, 2016 19:15
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"Meritocracy" is literally bourgeois aristocracy, i.e. "rule of the best." The old aristocrats decided who was among "the best" by ancestry, now it's to be decided by how much money you have and which fancy college you got your degree from.
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Sep 22, 2016 19:17
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You guys are falling for some pretty weak trolling today.
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Sep 22, 2016 19:23
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nerdz posted:You guys are falling for some pretty weak trolling today. Making people think you're an retard isn't trolling.
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Sep 22, 2016 19:30
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Good to see the thread getting some posts. Too bad about all the pinochetos coming out of the woodwork.MrNemo posted:This is based entirely on talking to people here in Argentina and very much in the wealthier bubble so take it for what it's worth. Macri has been pretty universally welcomed as an end to insane crony capitalism (mostly referred to as socialism, some of them see the distinction but quite a few just take it that socialists in South America=Sell out the country, enrich yourself) and an honest, technocratic government interested in actually fixing problems. Those in power now are generally wealthy, educated abroad, professionals. Many have had quite a bit of personal success in the private or professional sphere and are seen as immune from gross corruption because they're already well-off. As for the government itself, some consensus and some split opinions. Everyone thinks it's an improvement, they believe they're genuinely working towards improving the economy and creating a successful country that's better for everyone. Ending currency controls and welcoming in foreign investment is high point, bringing Argentina back into the world economy. Likewise prosecuting corruption and actually getting the country's finances straight is seen as a crucial first step. https://youtu.be/XKL6BtHwXC8 Also,  . May I ask were you are from? You really need to make some non yuppie friends.
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Sep 22, 2016 20:06
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Dias posted:He's just a bad poster, always check the rap sheet when in doubt. Ignore and move on. I thought we were friends? And my rap sheet is clean besides a resizing error.
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Sep 22, 2016 20:08
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punk rebel ecks posted:I thought we were friends? Dias was referring to tsa
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Sep 22, 2016 20:09
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punk rebel ecks posted:I thought we were friends? Not you, dude.  You're cool in my book, I know you don't come from a bad place on your questions and phrasing.
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Sep 22, 2016 20:17
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qnqnx posted:This is why I never take leftists seriously. Hey well of course you cannot see it that way. Sociopaths only recognize only power. That is why its good to make your kind fear your nature. Crowsbeak fucked around with this message at 21:08 on Sep 22, 2016 |
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Sep 22, 2016 21:06
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Stop arguing with the FYAD troll, for gently caress's sake. Anyway, Temer just presented a high school reform proposal. We'd go from 800 to 1.4k hours-class, instead of our current fixed curriculum students will be able to choose "focus areas" (languages, mathematics, natural sciences, humanes and technical and professional formation) - PE, sociology, arts and philosophy aren't mandatory classes for schools anymore. The wording on who can be hired as a teacher was been made a LOT looser too. Any of you Brazil goons following this closer?
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Sep 22, 2016 21:16
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Crowsbeak posted:Hey well of course you cannot see it that way. Sociopaths only recognize only power. That is why its good to make your kind fear your nature. Lol this is truly peak tumblr.
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Sep 22, 2016 21:17
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"I don't think everyone's opinion on the matter has any value" "SOCIOPATH! FASCIST!"
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Sep 22, 2016 21:19
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Jack of Hearts posted:"Meritocracy" is literally bourgeois aristocracy, i.e. "rule of the best." The old aristocrats decided who was among "the best" by ancestry, now it's to be decided by how much money you have and which fancy college you got your degree from. Actual meritocracy would require the abolishment of family and a ban on inheritance, so everyone has a relatively equivalent start. I wish him luck in achieving that pipe-dream, keep up the fight qnqnx! All you have to do is destroy the oldest institution in every social animal!
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Sep 22, 2016 21:20
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ZearothK posted:Actual meritocracy would require the abolishment of family and a ban on inheritance, so everyone has a relatively equivalent start. I wish him luck in achieving that pipe-dream, keep up the fight qnqnx! All you have to do is destroy the oldest institution in every social animal! Good point, I'll include and strive for it in my future debates.
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Sep 22, 2016 21:28
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Dias posted:Stop arguing with the FYAD troll, for gently caress's sake. All the education publishers will go broke making books with twice the content and still not getting paid for them.
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Sep 22, 2016 21:41
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qnqnx posted:Lol this is truly peak tumblr. I could care less about some idiots gender identity. I just know when to identify the mentally unsound and recognize that fear tends to keep you creatures in your place.
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Sep 22, 2016 22:52
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Dias posted:Stop arguing with the FYAD troll, for gently caress's sake. public schools need to be cheaper because the education budget will be frozen for the next 20 years, so we must reduce the curriculum by slashing the commie disciplines like sociology, philosophy and art, and allow any dumbass with a STEM degree in whatever to minister classes, because pedagogy is also a commie discipline. also, poor people in public schools do not belong in universities, so forcing them to choose their future potential career when they are 15 is no big deal. they'll probably drop out anyway because they will not be able to do 7 hours of daily classes because they need to go to work. I'm ok with mandatory english classes.
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Sep 23, 2016 00:15
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Crowsbeak posted:I could care less about some idiots gender identity. I just know when to identify the mentally unsound and recognize that fear tends to keep you creatures in your place. Obsession with mental sanity, insistence on fear... must be the D&D version of an internet tough guy. Fly away troll. (USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST)
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Sep 23, 2016 00:30
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qnqnx posted:Obsession with mental sanity, insistence on fear... must be the D&D version of an internet tough guy. Fly away troll. 
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Sep 23, 2016 00:31
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SexyBlindfold posted:Cool! Well that doesn't happen so let's stick with democracy instead Ok fine. This thread is already blowing up due to my Pinochet questions. Might as well empty up the last bit of case in the canister. My question is, how good of a leader was Allende? Did his policies work at all or were they lovely?
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Sep 23, 2016 00:38
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qnqnx posted:Obsession with mental sanity, insistence on fear... must be the D&D version of an internet tough guy. Fly away troll. Hey I just tell it as it is. Sorry it triggers you.
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Sep 23, 2016 01:42
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Crowsbeak posted:Hey I just tell it as it is. Sorry it triggers you. You sure like to use tumblr speech, anything to confess?
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Sep 23, 2016 02:07
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qnqnx posted:You sure like to use tumblr speech, anything to confess? Whats with you and Tumbler? Did some one demanding to be called Vir or whatever flavor of the month word own you or something?
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Sep 23, 2016 02:11
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Crowsbeak posted:Whats with you and Tumbler? Did some one demanding to be called Vir or whatever flavor of the month word own you or something? I don't know what you're talking about, but I assume you're still blabbering stupid poo poo.
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Sep 23, 2016 02:19
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Markovnikov posted:Good to see the thread getting some posts. Too bad about all the pinochetos coming out of the woodwork. I'm from the UK, my experience of Latin America is basically nil and I met her while in Asia. I will say her thing on it is much more along the lines of 'it was 40 years ago, get over it!' rather than specifically pardoning one side. I think it's much more millennial type angst and growing up with Christina as basically the avatar of left wing thought. Her parents are way more chill about things like that. That said it's also weird, she's like the only one in her family who takes public transport or went to a public university. Her parents are both second generation immigrants but I've quickly learned that's not an indication of being worse off or greatly outside social circles here, which is kind of cool compared to Europe. Also my ability to meet non yuppies is severely limited by current non existent Spanish.
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Sep 23, 2016 02:56
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Markovnikov posted:Good to see the thread getting some posts. Too bad about all the pinochetos coming out of the woodwork. Reading that was trippy as gently caress. But what MrNemo said is mostly right. Welcome change, poo poo at communication. The GF does sound extremely right wing though.
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Sep 23, 2016 02:57
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Mr. Nemo posted:Reading that was trippy as gently caress. Non directly quoted references in this thread are about to become confusing as gently caress...
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Sep 23, 2016 03:02
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El Pinocheto was a jerko.
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Sep 23, 2016 03:44
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MrNemo posted:I'm from the UK, my experience of Latin America is basically nil and I met her while in Asia. Well the things is that, everyone got away with it. Almost noone who took part in the dictatorship went to jail, and they are all starting to die off now so you'll never get justice. Also the fact that people disappeared instead of just turning up dead, that kind of fucks you up forever. It's probably what you say, Kirchner's style was grating as gently caress, but I can never stand listening to any politician talk, so. But go read the Nunca Mas or sth, I'm sure they've translated into english by now. Also also, it was thitry years ago not forty. It's not like WW2 which is something you hear your grandpa ramble about if he is even still alive. My parents spent all their youth under the dictatorship, they had classmates go missing and saw people being taken away on the streets and got stopped and checked a bunch of times. It was real. RE: Immigration, what people don't understand is that european immigration to south america was massive. By the end of it most of the population was immigrant or second gen. It's much more difficult having those kinds of integration problems when everyone you meet is also an immigrant instead of a tiny minority. Also there were lots of support institutions for each different community, like all the different hospitals and such. Finally, most of the immigration was white and christian, even if sometimes they were a different kind of christian or were swarthy italians or whatever. It was easier to assimilate to the local criollos that way. Magrov posted:public schools need to be cheaper because the education budget will be frozen for the next 20 years, so we must reduce the curriculum by slashing the commie disciplines like sociology, philosophy and art, and allow any dumbass with a STEM degree in whatever to minister classes, because pedagogy is also a commie discipline. I don't know why but neoliberal governments love implementing these sort of oriented high schools and it never works out, even tho it seems fine on paper. See: Polimodal in Argentina, whatever they have going on in Uruguay. Someone more pedagogic than me explain why they are a bad idea please.
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Sep 23, 2016 07:28
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The government is already trying to clarify that those classes will still be mandatory after the high-school reform. Which is consistent with Temer's strategy of making a ridiculous proposal, see what sticks and what doesn't, then go for a "compromise" that is what they wanted in the first place. See when they suggested fixing the retirement age to 70, then after all the flak they settled on a confortable 65 years old. This time they're going with "Ooops, our bad, we published the WRONG file by accident", which is just 
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Sep 23, 2016 20:22
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