|
Strategic Tea posted:It lets them shut down the relays and shoot everyone like fish in a barrel. It's also really dumb that they actually GET the Citadel to Earth in ME 3 (for what reason again?) and still don't shut down the relays, not to mention that it's their tech and they should've been able to shut down relays at will tbh although that would finish the story pretty quickly. What annoys me the most ultimately about the overarching plot is that -what must be a trope- whole "we don't believe you about the reapers" stuff everyone puts you through, there's not even a satisfying payoff to that. Should've gone with guncam footage on the Normandy and some actual preparation but still failing because of bureaucracy or something, not to mention doing something interesting at the end like a choice between sacrificing Earth to save X or something. Some of you hating on Karpishyn: I wish the ending he wrote was real b/c what we got now, well...
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2016 10:32
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 29, 2024 17:12 |
|
|
Nielsen posted:
Hey, if he managed to work that Dark Energy nonsense into the plot, then Mass Effect 2 would be slightly relevant! For precisely one conversation with Tali in a forty hour game.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2016 18:15
|
|
|
sassassin posted:How is it a subplot? That was a Freudian slip, but I think it indicates how throwaway the actual "main" plot is. I think Bioware's best overall storyline was the Baldur's Gate series. Not the line by line writing, which is kind of cringeworthy post-high school or the characters(Minsc would've been a funny one off joke, but as an party member...), but the actual broad storyline. And the story isn't about defeating some huge crisis that's going to destroy the world. Bioware can do interesting stories, I'm sure. Mass Effect had a really interesting setup with the unexpected ascendancy of humanity. Ditto with Dragon Age taking place in a region that had only recently become independent. But they really don't seem to care about the most interesting parts of their settings.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2016 18:37
|
|
|
I think a lot of what I didn't like about the Mass Effect 3 story was the focus on Earth. Humanity isn't all that important to the galaxy; the humans aren't the most populous species, they aren't the military might, they aren't the galactic intelligence agency, they aren't the sexy blue chicks. Why should the military power of the galaxy stop defending their home world to save a species that they have a rocky past with at best? They wouldn't. The fact that the Citadel moving to Earth doesn't make sense plot wise (even less sense technologically) only conveys how desperate BioWare was at trying to connect players with the invasion. The reason that the Collector plot works in ME2 is because it's a framework for the real story: the characters. I think the strength of the first game was in creating a setting that felt real and a sense that you were exploring it. The second game really fleshed it out, and the third game had... They did a real nice job of torching the setting.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2016 18:52
|
|
|
Nielsen posted:It's also really dumb that they actually GET the Citadel to Earth in ME 3 (for what reason again?) and still don't shut down the relays, not to mention that it's their tech and they should've been able to shut down relays at will tbh although that would finish the story pretty quickly. Tossing out previous plots for crappy action movie cliches was the biggest sin of ME3's overall plot before the ending. It could have gone so many places with what was written, but they decided that pretending to appeal to newbies at the eleventh hour was the best idea and it all came apart even before the Starchild showed up.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2016 19:05
|
|
|
The Collectors plot is good and the kind of story Mass Effect should have stuck with, releasing a new sort-of-Reapers-related adventure every couple of years until the franchise died a natural death. In summation, Mass Effect 3 is garbage.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2016 20:22
|
|
|
prometheusbound2 posted:That was a Freudian slip, but I think it indicates how throwaway the actual "main" plot is. It's not throwaway. There were some bad dudes and I gathered my team and we stopped them. There was an explosion and apart from the bodies I left behind everything worked out nicely. gg ez
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2016 20:24
|
|
|
wookieepelt posted:I think a lot of what I didn't like about the Mass Effect 3 story was the focus on Earth. Humanity isn't all that important to the galaxy; the humans aren't the most populous species, they aren't the military might, they aren't the galactic intelligence agency, they aren't the sexy blue chicks. Why should the military power of the galaxy stop defending their home world to save a species that they have a rocky past with at best? They wouldn't. The fact that the Citadel moving to Earth doesn't make sense plot wise (even less sense technologically) only conveys how desperate BioWare was at trying to connect players with the invasion. I completely agree with this. I think one of the things that makes the Mass Effect universe so distinctive (despite it being a mash-up of all sorts of other sci-fi) is the fact that humanity as a race is rarely at the front of the story. You're exploring alien worlds and alien societies and humanity is mostly defined by its relationships to the other races. We don't get a particularly in-depth picture of colony life, we see very little of the Systems Alliance and we never see Earth. But the unfortunate consequence of that is that the whole focus on TAKE EARTH BACK falls flat in the third game, especially since it's so nonsensical. Nobody ever provides a convincing reason why we need to throw the combined forces of the galaxy at a homeworld that's already fallen rather than, say, Palaven, or Thessia, or the goddamn Citadel, the symbolic heart of the entire galaxy. The more I think about it, the more I wish ME3 had been a desperate race against time to unite the galaxy and build the plot device before the Reapers reach the Citadel, where all those minor characters you know and love are and which has already been established as a central control for the relay network. But no, OORAH gotta take back Earth, Anderson was born in London, you know
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2016 21:01
|
|
|
The collectors thing was forgettable but it didn't have starchild so hey it wins the special olympics.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2016 21:01
|
|
|
Geostomp posted:Tossing out previous plots for crappy action movie cliches was the biggest sin of ME3's overall plot before the ending. It could have gone so many places with what was written, but they decided that pretending to appeal to newbies at the eleventh hour was the best idea and it all came apart even before the Starchild showed up. Yeah agreed, which is why what people say like:"it was good for 95% before the ending" is something I don't agree with. Pretty much all of the ME 3 sidequests were a joke with no context, all fetchquests with minimal effort (rings of alune etc. that stuff) Some of the personal quests had some nice moments but overall it's the game I really replayed only once, and didn't even finish I think because it's just the worst in the series imo. Which was also why the backlash to the backlash was infuriating to watch "entitled" etc. lol no the game took a big dump over what they had previously established, I wouldn't even say it was a betrayal to the people playing but to their own universe tbh, a real waste. Also, ME:A looks human centric again and I worry for the game if they're going to take over all of Dragon Age Inquisition's systems tbh... which was very light on meaningful content. Witcher 3 spoils us with good writing and well made quests.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2016 21:02
|
|
|
Gato posted:the whole focus on TAKE EARTH BACK falls flat in the third game You understand this was only in the marketing, right?
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2016 21:17
|
|
|
...No, because it's the literal climax of the series?
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2016 21:32
|
|
|
The final mission is Shepard getting onto the Citadel so they can open it up, dock the Crucible and end the Reaper War. At no point is there an attempt to liberate Earth, except as part of saving the galaxy as a whole.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2016 21:51
|
|
|
That's a  disingenuous assertion if I've ever heard one. The prospect of saving Earth takes a massive amount of focus and spotlight throughout the game, featuring heavily as the introduction and the ending; the very first ten minutes of the game impress upon the player, through narrative and theme, that Earth being overtaken is the "conflict" of the story that you are meant to resolve. Consequently, the troops and allies you gather are expressedly intended to help liberate Earth in addition to to building the Crucible (found right next to Earth, natch). At bare minimum, fighting for your home planet is presented at least as importantly as building the Crucible.This is all in-game, not in the marketing. You could miss the entire press blitz for the game and still come away with the impression that they made Earth a big focus, especially compared to the first two games, as a transparent imitation of other shooter-types on the market.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2016 22:12
|
|
|
Nielsen posted:Yeah agreed, which is why what people say like:"it was good for 95% before the ending" is something I don't agree with. Pretty much all of the ME 3 sidequests were a joke with no context, all fetchquests with minimal effort (rings of alune etc. that stuff) Also agreed. ME3 had a terrible plot glued together from contrivances like the Crucible (never before mentioned superweapon with no clear function that popped up in humanity's backyard right as it was needed), Cerberus going Space-Cobra, and the Reapers becoming all but invincible, yet fighting like idiots and forgetting the target that would make any resistance completely futile just to allow the plot to happen. This isn't some hardcore nerd nitpicking, it's just terrible writing from any perspective before you even add in the wet fart of a final act and it's clumsy retcons, pretentious navel gazing, literal deus ex machina. BrianWilly posted:That's a Yup. You can't ignore that they really tried to force Earth to the forefront despite it never being relevant before and doing nothing to make us care about it beyond simply being Earth. They could have fixed that by giving us scenes on the planet beforehand or even letting us use it as a base for an act before the invasion so we get a little attached, but nope. Just "care about it because it's Earth" all the way through. Just like that kid they invented and blew up.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2016 22:26
|
|
|
BrianWilly posted:That's a Welcome to the Mass Effect 3 thread
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2016 22:29
|
|
|
I've been here forever, damnit!  Just not lately!
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2016 22:33
|
|
|
Geostomp posted:Yup. You can't ignore that they really tried to force Earth to the forefront despite it never being relevant before and doing nothing to make us care about it beyond simply being Earth. They could have fixed that by giving us scenes on the planet beforehand or even letting us use it as a base for an act before the invasion so we get a little attached, but nope. Just "care about it because it's Earth" all the way through. Just like that kid they invented and blew up. My dream ME3 would have had the first few acts split between Earth and the Citadel as hubs, with you spectreing around trying to prepare while system after system goes dark and everyone starts to panic. Then you can torch the planet and have a desperate last scramble (and ideally explain at some point why ME1 wasn't a waste of time)
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2016 22:53
|
|
|
Lt. Danger posted:You understand this was only in the marketing, right? Lt. Danger posted:The final mission is Shepard getting onto the Citadel so they can open it up, dock the Crucible and end the Reaper War. Yeah, no. Shepard spends the entire game attempting to gather a fleet with the express objective of attacking Earth. S/he goes to the turians to get said fleet, then the krogan in order to take the pressure off the turians, then the quarians to further reinforce the fleet. S/he spends the entire game in communication with Anderson reassuring him that they are in fact going to retake Earth, and spends the entire game overcoming the (reasonable) objections of various aliens to attacking Earth. The inexplicable relocation of the Citadel only comes to light after Shepard takes down the Cerberus headquarters, and I can't remember the precise timing but I'm fairly sure Shepard only finds out about it after the fleet has been launched for Earth. Likewise, it only becomes apparent that the Crucible needs the Citadel to function round about the same time.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2016 23:06
|
|
|
Gato posted:The inexplicable relocation of the Citadel only comes to light after Shepard takes down the Cerberus headquarters, and I can't remember the precise timing but I'm fairly sure Shepard only finds out about it after the fleet has been launched for Earth. Likewise, it only becomes apparent that the Crucible needs the Citadel to function round about the same time. The game presents the Cerberus Station mission as happening immediately after you go to Cerberus, with the express point that you move directly for the planet after wrapping up that Scrappy Doo situation that is Kai Leng. Shepard learns it from the Prothean VI itself just before Scrappy comes in, so your assertions are still correct.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2016 23:50
|
|
|
BrianWilly posted:That's a No, the three focuses of the plot are the genophage, the geth and Cerberus. The central conflict is the Reaper invasion of the galaxy and the existential angst (Titanomachy) that they represent. Shepard's goal throughout the game, as given by Hackett and Anderson, is to rally galactic support for the Crucible project, which the Alliance remnants are constructing in a secret location. War Assets (including engineers and scientists) are a numerical representation of support for that project. Anderson is the one fighting to "take back Earth", and the arc of the dialogues between him and Shepard is that while Shepard would personally very much like to fight to save Earth, their actual mission to unite the galaxy against the Reapers is far more important. Gato posted:The inexplicable relocation of the Citadel only comes to light after Shepard takes down the Cerberus headquarters, and I can't remember the precise timing but I'm fairly sure Shepard only finds out about it after the fleet has been launched for Earth. Likewise, it only becomes apparent that the Crucible needs the Citadel to function round about the same time. No. The Illusive Man hacks Vendetta, figures out where the Catalyst is, goes to the Citadel and leaks that he knows about the Catalyst to the Reapers. The Reapers seize control of the Citadel and bring it to Earth, where the bulk of their forces are, so they can protect it. Shepard finds this out during the assault on Cerberus HQ as part of an attempt to find out what the Catalyst is from Cerberus. The fleets haven't launched for anywhere yet, since they still haven't finished the Crucible. They'll move to fight the Reapers (who are at Earth) because the Crucible's now too obvious to hide any longer. The confusion seems to be that because the majority of Reapers are on Earth, any attack on the Reapers involves an attack on the Earth occupation. I suppose that yes, saving the galaxy includes also saving Earth, but Earth is still not the focus of the game. I can't see how we can say that when far more time is spent on resolving the issues of the krogan, turians, asari, geth and quarians. Ultimately the final resolution of the conflict is not Shepard telling the Reapers to get the hell off our planet, but Shepard and the Catalyst trying to find a permanent resolution to intergenerational conflict while galactic forces stalemate/die gloriously against the Reapers outside. Earth just isn't important.
|
|
#
?
Sep 26, 2016 00:14
|
|
|
Mass Effect 3: No
|
|
#
?
Sep 26, 2016 00:20
|
|
|
Of all the homeworlds where Shepard fights, Earth is the only one where the decisive battle can take place. For that reason alone the story frames it as the most important place in the galaxy.
|
|
#
?
Sep 26, 2016 00:24
|
|
Arcsquad12 posted:Hey, if he managed to work that Dark Energy nonsense into the plot, then Mass Effect 2 would be slightly relevant! For precisely one conversation with Tali in a forty hour game. And the conversation with Parasini, and Veetor's mention of it (and Okeer too, I think), and...
|
|
|
#
?
Sep 26, 2016 00:49
|
|
|
Geostomp posted:Tossing out previous plots for crappy action movie cliches This is exactly what I meant. Gato posted:I completely agree with this. I think one of the things that makes the Mass Effect universe so distinctive (despite it being a mash-up of all sorts of other sci-fi) is the fact that humanity as a race is rarely at the front of the story. You're exploring alien worlds and alien societies and humanity is mostly defined by its relationships to the other races. We don't get a particularly in-depth picture of colony life, we see very little of the Systems Alliance and we never see Earth. But the unfortunate consequence of that is that the whole focus on TAKE EARTH BACK falls flat in the third game, especially since it's so nonsensical. Nobody ever provides a convincing reason why we need to throw the combined forces of the galaxy at a homeworld that's already fallen rather than, say, Palaven, or Thessia, or the goddamn Citadel, the symbolic heart of the entire galaxy. I had always thought the race against time would be how the third game was set up, but was very disappointed with what we got. I think steering away from earth the while franchise was a good move that they threw away in the end. I was more invested in the Citadel than any generic set from earth in ME3. I still love the series, even ME3, but what potential they had was pissed away for cliche action movie sequences before ruining the setting so bad that they literally had to move to a new galaxy. It's just a shame.
|
|
#
?
Sep 26, 2016 01:01
|
|
|
wookieepelt posted:This is exactly what I meant. In my personal preferred game, I'd have loved to not have the Reapers invade at all. Instead, some stronger than normal Reaper minions get through ahead of their masters and begin causing severe damage, maybe with a couple Destroyer-class enemies around. Let them do significant enough amounts of damage to make it clear to everyone that the Reapers are coming and this horror is just a taste of what is to come. Really make it clear that the Reapers in full are a force that simply could not be defeated as the galaxy is without them showing up in person. The plot could be a race against time to search for something that could prevent the full invasion with Liara's Shadow Broker contacts giving you leads. The final confrontation could be deploying a measure right at the opening of the Citadel Relay. If you played your cards right, you could effectively bluff the Reapers into abandoning the Milky Way with the threat of MAD or something. That would give them some required "epic" scenes to end the series while keeping the setting intact for other stories and be overall more fitting than cliche war stories.
|
|
#
?
Sep 26, 2016 01:14
|
|
|
I still think covering the entire "genocide by omnicidal alien lobster ships" in a single game was also a bad idea, especially after Vigil explained that the Prothean extinction took centuries to complete. The Reaper War in Mass Effect 3 is finished in under a year, and it is considered the greatest military conflict in Galactic History. Even Dragon Age Origins, despite having it's Blight be defeated in a year, took note of that fact and addressed it, stating that the Blight had been defeated before it had even begun. Of course, then Dragon Age proceeded to do dumb poo poo in its second installment.
|
|
#
?
Sep 26, 2016 02:17
|
|
|
Well, most of a reaping would probably be just rote going around to planets and cleaning up, the exciting bit comes at the start and is the bit shown in the game, where people still have things like weapons and communications and try to fight them off. Based on ME1 that bit would actually normally be over much more quickly because they'd cut off the heads of every spacefaring race in the galaxy instantly by taking the citadel, but they decided not to do that this time.
|
|
#
?
Sep 26, 2016 02:25
|
|
|
sassassin posted:The Collectors plot is good and the kind of story Mass Effect should have stuck with, releasing a new sort-of-Reapers-related adventure every couple of years until the franchise died a natural death. a g..good sassassin post?!?!?! 
|
|
#
?
Sep 26, 2016 02:36
|
|
|
Apparently the game's release date has been leaked and it's March 21st. The reason why is someone found the release info for the Art of Mass Effect Andromeda book, and it's coming out March 21st, and supposedly Bioware releases art books on the same day as their games. I saw this here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOyGdFyDca4
|
|
#
?
Sep 26, 2016 03:13
|
|
|
Much as this thread loves to point out ME3's flaws, humanity suddenly being super special is a sin that began in ME2, both in the main plot and in Mordin's loyalty mission.
|
|
#
?
Sep 26, 2016 04:21
|
|
|
Hedrigall posted:Apparently the game's release date has been leaked and it's March 21st. The reason why is someone found the release info for the Art of Mass Effect Andromeda book, and it's coming out March 21st, and supposedly Bioware releases art books on the same day as their games. I'm guessing it might be a launch game for the NX. (In addition to being on PS4/Xbone.)
|
|
#
?
Sep 26, 2016 04:28
|
|
|
Arcsquad12 posted:True enough. I think another reason is because there just isn't another game series out there that is trying to create a science fiction game world similar to Mass Effect. Free roaming space opera RPG 3rd Person shooters are nonexistent outside of Mass Effect, so the series fills a niche that happens to be quite big. I would love to see some more games approach RPGs with the oldschool science fiction trappings Mass Effect 1 promoted, but they just don't exist. There's The Technomancer. Unfortunately, it's not fun to play.
|
|
#
?
Sep 26, 2016 06:14
|
|
|
Geniasis posted:Much as this thread loves to point out ME3's flaws, humanity suddenly being super special is a sin that began in ME2, both in the main plot and in Mordin's loyalty mission. There's only one reason they would need a collecting ship this big...
|
|
#
?
Sep 26, 2016 08:08
|
|
|
Hedrigall posted:Apparently the game's release date has been leaked and it's March 21st. The reason why is someone found the release info for the Art of Mass Effect Andromeda book, and it's coming out March 21st, and supposedly Bioware releases art books on the same day as their games. Why do people feel the need to make youtube vids about these minor things? is it just hoping for those sweet  from ads?
|
|
#
?
Sep 26, 2016 10:06
|
|
|
Lt. Danger posted:No. The Illusive Man hacks Vendetta, figures out where the Catalyst is, goes to the Citadel and leaks that he knows about the Catalyst to the Reapers. The Reapers seize control of the Citadel and bring it to Earth, where the bulk of their forces are, so they can protect it. Shepard finds this out during the assault on Cerberus HQ as part of an attempt to find out what the Catalyst is from Cerberus. The fleets haven't launched for anywhere yet, since they still haven't finished the Crucible. They'll move to fight the Reapers (who are at Earth) because the Crucible's now too obvious to hide any longer. We're talking at cross purposes here. Yes, the Crucible has to go to Earth because the Citadel is there. The main issue with that is: why does the Citadel need to be above Earth in the first place? ME1 establishes that if the Reapers take the Citadel, it's game over because they have control of the relay network. Even if we leave that plot point aside, why do the Reapers need to concentrate their forces over Earth rather than anywhere else, such as around the recently conquered heart of galactic society? You can argue it's because humans are special, but that's speculative - I'm pretty sure it's never justified in-story. The Crucible itself acts through the relay network - it can presumably be fired wherever the Catalyst happens to be. The Citadel is moved as a narrative justification for having the final level on Earth. (If you want to be pedantic, yes, the final 15 minutes of the game happen on the Citadel. But it's barely recognisable as such, it has no connection to the Citadel we've previously visited - it's just a name given to The Reaper Dimension. Contrast ME1, where the finale is in the ever-familiar Council Chambers.)
|
|
#
?
Sep 26, 2016 10:17
|
|
|
Gato posted:We're talking at cross purposes here. Yes, the Crucible has to go to Earth because the Citadel is there. The main issue with that is: why does the Citadel need to be above Earth in the first place? ME1 establishes that if the Reapers take the Citadel, it's game over because they have control of the relay network. Even if we leave that plot point aside, why do the Reapers need to concentrate their forces over Earth rather than anywhere else, such as around the recently conquered heart of galactic society? You can argue it's because humans are special, but that's speculative - I'm pretty sure it's never justified in-story. The Crucible itself acts through the relay network - it can presumably be fired wherever the Catalyst happens to be. The Reapers are on Earth because (thanks to Shepard) they have chosen humans as the dominant race of the cycle, meaning they need to harvest as many humans as possible in order to make the next Reaper. As mentioned, the Reapers selecting humanity for ascension is something that happened in ME2, as a result of events in ME1. Again, Earth is the focus for about 3 hours of the game, split across the beginning and the end. The rest of the game is set on other worlds with goals of resolving the galaxy's big long-standing conflicts. There's an arc about curing the genophage, an arc about ending the geth-quarian war, an arc about stopping the human supremacists once and for all - and smaller subplots about how the turians handle the galactic crisis and the collapse of asari hegemony. There's a spotlight mission for each of your squadmates from ME2. The unifying plot thread is the Crucible project, the united galaxy's plan to stop the Reapers, and milestones in the game are linked to milestones in the Crucible project (e.g. halfway through the game, Hackett tells you the Crucible is 50% complete). Shepard's explicit goal from Hackett and Anderson is to gather support for the Crucible by doing favours for the aliens. Outside of Anderson's dialogues, Earth stops being mentioned after Menae, in which Shepard convinces the Primarch to abandon Palaven by saying they had to abandon Earth as well. It seems like your objection is that Earth is in the game at all?
|
|
#
?
Sep 26, 2016 11:23
|
|
|
Okay, now why have they not decided to hole up in its original location, chosen for its ease of defense. More importantly, why are they not using its ability to control the Relay network for the instant "I win" button potential? Hell, since the program that apparently controls them is housed in on the Citadel, why did they ever need the Keepers to open the doorway to begin with? Man, I know you like the game and all, but it's been long established that the writing just was not good or well thought out. Especially anything involving the ending and its retcons for "art".
|
|
#
?
Sep 26, 2016 11:34
|
|
|
The bulk of the Reapers are on Earth to harvest humans. I suppose they could have moved Earth to the Citadel and its nebula? Sounds difficult. I don't think there's any particular defensive advantage there. The Protheans sabotaged the Citadel so that it no longer properly responds to Reaper commands. The Keepers are part of the mechanism - organic machines, like Grunt or Miranda. The Catalyst isn't directly integrated into the Citadel. At this point we're looking for reasons to be mad at the game, when the original argument was "ME3 makes everything about Earth". It doesn't. ""art""
|
|
#
?
Sep 26, 2016 12:32
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 29, 2024 17:12 |
|
|
Charlie Mopps posted:Why do people feel the need to make youtube vids about these minor things? is it just hoping for those sweet 100% yes
|
|
#
?
Sep 26, 2016 12:41
|
|