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Kurzon posted:Batman is a silly-arse character who is written mostly by sheltered white people who know little about crime, policing, government, and corporations; and their work in turn is controlled tightly by corporate bigwigs whose concerns are sustaining sales and a larger franchise. Batman is not Animal Farm. He is not written to teach us anything. Unintended messages in art are not worth exploring? Doesn't it say something to you that Batman is written through these distorted lenses and is generally well regarded as a hero? KVeezy3 fucked around with this message at 22:32 on Sep 24, 2016 |
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Sep 24, 2016 22:29
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Kurzon posted:But the only insight you will gain is the nature of the author's worldview. What we were discussing was someone's selection of a particular version of a character as being 'good,' which is inherently tied to a particular notion, in the real world, of what is good. It would only be about merely gaining insight into the nature of the author's worldview if we were blindly accepting the author's worldview as to what is good. We're not treating this like Animal Farm, where we're being asked to trust that a depicted relationship is authentically allegorical to the real world. Instead, we're discussing how a depiction relates to the real world, with our philosophical guidelines being derived from the real world, not the work. That this depiction is from mass-market silly books and blockbusters make this more valuable, because we're not taking the ivory tower position of only caring about the moral position of 'elite' works. Sir Kodiak fucked around with this message at 22:46 on Sep 24, 2016 |
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Sep 24, 2016 22:33
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Drifter posted:a loaded term was being used to paint a hero like Batman as some evil aristocrat Dog, he lives in a stately manor. With his manservant.
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Sep 24, 2016 22:58
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Kurzon posted:Batman is a silly-arse character who is written mostly by sheltered white people who know little about crime, policing, government, and corporations; and their work in turn is controlled tightly by corporate bigwigs whose concerns are sustaining sales and a larger franchise. Batman is not Animal Farm. He is not written to teach us anything.
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Sep 24, 2016 23:02
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Dog, he lives in a stately manor. With his manservant. This is the fundamental issue with good aristocrats. Cumberbatch's character didn't actually do a thing to help Solomon in 12 Years a Slave. The best he could offer is a 'comfortable' slavery, because he was never going to be the one to fix anything for Solomon, and when it got hard he cut him loose to a far worse fate.
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Sep 24, 2016 23:06
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Kurzon posted:Batman is a silly-arse character who is written mostly by sheltered white people who know little about crime, policing, government, and corporations; and their work in turn is controlled tightly by corporate bigwigs whose concerns are sustaining sales and a larger franchise. Batman is not Animal Farm. He is not written to teach us anything. I'm morbidly curious as to how you read Animal Farm
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Sep 25, 2016 02:31
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All fiction is Animal Farm. Some is just more Animal Farm than others.
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Sep 25, 2016 02:39
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Would Batman side with Napoleon or Snowball?
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Sep 25, 2016 02:41
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Chairman Capone posted:Would Batman side with Napoleon or Snowball? Since Batman is America, he'd mostly be working to discredit both, pleased at Snowballs demise, and then continue working to fund terrorist groups operating in neighboring farms as well as propping up other pigs who would be interchangeable with Napoleon except they say the right things. Then at night he'd beat up criminals in Gotham.
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Sep 25, 2016 02:47
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Martman posted:All fiction is Animal Farm. Some is just more Animal Farm than others. It's funny cause it's true
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Sep 25, 2016 02:53
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Drifter posted:Fair enough, I'll grant you most of what you say, but it turned into a discussion of semantics when a loaded term was being used to paint a hero like Batman as some evil aristocrat giggling over the downtrodden masses. In fact, his despair is that they do not; that instead of his noblesse oblige uplifting the people of his fiefdom, there are instead few "good men left."
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Sep 25, 2016 05:57
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Especially your batman. My Batman isn't a superhero, merely a man of modest means who is a bat enthusiast. He leads grassroots efforts to conserve bat populations and doesn't actively fight crime. Is he ok? Dude's just fascinated by bats.
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Sep 25, 2016 07:22
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DeimosRising posted:I'm morbidly curious as to how you read Animal Farm
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Sep 25, 2016 11:00
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Xealot posted:My Batman isn't a superhero, merely a man of modest means who is a bat enthusiast. He leads grassroots efforts to conserve bat populations and doesn't actively fight crime. This is almost literally Nite Owl (II) from The Watchmen. I'm cool with that, I just felt like pointing it out.
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Sep 25, 2016 11:13
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I don't know how people can say Batman is not a superhero because he is in fact a classic superhero, even if a moody one.
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Sep 25, 2016 12:34
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Kurzon posted:I don't know how people can say Batman is not a superhero because he is in fact a classic superhero, even if a moody one. Kurzon posted:Batman is a silly-arse character who is written mostly by sheltered white people who know little about crime, policing, government, and corporations; and their work in turn is controlled tightly by corporate bigwigs whose concerns are sustaining sales and a larger franchise. A big part of BvS is Batman and Superman becoming aware of all the limitations that these constructs have had on him. Superman recognizes that the cops actively help Batman because he doesn't disrupt the status quo by mostly targeting the poor. Batman even admits that his entire 20 years of crime fighting have amounted to no real changes, so he needs to demonize Superman so he can justify his existence. But yeah, BvS has no message at all. KVeezy3 fucked around with this message at 15:13 on Sep 25, 2016 |
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Sep 25, 2016 14:31
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Kurzon posted:Batman is a silly-arse character who is written mostly by sheltered white people who know little about crime, policing, government, and corporations; and their work in turn is controlled tightly by corporate bigwigs whose concerns are sustaining sales and a larger franchise. Batman is not Animal Farm. He is not written to teach us anything. I like this bold new direction BvS criticism is going.
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Sep 25, 2016 14:48
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Kurzon posted:I don't know how people can say Batman is not a superhero because he is in fact a classic superhero, even if a moody one. Who said he wasn't a superhero? Here's a secret about Achilles, greatest hero of the Greek forces in the Trojan War: he's also a pissy bitch who acts like he's 14.
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Sep 25, 2016 15:17
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Hodgepodge posted:Who said he wasn't a superhero? But Achilles is part of one of the most famous pieces of world literature, whereas Batman is a dumb-rear end character created by idiots for idiots! There is just no basis of comparison.
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Sep 25, 2016 15:28
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What would happen if batman fought goky
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Sep 25, 2016 16:46
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Grendels Dad posted:But Achilles is part of one of the most famous pieces of world literature, whereas Batman is a dumb-rear end character created by idiots for idiots! There is just no basis of comparison. I would posit that it's possible more people are knowledgeable about batman globally than are aware of Achilles.
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Sep 25, 2016 16:53
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When you guys paint Batman as being secretly evil, does this extend to all superheroes? Or is it because his costume is dark and scary?
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Sep 25, 2016 17:06
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SolidSnakesBandana posted:When you guys paint Batman as being secretly evil, does this extend to all superheroes? Or is it because his costume is dark and scary? I believe the term used was "not good." Superman is good, while Batman is not. They made a movie about this, so it's not much of a secret. And how the costume looks wasn't even brought up. If you want a lazy dismissal of the argument, I'd suggest going with us being a bunch of just-jealouses hating on the successful.
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Sep 25, 2016 17:15
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LORD OF BOOTY posted:What would happen if batman fought goky Is this pre or post Cell Saga Goku? TIA
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Sep 25, 2016 17:49
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Pre ofc
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Sep 25, 2016 18:23
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Is this pre or post Cell Saga Goku? More to the point is this My Batman or Not My Batman?
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Sep 25, 2016 18:34
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How much prep time does Batman get?
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Sep 25, 2016 18:35
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Sir Kodiak posted:I believe the term used was "not good." Superman is good, while Batman is not. They made a movie about this, so it's not much of a secret. I wasn't intending it to be a dismissal but rather a question. Would the same criticisms apply to Green Arrow for instance? From my perspective it feels like Batman is being targeted due to his lack of superpowers.
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Sep 25, 2016 18:39
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Why does it matter?
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Sep 25, 2016 18:41
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Believe it or not I actually enjoy seeing all of these different perspectives. I see how I might come across as being close-minded but I've come to realize through these discussions that I've been wrong about a lot of things.
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Sep 25, 2016 18:44
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SolidSnakesBandana posted:I wasn't intending it to be a dismissal but rather a question. Would the same criticisms apply to Green Arrow for instance? From my perspective it feels like Batman is being targeted due to his lack of superpowers. This isn't true at all. Batman's superpower is being rich and powerful.
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Sep 25, 2016 19:09
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:This isn't true at all. Batman's superpower is being rich and powerful. I mean, really Batman's superpower is plot immunity and Gary Stu-ism.
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Sep 25, 2016 19:13
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Drifter posted:I mean, really Batman's superpower is plot immunity and Gary Stu-ism. Batman's real superpower is showing off how clever the writer is. Therefore, the best Batman is Zur-en-Arrh homeless Morrison Batman.
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Sep 25, 2016 19:22
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SolidSnakesBandana posted:I wasn't intending it to be a dismissal but rather a question. Would the same criticisms apply to Green Arrow for instance? From my perspective it feels like Batman is being targeted due to his lack of superpowers. The only comic book I've read with Green Arrow in it that I can recall is The Dark Knight Returns, and there he's just a minor side character. And he's never been in the movies. And the TV show is awful so I've only seen a few episodes. So I don't have an opinion on him in general. Though it's not like I've read Batman comics either, excepting TDKR. Which is part of why the conversation was less about what my idea of Batman is than digging into what people, like you, said makes for a "good Batman," with some incorporation of what we see in Batman v Superman. The most I can answer is to say that I'd likely have had the same response if you wrote this: SolidSnakesBandana posted:When you say Green Arrow was never good, do you mean TV Green Arrow? Or all Green Arrows? Because MY GREEN ARROW gives petty criminals jobs at Queen Industries and chills with the Justice League
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Sep 25, 2016 19:24
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SolidSnakesBandana posted:I wasn't intending it to be a dismissal but rather a question. Would the same criticisms apply to Green Arrow for instance? From my perspective it feels like Batman is being targeted due to his lack of superpowers. Green Arrow makes some whack-rear end Chili, so he gets a pass at any criticism. 
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Sep 25, 2016 19:43
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Kulkasha posted:Batman's real superpower is showing off how clever the writer is. Therefore, the best Batman is Zur-en-Arrh homeless Morrison Batman. "Flavor of Death" problem-solving microsleeps Batman.
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Sep 25, 2016 20:12
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Drifter posted:Green Arrow makes some whack-rear end Chili, so he gets a pass at any criticism. Kiss the what?!
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Sep 25, 2016 21:53
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Sep 25, 2016 22:06
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SolidSnakesBandana posted:I wasn't intending it to be a dismissal but rather a question. Would the same criticisms apply to Green Arrow for instance? From my perspective it feels like Batman is being targeted due to his lack of superpowers. Green Arrow is not as prominent as Batman so gets ignored more, also in the comics he's always been the "liberal" version of Batman from what I recall (don't know how that jives with him beating up thugs on the street though, I haven't personally read a lot of GA stuff, I just know he is part of that famous GA/GL team up where the guy accuses GL of helping the orange skins and the blue skins but not the "black skins"). I think for some people it does extend to all super heroes which is why you occasionally see the "fascist/libertarian power fantasy" label tossed around. I think Batman gets it worse due to some modern reevaluation of some of his most prominent aspects: he is a super wealthy white guy who spends a ton of resources in a piecemeal war against street level crime (including technology he could be using to better humanity), he obviously is not dealing with the PTSD he suffered from his parents deaths and dressing up like a bat is probably not a good sign of mental health, he routinely puts young people in danger in his crusade, he has a "no killing" rule which doesn't extend to other forms of reckless brutality, I am sure you can think of more. SolidSnakesBandana posted:Believe it or not I actually enjoy seeing all of these different perspectives. I see how I might come across as being close-minded but I've come to realize through these discussions that I've been wrong about a lot of things. So for what it's worth I realized earlier this week that I have been replying to you specifically on a lot of issues. I was going to assure you at one point that I wasn't targeting you specifically, but I think it is because while I do disagree with you on several things, you always seem open to actually listening and admitting any misunderstandings. Whereas I read some other people's posts and think "yeah this is not worth my time".
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Sep 25, 2016 22:09
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Green Arrow is specifically typed as left-liberal in the GA/GL stuff because he's an urban white guy, a very important distinction to make in the 70's, as opposed to a suburban white guy. He originally started off as one of a score of Batman ripoffs, (Iron Man is something of a ripoff of Green Arrow, interestingly) but by the time Denny O'Neill got around to the character, he immediately made him sympathetic by having him lose his millions and renounce wealth entirely. Green Lantern was the square because he was a cop.
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Sep 25, 2016 22:19
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