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remusclaw posted:I still think public criticism is necessary, even if only to get some attention to the issue. You don't fix issues like this by caving in to the assholes. Them winning is not an option, because whether we do it or not, there will be people who criticize, and they will be targeted, and it is absolutely not OK to let the assholes get away with that. If mainstream attention is unattainable, then it is on the decent folk in the hobby itself to make such actions unacceptable. I'm right there with you and if this was any other industry I'd be onboard. But it's not, and all this leads to is people getting hurt. TG is too small and too insular to ever really see change. And SA has a rep that will only make things worse for anyone who tries this. If you want to hang your rear end out over the fire, be my guest, but you won't find many who will join you. Like I said, the best thing to do is to give out earnest, positive awards and just ignore people who ought not to be awarded.
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Sep 23, 2016 21:25
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Zurui posted:I know y'all are joking but this sounds like a legitimately good idea under the right leadership.  I mean, this is SA we are talking about!
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Sep 23, 2016 21:28
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Serf posted:I'm right there with you and if this was any other industry I'd be onboard. But it's not, and all this leads to is people getting hurt. TG is too small and too insular to ever really see change. And SA has a rep that will only make things worse for anyone who tries this. If you want to hang your rear end out over the fire, be my guest, but you won't find many who will join you. I think we have improved though, over the past few years. I think there is no reason to believe this hobby can't get better alongside everything else when it comes to inclusion and such things. RPGnet had a thread necro a while back from when D&D 3.0 came out that was entirely about calling out the Elf Mialee in the art as a man dressing as a woman. This was not only OK, but got a long thread filled with folk being lovely and trans-phobic. It got locked immediately on being necroed. RPGnet doesn't accept that any more. More and more the regressive people in the industry are being pushed out of the main discussion areas and into safe spaces where they can spout their idiocy without being criticized because mods there will punish criticism where they will not punish anything else. I don't accept that things cant be better because things have been getting better, even in this tiny and insular industry. remusclaw fucked around with this message at 21:34 on Sep 23, 2016 |
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Sep 23, 2016 21:31
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Wait, what? I'm gonna need links on this.
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Sep 23, 2016 21:33
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remusclaw posted:I think we have improved though, over the past few years. I think there is no reason to believe this hobby can't get better alongside everything else when it comes to inclusion and such things. RPGnet had a thread necro a while back from when D&D 3.0 came out that was entirely about calling out the Elf Mialee in the art as a man dressing as a woman. This was not only OK, but got a long thread filled with folk being lovely and trans-phobic. It got locked immediately on being necroed. RPGnet doesn't accept that any more. More and more the regressive people in the industry are being pushed out of the main discussion areas and into safe spaces where they can spout their idiocy without being criticized because mods there will punish criticism where they will not punish anything else. I don't accept that things cant be better because things have been getting better, even in this tiny and insular industry. It's great that RPGNet locked a lovely thread, but Wizards of the Coast hired a serial harasser to work on the latest iteration of the biggest tabletop game in existence and tacitly approved of his actions. So whatever change you think is happening is not what I'm seeing.
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Sep 23, 2016 21:47
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Getting better doesn't mean poo poo's all good now. Things get better or worse in increments, over time. The fact we are willing to call out the poo poo Mearls pulled is a step in the right direction. There will always be push back from regressive elements, that is no reason to fold, or just say, "well that's as far as we could go, the assholes are angry with us, better back off."
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Sep 23, 2016 21:55
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'We' proved to be a miniscule amount of people overall with literally zero result, and exposed people further to their abusers. I think it's actually pretty lovely of you to be saying that people need to be putting themselves into situations known to directly and consistently cause harm to the people who do so.
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Sep 23, 2016 22:01
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remusclaw posted:Getting better doesn't mean poo poo's all good now. Things get better or worse in increments, over time. The fact we are willing to call out the poo poo Mearls pulled is a step in the right direction. There will always be push back from regressive elements, that is no reason to fold, or just say, "well that's as far as we could go, the assholes are angry with us, better back off." The fire is there, you go ahead and hang your rear end out over it. Let me know how it goes.
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Sep 23, 2016 22:04
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neongrey posted:'We' proved to be a miniscule amount of people overall with literally zero result, and exposed people further to their abusers. I think it's actually pretty lovely of you to be saying that people need to be putting themselves into situations known to directly and consistently cause harm to the people who do so. Absolutely the victim's fault huh? We can't stop the abuser's so maybe things will be better if we just tell the victims to stop antagonizing them? Seriously? People need to nothing. People are already putting themselves out there. Abandoning them to the assholes, saying they brought it on themselves is reprehensible.
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Sep 23, 2016 22:08
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How about you go gently caress yourself, you disingenuous sack of poo poo, because the result of that 'worst game' bullshit is exposing people to their abusers, generally people with a known history of doxxing and stalking, and it's not loving victim blaming to say that's not a loving net good.
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Sep 23, 2016 22:19
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neongrey posted:How about you go gently caress yourself, you disingenuous sack of poo poo, because the result of that 'worst game' bullshit is exposing people to their abusers, generally people with a known history of doxxing and stalking, and it's not loving victim blaming to say that's not a loving net good. People are already being abused, because people are already out there, calling the shitheads out. If the shitheads win, they get to keep getting away with abuse. Is that a net good? Is this the normal you are OK with? Maybe this hobby is poo poo. remusclaw fucked around with this message at 22:25 on Sep 23, 2016 |
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Sep 23, 2016 22:23
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remusclaw posted:
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Sep 23, 2016 22:25
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I think it's worth calling out lovely behavior and talking about who's been an rear end in a top hat, who's down with rape, and who's taken advantage of people. That poo poo's absolutely fair, and I think it's great when people on this board do so. I don't think a razzie award is the best place to do that. I don't think a razzie for worst game is necessarily a good way of critiquing game design. I also don't think that you should have it lumped in with the rest of the real awards, if you want to give those out. The Nebula Awards don't have a "Worst Vanity Project" award. The Oscars don't have a "Worst Use of Lensflare" award. Because that's not what they're about. There are others who give those sorts of awards, and if you feel you need to do that, do it as its own thing, like the Razzies. If you really want to make some cool new gaming awards, that's great. Heck, I might be willing to chip in a few bucks for prizes. But if you're going to do that, focus on the best stuff in gaming, not the worst.
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Sep 23, 2016 22:45
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JackMann posted:I think it's worth calling out lovely behavior and talking about who's been an rear end in a top hat, who's down with rape, and who's taken advantage of people. That poo poo's absolutely fair, and I think it's great when people on this board do so. You are right. It normally isn't a thing that is done as part of an awards system. I started out jokey and got very caught up in defending critics and criticism, but that really isn't what awards are about, and a negative award would likely cause folks to opt out from having their works considered. I still stand by the idea of an old pineapple grenade with numbers on the frangibles.
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Sep 23, 2016 22:53
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Jesus Kenobi, I did not intend to open a  Sorry.
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Sep 23, 2016 23:16
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I think the criticism of the worst is built into clear criteria for the best. If this hypothetical award goes to great games that exhibit progressive mechanics, tone, language, and art, then "Why isn't my game on the list of nominees?" kinda answers itself.
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Sep 23, 2016 23:23
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remusclaw posted:People are already being abused, because people are already out there, calling the shitheads out. If the shitheads win, they get to keep getting away with abuse. Is that a net good? Is this the normal you are OK with? Maybe this hobby is poo poo. People have been pointing out that Zak S to name a popular example is a garbage human being for literal years now and the end result of all this is his name in the credits of Dungeons & Dragons and multiple ENnie awards to his name. I'm pretty sure it isn't some cowardly act of victim blaming to suggest that a lovely forums award show likely wouldn't have any greater impact or that it would be more likely to backfire horribly, if for no other reason than nobody who doesn't already post on Something Awful gives a poo poo about Something Awful.
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Sep 23, 2016 23:31
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There are other forums dedicated to caring about what happens at Something Awful. Or did something sensitive and encyclopedia dramatica finally die?
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Sep 23, 2016 23:36
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Also: isn't ENWorld pretty much based on gaming xenophobia?
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Sep 23, 2016 23:38
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Kai Tave posted:People have been pointing out that Zak S to name a popular example is a garbage human being for literal years now and the end result of all this is his name in the credits of Dungeons & Dragons and multiple ENnie awards to his name. I'm pretty sure it isn't some cowardly act of victim blaming to suggest that a lovely forums award show likely wouldn't have any greater impact or that it would be more likely to backfire horribly, if for no other reason than nobody who doesn't already post on Something Awful gives a poo poo about Something Awful. It also had the end result of my not reading his blog anymore, because I did when I was still into OSR stuff. It also made me avoid buying things from him. This was a positive for me, it is what I ask for from criticism. But obviously I am not the one suffering from the hate because I am not out there writing critical screeds. But those people are out there, and I want to be supportive of them, because they are the people trying to better things. On the other hand, you make a relatively decent argument for why no one would care about an SA award good or bad.
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Sep 23, 2016 23:39
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Serf posted:This isn't the same thing as having anonymous followers send death threats and post critics' addresses tho.
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Sep 23, 2016 23:43
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Huh. Well ok that's certainly all terrible and this hobby is poo poo, but there's still a gaping vacancy where a respectable award could fit. I wouldn't know about many actually good games without this sub-forum. If I had to rely on ENWorld, the ENies, Origins, or Wil Wheaton I'f be aware of precisely zero good things happening.
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Sep 24, 2016 00:29
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Yeah. Regardless of the criticism debate, I think the idea of making our own awards could be pretty neat.
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Sep 24, 2016 00:58
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Terrible Opinions posted:No clearly it's worse to lure someone to an event by framing it as a publicity stunt with fake fighting and then giving them the sort of beating that will concuss and potentially permanently physically disable them, than to have people send twitter death threats. Nah.
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Sep 24, 2016 01:18
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I feel like the talk in this thread has exposed a serious underlying problem with the concept of a worst product award voted on by TG posters. Everyone seems to be talking like people such as Zak would get the award, but even people here have always acknowledged that his actual output isn't itself terrible (I don't know personally, I haven't bothered to check it out, but I've seen people here comment that it has at least some value in the gaming material itself). That makes it seem like the assumption is the award will go to the shittiest person, not the shittiest product - which seems to be exactly the kind of dumb trolling that got SA its reputation in the first place.
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Sep 24, 2016 01:21
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Zurui posted:I know y'all are joking but this sounds like a legitimately good idea under the right leadership. The Games Workshop Memorial Award For True Awfulness
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Sep 24, 2016 01:30
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thefakenews posted:I feel like the talk in this thread has exposed a serious underlying problem with the concept of a worst product award voted on by TG posters. Everyone seems to be talking like people such as Zak would get the award, but even people here have always acknowledged that his actual output isn't itself terrible (I don't know personally, I haven't bothered to check it out, but I've seen people here comment that it has at least some value in the gaming material itself). That makes it seem like the assumption is the award will go to the shittiest person, not the shittiest product - which seems to be exactly the kind of dumb trolling that got SA its reputation in the first place. There's other people in the same family of shitfuckers who do the same kind of poo poo, who do make lovely products. Don't kid yourself into thinking he's the only one.
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Sep 24, 2016 01:32
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neongrey posted:There's other people in the same family of shitfuckers who do the same kind of poo poo, who do make lovely products. Don't kid yourself into thinking he's the only one. I know there are lovely people making lovely products, if people had been using Venger Satanis as an example I wouldn't say anything. I just think there's a real chance that people would vote the person they think is the biggest arsehole, rather than the arsehole who makes the worst product. Edit: Basically the award becoming a de facto Most Terrible Person award would cause even more blowback than a Most Terrible Product award. thefakenews fucked around with this message at 02:06 on Sep 24, 2016 |
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Sep 24, 2016 01:40
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You know, I think that giving out something awful awards is not practical in the future if all it does is lead to weird and angry arguments about old, well-established and well-justified hatreds over and over. It just sounds painful for everyone involved Speaking of weird and painful... I'm not sure how I feel about the kickstarter that just launched for a 7th Sea video game rpg. On one hand, I can see the cross-media potential of the setting, but on the other what I see of the game does not give me much optimism for its quality
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Sep 24, 2016 02:14
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I think we have far too much baggage as an institution to be handing out "awards" that would be as biased as ENWorld being a fluffer for d20.
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Sep 24, 2016 02:16
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Imagine four awards at the edge of a cliff GOON PROJECT
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Sep 24, 2016 02:41
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Nuns with Guns posted:Speaking of weird and painful... I'm not sure how I feel about the kickstarter that just launched for a 7th Sea video game rpg. On one hand, I can see the cross-media potential of the setting, but on the other what I see of the game does not give me much optimism for its quality A STREET. THERE IS A SHIP IN THE DISTANCE AND SOME FOG OR SOMETHING -- IT IS PROBLY DARK. ISH. Our hero, TROLOLO ZIMA, has been ensnared by the temptress Fate Witch, ZANZA ZANZANAZANANA. Glowing runes pulse and throb as they entwine like snakes made of the jumbled letters from a thousand books of prophecy. TROLOLO What zorcery is zis? I zeek only the Zarcophagus! ZANZA Silence fool! You do not know what you seek, and who else seeks it! TROLOLO I would be happy to listen, but you zee, these bonds are zo ... uncomfortable. Perhaps if you could come over here... ZANZA Wretch! I should leave you here, but evil stalks the land, so I must abandon my stance of understandable suspicion and become complicit and compliant for plot and wish fulfillment purposes.
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Sep 24, 2016 03:17
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homullus posted:A STREET. THERE IS A SHIP IN THE DISTANCE AND SOME FOG OR SOMETHING -- IT IS PROBLY DARK. ISH.
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Sep 24, 2016 04:33
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gradenko_2000 posted:I think we have far too much baggage as an institution to be handing out "awards" that would be as biased as ENWorld being a fluffer for d20. All award ceremonies are biased. The question is whether or not their results are interesting and worth exploring. Calling out bad games like Beast is just, frankly, not very interesting, IMO. Neither is handwringing about how the RPG industry is the worst and so there's no point in doing anything ever because phantom boogeyman shitlords will emerge from the monitor to pee on your keyboard or something. I understand some people may not want to involve themselves based on how some people react to any sort of opinion, but you can just... not be involved, in that case. Anyway, I think it might be interesting to try. It doesn't have to be a huge deal, just something fun to explore and give some positive feedback to the community.
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Sep 24, 2016 12:37
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thefakenews posted:Edit: Basically the award becoming a de facto Most Terrible Person award would cause even more blowback than a Most Terrible Product award. Although if you gave Venger Satanis an "Actual Devil Wizard" award he probably wouldn't know you were making fun of him. If we had awards for...hold on, this is going to blow your loving minds...products we like, I don't think it would be all that biased in any way besides fostering new and interesting designs. (And honestly, not even then. There are a number of popular games on these boards that are just well made without containing novel mechanics.)
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Sep 24, 2016 16:03
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If I may weigh in with a data point; Over in the sports forums, we have an annual "Ben Roethlisberger Douchebag of the Year" award, in which footballish goons nominate the worst of the american football world's bad actors and then, by process of elimination tournament-style, fairly debate and determine which was the bjggest douchebag. This year with the usual master of ceremonies getting married, starting a buisiness, and then going AWOL, I wound up running the voting through most of the procedures. http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3776557 I think the whole affair is somewhat cathartic, and the goons generally manage to avoid serious fights about who is the worst, so it's ok. In the past, one or two of the "winners" have responded to tweets about their bestowed honor... but for the most part nobody notices or gives a poo poo about what happens on some insignificant paywalled subforum. If you think there are bad actors in TG, you should see what bad football people get up to, yeesh. But the rules of the douchebag contest help to keep things under control; we focus on douchebaggery that went unpunished, so for example a player who goes to jail for murder does not qualify. Most participants also prefer not to get into the "douchebaggery vs. evil" comparisons, thankfully. Anyway my point is, helldumping on outsiders isn't necessarily hazardous, but it's also pretty inconsequential.
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Sep 24, 2016 17:09
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I guess I just assumed an award (good or bad) would go to a product, not a person.
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Sep 24, 2016 17:19
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In light of the acrimony that arises over precisely what kind and degree of garbage person Zak is, I don't think the illustrious SATG body can handle such an award.
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Sep 24, 2016 17:30
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I'm thinking about it and I think Zak is actually a unique issue. Zak S. is a known serial stalker with a posse. When people have called out this stalker, he has stalked them. Which is terrible, but also somewhat predictable. Are there any other known stalkers (with or without posses) in the TG industry? If not, I think it's probably not fair to conflate Zak with the industry and claim that any attempt at criticism of TG's products or people will inevitably result in the critic being stalked and harassed. At least, not to a degree beyond what faces critics in other industries; film, art, music, whatever. I also think it's unlikely an SA TG award for the best TGs would have any impact or recognition beyond the boundaries of this forum. This is a paywalled forum of an obscure website with what, 50 to 100 active users? We're very very small potatoes. For the same reason, though, I think that could make it fairly fun, easy to do, and harmless. If TG wants to make a list of the best games each year, that's helpful to other TG posters looking for a list of the best games, right? I mean, I already just go to BGG and filter for top games or whatever, but folks do ask in various threads "hey what'd be a good game for x, y, and z" and get mostly useful answers, so there's a solid base of knowledge here that could be put to use. It's also fun to vote on stuff. Just, let's not pretend like anyone else will care, and as long as we avoid it becoming grogs.txt, helldump, or be about the one specific serial stalker in the TG industry we all know about, I don't think there's any appreciable personal risk to involved parties.
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Sep 24, 2016 17:45
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Serf posted:Like I said, the best thing to do is to give out earnest, positive awards and just ignore people who ought not to be awarded. Do this. We need some categories and guidelines on what works are allowed in the categories. And we need a name and a logo. I propose we take the nomination and voting rules from the Hugos. (Their new anti-slate nomination rules, that is.) These are well-hashed out and work in the niche and fractious industry that is "science fiction and fantasy publishing". inklesspen fucked around with this message at 18:28 on Sep 24, 2016 |
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