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Good Will Hrunting posted:Got contacted for a position where the bottom end of the salary range is what I make now and the top is about 10k lower than what I want but still a 20k raise. However, the requirements seem steep for this range (I "meet them all" - I just feel like someone at this level should be getting paid a bit more especially because it's a known start-up in a major city). If the requirements seem high for the pay and you meet them then why don't you have a job making more? I would evaluate if 20k is worth switching jobs over and then proceed from there. It also seems unlikely that the salary listed is total comp. asur fucked around with this message at 19:52 on Sep 27, 2016 |
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Sep 27, 2016 19:29
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Good Will Hrunting posted:Got contacted for a position where the bottom end of the salary range is what I make now and the top is about 10k lower than what I want but still a 20k raise.
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Sep 27, 2016 19:31
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Skandranon posted:I would probably give up on that and look at moving on now. Your problem is where you work. You also probably don't need to move into something like machine-learning or building the space shuttle to find something interesting. It's actually pretty easy to find even relatively mundane work rewarding if your workplace isn't poo poo. I had hoped to find reward in improving the team and project's methodologies and overall slowness, but that has turned out to be way harder than what I could take on. A shame, cause the people I work with are (mostly) cool people. It's just more draining and harder to justify than I'd expected.  Also it's drat near impossible with the culture it's steeped in.AskYourself posted:I second this. It sucks too cause there's tons of non-ape stuff to get done (CICD, data model refactoring, test suite, API) but I don't have the opportunity to do any of it cause the project's priorities are all hosed up and more importance is placed on features, or there's roadblocks in the way (security team won't let us get onto AWS, other devs are mostly too inexperienced to get anything done, app is a My First Rails Project mess, obsession with testing every single possible path the app can take a la "but have you manually tested what happens if you share something with someone that has these specific attributes and then changing the name to see if the JavaScript still works, otherwise I'm rejecting your PR"). Pretty disappointing.
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Sep 27, 2016 19:33
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Absurd manual testing requirements lead to lovely software and professional stagnation. It's one of the big reasons I'm leaving my current job after only four months.
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Sep 27, 2016 19:39
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Pollyanna posted:I had hoped to find reward in improving the team and project's methodologies and overall slowness, but that has turned out to be way harder than what I could take on. A shame, cause the people I work with are (mostly) cool people. It's just more draining and harder to justify than I'd expected. Yeah, it sucks, but it sounds like you are just shouting into the wind at this point. Those are all laudable goals, but fixing those sorts of things is more a culture/management thing. Unless you have full support from management, you aren't going to get anywhere and you shouldn't be too hard on yourself. It's noble to imagine fighting the good fight, but in reality, it is just so much easier to find a place where the fight is easier, or has already been won to some degree. What's so special about these people that you should be martyring yourself for their sake?
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Sep 27, 2016 19:41
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Good Will Hrunting posted:Got contacted for a position where the bottom end of the salary range is what I make now and the top is about 10k lower than what I want but still a 20k raise. However, the requirements seem steep for this range (I "meet them all" - I just feel like someone at this level should be getting paid a bit more especially because it's a known start-up in a major city). If you've got the time it's always worth going through simply to see what they offer and to have a competing offer to play off any others you get assuming you're actively looking right now.
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Sep 27, 2016 19:50
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asur posted:If the requirements seem high for the pay and you meet them then why don't you have a job making more?  This is literally why I'm looking for a new job lolJawnV6 posted:You're trying to leave the current place and it's an internal recruiter, right? Depending on funding series, "startup in a major city" could be sloshing with cash and a $50k signing bonus wouldn't be outlandish, or post-IPO asking for $200k over 4 years of RSU grant. If it's the kind of place you want on your resume, has smart folks doing good work that you'd like to join, and ticks every other box apart from "mediocre base salary" I'd say go for it and figure out how to make the tcomp work for you if you get through. pr0zac posted:If you've got the time it's always worth going through simply to see what they offer and to have a competing offer to play off any others you get assuming you're actively looking right now. Yes and yes. It does tick every box for me and maybe that is the case so I will pursue especially because it seems pretty great and they're interested in my level and experience areas. I've got about 5 places in the pipeline now so we'll see. Thank you folks.
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Sep 27, 2016 20:33
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Good Will Hrunting posted:I've got about 5 places in the pipeline now so we'll see. But really, be creative when you're negotiating. Sign-on bonus, extra vacation, paying for classes/conferences/etc. Want a night MBA? Ask for it when they decline your 1.1x base request. Recruiters will be clear when you've maxed out some bucket (this is the max RSU grant we can give for this position) but they generally have a lot of extra levers and if you're not happy with the base salary you can push them to see what those levers are.
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Sep 27, 2016 20:43
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Pollyanna posted:I had hoped to find reward in improving the team and project's methodologies and overall slowness, but that has turned out to be way harder than what I could take on. This isn't to denigrate you at all but you're too inexperienced to do this and if management thought you were the one to do it, it's just another sign that you work at a bad place.
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Sep 27, 2016 20:46
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JawnV6 posted:If you're already ramped up on interviewing, it makes sense to go for most things that pops up. "Internal" recruiter is important, because if you already have some offers in the pipeline you don't want to debase yourself with an awful external recruiter. Don't spread yourself too thin and let something slip through, be honest with everyone in the process, but your marginal cost for each new interview is as low as it will ever be. Great advice, thanks. I've only dealt with internal recruiters - they've been excellent so far with the exception of one. I've actually been surprised with how transparent the process has been at almost every spot. I'll definitely keep this stuff in mind, it's really not something I thought of originally, I just went straight to low-ish base pay range.
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Sep 27, 2016 20:49
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Pollyanna posted:Thus has been my experience. Rails is the new Java/PHP in that there will always be jobs for it but it isn't really enjoyable to work with, given its baggage via old lovely projects and lack of career advancement. I want to work in more interesting technologies and languages like Clojure, Swift, or Elixir, and the more you work with Rails, the less likely that will happen. Honestly, I think that in my position (transitioning back into dev after a hiatus) it might be beneficial to pick up some Rails skills, at least basic ones. Considering I've got some FMLA time to pick things up, a little freelancing in Rails territory to supplement bills and, you know, buy food would be helpful while I pick up more useful/interesting/fun skills like Angular and TypeScript. That makes sense to me, at least.
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Sep 28, 2016 00:01
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BlueInkAlchemist posted:Honestly, I think that in my position (transitioning back into dev after a hiatus) it might be beneficial to pick up some Rails skills, at least basic ones. Considering I've got some FMLA time to pick things up, a little freelancing in Rails territory to supplement bills and, you know, buy food would be helpful while I pick up more useful/interesting/fun skills like Angular and TypeScript. That makes sense to me, at least. You are far more likely to get hired on the basis of having Angular/TypeScript/React/JavaScript than Rails. If you apply to a Rails shop, they will not hire you if you only have a bit of Rails, and everywhere else will be more impressed by the not Rails stuff.
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Sep 28, 2016 00:14
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Skandranon posted:You are far more likely to get hired on the basis of having Angular/TypeScript/React/JavaScript than Rails. If you apply to a Rails shop, they will not hire you if you only have a bit of Rails, and everywhere else will be more impressed by the not Rails stuff. Hence "might". Thanks for all of the insight! It helps narrow down where I need to focus.
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Sep 28, 2016 00:38
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People still primarily using Rails in 2016 are almost universally insufferable and you should not not work for them. More specifically, they're the type who'll preach TDD and clean code or whatever other bullshit but not actually do it themselves.
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Sep 28, 2016 03:12
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Github still uses Rails at this point last I saw. Then again, I've heard that things suck at Github now that they took on a bazillion dollars in VC finally.
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Sep 28, 2016 03:13
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I updated my post there to clarify what you're probably going to run into if you go to interview for those sorts of jobs. If you have some old Rails app that you need to maintain due to its functionality it's one thing but you shouldn't be starting anything new with it these days, and more of your work should be in not-Rails than Rails. It and the Ruby community are poo poo and you have plenty of other good options for a web stack these days.
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Sep 28, 2016 03:16
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Skandranon posted:Yeah, it sucks, but it sounds like you are just shouting into the wind at this point. Those are all laudable goals, but fixing those sorts of things is more a culture/management thing. Unless you have full support from management, you aren't going to get anywhere and you shouldn't be too hard on yourself. It's noble to imagine fighting the good fight, but in reality, it is just so much easier to find a place where the fight is easier, or has already been won to some degree. What's so special about these people that you should be martyring yourself for their sake? And even when you have support from management, it can be hard (or impossible) to sell a team that's really set in their ways on the benefits of a change.
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Sep 28, 2016 03:43
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necrobobsledder posted:Github still uses Rails at this point last I saw. Then again, I've heard that things suck at Github now that they took on a bazillion dollars in VC finally. Airbnb is also committed to Ruby. I've heard unsubstantiated rumors from people who have interviewed at Airbnb that they want to do to Ruby what Facebook did to PHP. I think Uber is Python, largely. Youtube is/was Python. Java still wins, sort of. Any large successful business is going to have multiple teams working on specialized aspects of the business or internal services, and that means enterprise middleware software goons writing Java. The hip places will have moved onto Scala for some things. And the hip teams will want someone with either Scala experience or Java and one bonus language, like either Ruby or Python or Clojure or whatever. In my experience, language will be somewhat secondary if you can talk about service oriented architectures and multiple types of databases when you are interviewing at a company selling a cloud computing or SaaSy type product.
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Sep 28, 2016 04:53
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triple sulk posted:It and the Ruby community are poo poo and you have plenty of other good options for a web stack these days. Is the MEAN stack getting used a lot out there? I'd assume the answer is 'yes' given that it uses both Angular and Node, but I wanted to make sure I was on the right track with an end-goal of 'know how to use, talk about, and grow within MEAN'.
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Sep 28, 2016 05:50
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BlueInkAlchemist posted:Is the MEAN stack getting used a lot out there? I'd assume the answer is 'yes' given that it uses both Angular and Node, but I wanted to make sure I was on the right track with an end-goal of 'know how to use, talk about, and grow within MEAN'. I would say yes with a few caveats. 1. MongoDB is crap. If you want JSON db, use Postgres. 2. While I like Angular, there's a lot going on in the MVC SPA framework space, from Angular 2 to React to Aurelia. Node is pretty solid though, nothing coming up to replace it for awhile.
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Sep 28, 2016 05:53
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Skandranon posted:Yeah, it sucks, but it sounds like you are just shouting into the wind at this point. Those are all laudable goals, but fixing those sorts of things is more a culture/management thing. Unless you have full support from management, you aren't going to get anywhere and you shouldn't be too hard on yourself. It's noble to imagine fighting the good fight, but in reality, it is just so much easier to find a place where the fight is easier, or has already been won to some degree. What's so special about these people that you should be martyring yourself for their sake? Nothing, really. Just that it's my job and a responsibility I hold as a result. Also the chance to get my hands dirty setting this stuff up, but it turns out actually doing it is relatively easy, and the hard part is politicking and culture fit. I want to work somewhere that has a good foundation, and failing that, to at least set it up myself...but 1. it's a hell of a commitment and time investment 2. I'm way too inexperienced to actually pull it off and 3. company politics and culture can interfere with it like woah. It's not worth fixing it yourself, from the inside out. Thermopyle posted:This isn't to denigrate you at all but you're too inexperienced to do this and if management thought you were the one to do it, it's just another sign that you work at a bad place. Pretty much. I bit off way more than I could chew, and really am unhappy as a result. Plus, the team I work with is kind of useless, to be honest. Great people, but useless. jony neuemonic posted:And even when you have support from management, it can be hard (or impossible) to sell a team that's really set in their ways on the benefits of a change. I have been working on improving the team's practices and methodologies since December and I've gotten nowhere. Plus, the company as a whole is married to a custom management program they bought from a contractor and makes everyone buy into, so everyone defaults to that. It's even specifically designed for finance/insurance and is pretty useless for software, and it doesn't look like they wanna give it up. It's not gonna happen. I don't want to be a serial job hopper, so I'll prolly continue this job til ~1 year or so while looking for other places on the side. Interviewing, yay!
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Sep 28, 2016 05:56
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I guess we're talking about MVC framework stuff now. Perfect segue for me. Is Django still a well-regarded pick for a basic shopping-cart-style site? I'm talking about looking through lists of stuff, adding them to a personal queue, and then getting them in some way through some back end. I'm not talking actual retail. Since my place loves Python generally, it seemed like a very good choice in the general scheme of things. I'd like to do some nice client-side stuff too eventually, so I was looking up Node.js. I didn't really know squat about it, so I was surprised to see it basically has its own service and everything. I don't think I want to make a rich client application like just about any site ending in .io, so I wonder if it's overkill. In another rant, I mentioned unilaterally playing around in Django with a remote team in a call, and they started laughing about it as another one of those bloated, kitchen sink frameworks that are hard to use. I'm disgusted. Of course, their pile of PHP helpers is clearly superior.
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Sep 28, 2016 20:39
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Goddamn, salary negotiations are nerve-wracking. Why haven't you responded to my email, recruiter? Did I anger you? Are you having to figure out if I'm actually worth having on the team?  I mean, I know I'm not going to get rejected just because of a misaimed negotiation point (assuming it even was misaimed), but that doesn't stop me from getting neurotic over it. Re: MVC stuff, I've used Django in a fairly minor capacity and liked it well enough. If your group likes Python then it's a pretty obvious choice. I'd stay away from PHP because it's PHP, and Node.js because of NPM's famous failures.
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Sep 28, 2016 20:47
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Nailing down exactly which skills I should be practicing until I'm ready to look for a new job is kind of a problem for me right now. I currently develop in C#, which I really like. I'm proficient, but I could always get better. But then I wonder if I would get more value for my time if I learned Javascript or some other server side language, then I wonder which if any particular frameworks I should focus on, and how to tell the difference between what's good and what's some flash-in-the-pan webdev fad and just AAAAAAAAAH! 
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Sep 28, 2016 21:47
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GlitchThief posted:Nailing down exactly which skills I should be practicing until I'm ready to look for a new job is kind of a problem for me right now. I currently develop in C#, which I really like. I'm proficient, but I could always get better. But then I wonder if I would get more value for my time if I learned Javascript or some other server side language, then I wonder which if any particular frameworks I should focus on, and how to tell the difference between what's good and what's some flash-in-the-pan webdev fad and just AAAAAAAAAH! I'm on the other side of what I'm trying to nail down. After doing a general brush-up on web dev as a whole, I'm diving into MVC, JSON, and even SQL/MySQL, but I'm wondering if Java or C# might have more longevity to study at some point. However, since web dev is my latest experience with programming, that seems to be the best place for me to begin. Still, this'd be good insight to get from other programmers!
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Sep 28, 2016 21:56
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For what it's worth, C# seems to be the sweet spot between "fun/easy to use" and "is a skill that employers will need for years to come." I'm just worried that it alone isn't enough. Web development seems to require a lot of various sub disciplines, and that's not even touching on the fact that I can't do visual design for poo poo.
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Sep 28, 2016 21:58
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GlitchThief posted:For what it's worth, C# seems to be the sweet spot between "fun/easy to use" and "is a skill that employers will need for years to come." I'm just worried that it alone isn't enough. Web development seems to require a lot of various sub disciplines, and that's not even touching on the fact that I can't do visual design for poo poo. Neither can I. My long-term plan is to get into some sort of salaried web dev position and branch out towards C# (based on experiences like yours).
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Sep 28, 2016 22:02
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C# is cool, good, and Visual Studio owns bones (this is coming from a Java person). On another note, a few of these positions I'm interviewing for stress KICK rear end AT MULTITHREADING in their listings. I think I've brought this up before but this seems like such a tough thing to gauge in interviews and I'm not too sure how to prepare. I remember the basics from school but I've only used async in prod for very basic stuff (spinning tasks off a request to do stats stuff in the background and similar things). Never anything complex, and I feel like it may show in an interview.
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Sep 28, 2016 22:14
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If you're a Java dev, you should know certain classes and packages (java.util.concurrent is a good place to start) and know what Java language constructs can help you and what they do (volatile, synchronized, etc.). Beyond that, you'll have to do the song and dance of concurrency and resource sharing problems like Dining Philosopher's Problem or implement a toy concurrent data structure in the interview. You have a fair chance of being asked about the Java garbage collector and memory system as well but I think that's slightly unfair given so many people are still on Java 6 or 7 and the principles are what count moreso than trivia about what the default size of the permgen is. These days, you may also get asked distributed processing questions on top of this like whether it's appropriate for certain problems or not.
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Sep 28, 2016 22:30
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Rocko Bonaparte posted:I guess we're talking about MVC framework stuff now. Perfect segue for me. Is Django still a well-regarded pick for a basic shopping-cart-style site? I'm talking about looking through lists of stuff, adding them to a personal queue, and then getting them in some way through some back end. I'm not talking actual retail. Since my place loves Python generally, it seemed like a very good choice in the general scheme of things. I'd like to do some nice client-side stuff too eventually, so I was looking up Node.js. I didn't really know squat about it, so I was surprised to see it basically has its own service and everything. I don't think I want to make a rich client application like just about any site ending in .io, so I wonder if it's overkill. Django is fine and good. People who think Django is bloated and hard to use are generally idiots who don't know what they're talking about.
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Sep 28, 2016 23:27
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:NPM's famous failures Such as?
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Sep 28, 2016 23:33
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return0 posted:Such as? npm left pad
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Sep 28, 2016 23:34
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I applied to a job and someone who works there is good friends (according to LinkedIn/Facebook stalking) with my boss. Our VP of Engineering just scheduled a 1 on 1 with me tomorrow 
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Sep 28, 2016 23:48
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GlitchThief posted:For what it's worth, C# seems to be the sweet spot between "fun/easy to use" and "is a skill that employers will need for years to come." I'm just worried that it alone isn't enough. Web development seems to require a lot of various sub disciplines, and that's not even touching on the fact that I can't do visual design for poo poo. Maybe take a look at using TypeScript with NodeJS? That will add 2 (sorta 3) items to your resume that should compliment your C# stuff. TypeScript is very much like C#, designed by the same guy. It fixes a lot of bad stuff in JavaScript and gives you types so you feel all warm and comfortable. Will give you a foot in the door to either web application programming, or serverside NodeJS stuff. Thermopyle posted:npm left pad More specifically: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/03/23/npm_left_pad_chaos/
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Sep 28, 2016 23:52
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Good Will Hrunting posted:I applied to a job and someone who works there is good friends (according to LinkedIn/Facebook stalking) with my boss. Our VP of Engineering just scheduled a 1 on 1 with me tomorrow Nice! Good luck. Skandranon posted:Maybe take a look at using TypeScript with NodeJS? That will add 2 (sorta 3) items to your resume that should compliment your C# stuff. TypeScript is very much like C#, designed by the same guy. It fixes a lot of bad stuff in JavaScript and gives you types so you feel all warm and comfortable. Will give you a foot in the door to either web application programming, or serverside NodeJS stuff. Nice. That's hitting a lot of positive marks for me personally, so I will definitely give it a go. Thank you!
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Sep 28, 2016 23:54
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return0 posted:Such as? https://github.com/nodejs/node-v0.x-archive/issues/6960
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Sep 29, 2016 00:20
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GlitchThief posted:then I wonder [...] how to tell the difference between what's good and what's some flash-in-the-pan webdev fad and just AAAAAAAAAH!
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Sep 29, 2016 00:32
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Ralith posted:There's an easy way to find things that aren't a flash-in-the-pan webdev fad: look outside of webdev entirely. God bless you. It's so obvious but it's also some of the best advice I've heard in a while. The only reason I'm invested in web dev at all is because that's what I presently do for a living. But truth be told, I don't really love it. I've been thinking about playing around with other stuff, but I always figure there'd be no career payoff since my time working as a web developer is the only thing to recommend me professionally at all. I guess that's a bit mercenary, but I only have so many hours in a day.
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Sep 29, 2016 00:37
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People manage to switch careers to software development from entirely unrelated fields, so you can certainly change specialties. Probably easier not to do so all at once, admittedly.
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Sep 29, 2016 00:42
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GlitchThief posted:Nailing down exactly which skills I should be practicing until I'm ready to look for a new job is kind of a problem for me right now. I currently develop in C#, which I really like. I'm proficient, but I could always get better. But then I wonder if I would get more value for my time if I learned Javascript or some other server side language, then I wonder which if any particular frameworks I should focus on, and how to tell the difference between what's good and what's some flash-in-the-pan webdev fad and just AAAAAAAAAH! JavaScript is not a server side language. Despite people putting a fair amount of effort into changing that for some ridiculous reason, that's probably not going to change. There's plenty of work in C#, but I hear the market is pretty bad right now; lots of uncertainty over the election/market or something. Just do anything you think is cool because then you'll unwittingly be passionate when you talk about it in interviews.
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