EU Politics: I miss Renaults(don't make fun of me)

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > EU Politics: I miss Renaults(don't make fun of me)

Guavanaut: Nov 27, 2009; Looking At Them Tittys
1969 - 1998; Toilet Rascal

Being as Russia seems to think that the nations of Europe spend all day broadcasting homosexual propaganda to turn men gay, why don't they actually start doing that. Problem solved.

# ? Sep 23, 2016 12:57

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# ? May 21, 2024 08:34

Cat Mattress: Jul 14, 2012; by Cyrano4747

Flowers For Algeria posted:

Using drones defeats the whole purpose of having a war to reduce the male population of Europe, man.

I know! Invade Syria! Once it's pacified, we could send the refugees over there, let them settle the land.

# ? Sep 23, 2016 14:39

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

DarkCrawler posted:

Again this assumes that:

None of their female relatives/wives/other female refugees never get to Sweden nor the relatives of older men

Well, I have my doubts about Sweden opening up for that kind of immigration any time soon, but that would indeed be a solution to the gender imbalance.

DarkCrawler posted:

They will solely stay in Sweden and won't go to abroad/elsewhere in EU in search of female company/wives

That would be a solution too, though I could see that plan being less viable in the future if European politics keep going the way they're going. I mean, would anyone really be surprised if countries started denying the freedom of movement for naturalized EU citizens, with the argument being that those citizens should be the responsibility of the countries that accepted them? (Read: Don't make us pay for your mistakes.)

DarkCrawler posted:

14-21 counts as a generation instead of an age group

Like I said, the generation part comes in if you assume a large part of them are lying about their ages, meaning they should actually be distributed across not just those 7 years. That said, it'd probably not be a full 30 years or whatever a generation would be, but it would still be a pretty significant age group.

DarkCrawler posted:

They will only date in their own narrow age group forever

DarkCrawler posted:

And yes, the imbalance in arriving asylum seekers' gender was a single year. One-child policy lasted for 35+ years. There is no comparison even if you believe the above things will happen.

And that single year produced results in the 14-21 age group that blow the One-child policy out of the water. Meaning they have to expand the dating pool way beyond that age group to gain better odds than Chinese men.

# ? Sep 23, 2016 15:32

DarkCrawler: Apr 6, 2009; by vyelkin

Yeah except the point is that it is only one age group. In China it is the entire generation, something like 35 million more men then women total. In addition the dynamics are completely different - if there were 35 million Chinese women or ready made families of exact same demographic im Sudan or something they would grab that stat because they are really making GBS threads their pants over the coming senior crisis.

I don't see EU blocking family unification. Make it a bureucratic clusterfuck that will take minimum five years (on top of the time it takes to get citizenship too) to complete to discourage further migration but eliminating it entirely would mean having a permanent second-class citizenry with bizarre age/gender divide and an actual reason to be pissed off to the EU. There is no point accepting ANY asylum claims if that is the strategy. Sweden (or any EU country barring Eastern European shitbaskets) is not Israel, if someone becomes a citizen they can bring their family over and marry who the gently caress they please.

In addition the cost of an unaccompanied minor is going to be way more to the society in comparison of having their parents and family here. There are not only societal, security and moral reasons for family unification but financial too.

In addition the right to family unification is covered in EU and international law (as well as several national ones) so legal ones exist too.

DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 16:04 on Sep 23, 2016

# ? Sep 23, 2016 15:59

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

DarkCrawler posted:

Yeah except the point is that it is only one age group. In China it is the entire generation, something like 35 million more men then women total. In addition the dynamics are completely different - if there were 35 million Chinese women or ready made families of exact same demographic im Sudan or something they would grab that stat because they are really making GBS threads their pants over the coming senior crisis.

I'll try again. Within the 14-21 age group, Sweden skews far more male than does China for the One-child policy generation. IIRC, the excess number of men in the former is 3 or 4 times that of the latter, in relative terms. Basically, the numbers would be about the same if you distributed the imbalance in the 14-21 age group in Sweden across an entire generation.

DarkCrawler posted:

I don't see EU blocking family unification. Make it a bureucratic clusterfuck that will take minimum five years (on top of the time it takes to get citizenship too) to complete to discourage further migration but eliminating it entirely would mean having a permanent second-class citizenry with bizarre age/gender divide and an actual reason to be pissed off to the EU. There is no point accepting ANY asylum claims if that is the strategy. Sweden (or any EU country barring Eastern European shitbaskets) is not Israel, if someone becomes a citizen they can bring their family over and marry who the gently caress they please.

I wasn't talking about the EU. As for the quoted part, that doesn't really seem to be the kind of thing most politicians would actually care that much about? Hell, some of them actively support such things because it helps them politically.

DarkCrawler posted:

In addition the cost of an unaccompanied minor is going to be way more to the society in comparison of having their parents and family here. There are not only societal, security and moral reasons for family unification but financial too.

In addition the right to family unification is covered in EU and international law (as well as several national ones) so legal ones exist too.

National laws can be rewritten, EU/international law ignored if no one cares to enforce it. For EU laws, they might not for the simple reason that they're doing the same thing. Or possibly to throw the far right a bone in an attempt to salvage the EU.

# ? Sep 23, 2016 16:40

DarkCrawler: Apr 6, 2009; by vyelkin

A Buttery Pastry posted:

I'll try again. Within the 14-21 age group, Sweden skews far more male than does China for the One-child policy generation. IIRC, the excess number of men in the former is 3 or 4 times that of the latter, in relative terms. Basically, the numbers would be about the same if you distributed the imbalance in the 14-21 age group in Sweden across an entire generation.

Well you're going to have to post your sources for that because I don't find anything like that. Are you talking about the ABC article? That is the only one I can find that directly compares it with China and the numbers it cites are solely for 16-17 age group.
http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2016-01-11/european-migrant-crisis-triggers-gender-imbalance/7076924

A BBC article cites the same, it has the breakdown for 14-21 but it does not compare it with all of one child policy generation
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-35444173

Also: umm

quote:

and she is provisionally assuming that all applicants will be granted residency permits

Afghans, where the 16-17 bump (like you said, due to false age claims) is concentrated don't get asylum very easy anymore.

Also the stats are from 8 months ago...that's what, 30-50,000 more people in the pile?

Now again, the Chinese who experienced one child policy is currently anywhere between 1-38. So I really want to see the sources that put the total imbalance in the entire group/generation equal to Sweden.

A Buttery Pastry posted:

I wasn't talking about the EU. As for the quoted part, that doesn't really seem to be the kind of thing most politicians would actually care that much about? Hell, some of them actively support such things because it helps them politically.

Some, not all, and certainly not the prevailing opinion in the countries that have taken most of the refugees. Apartheid in non Eastern EU isn't happening any time soon.

A Buttery Pastry posted:

National laws can be rewritten, EU/international law ignored if no one cares to enforce it. For EU laws, they might not for the simple reason that they're doing the same thing. Or possibly to throw the far right a bone in an attempt to salvage the EU.

Well don't you think in this hypothetical poo poo future where Sweden or Germany bans family unification from a certain part of the citizenry because of their national/religious origins they would not have just resorted into just throwing out all refugees? There, gender imbalance sorted (since we're just ascribing Hungary mentality to all EU countries now). Because what you are picturing seems kind of pointlessly counterproductive for a nation that doesn't care about the legal, moral, security, financial and societal results.

It's entirely a worse solution then having no refugees or having unified refugee families. It would just give far right more material from the inevitable problems (because a being in a rut is one thing, being legally prevented from having your family over or marry whom you want when you are a citizen is a whole other situation)

DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 17:39 on Sep 23, 2016

# ? Sep 23, 2016 17:17

Cardiac: Aug 28, 2012

A Buttery Pastry posted:

I'll try again. Within the 14-21 age group, Sweden skews far more male than does China for the One-child policy generation. IIRC, the excess number of men in the former is 3 or 4 times that of the latter, in relative terms. Basically, the numbers would be about the same if you distributed the imbalance in the 14-21 age group in Sweden across an entire

Of the underage, most of them are Afghans. Out of the 160k asylum seekers last year, 35k were reported as underage unaccompanied Afghans. Mostly boys/young men.
The number of Afghans underage greatly outnumber for example Syrians.
Noteworthy is that the number of adult Afghan asylum seekers is much lower than underage.
During the last decade Sweden have received the highest amount of underage asylum seekers for the whole EU in absolute numbers.
Which probably is due to Sweden being one of the last countries to implement medical age checks, and which will now be implemented. Funny fact, The tests that have been criticized in Sweden are used by FIFA to determine age of footbal players and which has an error of one year.

# ? Sep 23, 2016 18:29

Doctor Malaver: May 23, 2007; Ce qui s'est pass� t'a rendu plus fort

Cat Mattress posted:

That's debatable. All empires have committed atrocities, and I wouldn't discount Britain's organized famines, invention of concentration camps, and deliberate use of smallpox as a biological weapon, among other examples.

I thought the Dutch invented concentration camps in South Africa...

# ? Sep 23, 2016 18:40

DarkCrawler: Apr 6, 2009; by vyelkin

Doctor Malaver posted:

I thought the Dutch invented concentration camps in South Africa...

Pretty sure that was the British?

# ? Sep 23, 2016 18:54

Guavanaut: Nov 27, 2009; Looking At Them Tittys
1969 - 1998; Toilet Rascal

Doctor Malaver posted:

I thought the Dutch invented concentration camps in South Africa...

They went in them in South Africa.

# ? Sep 23, 2016 18:57

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

DarkCrawler posted:

Well you're going to have to post your sources for that because I don't find anything like that.... A BBC article cites the same, it has the breakdown for 14-21 but it does not compare it with all of one child policy generation
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-35444173

I didn't take the numbers from an explicit comparison of the two, instead I ran the numbers myself by adding the asylum seekers to a Swedish population pyramid and comparing it to its Chinese equivalent. Not sure it was the exact graph you linked, but since I doubt I'm going to find the exact numbers I used back then I'll just do the same for the ones you provided.

China:

Males age 10-24: 148 million
Females age 10-24: 130 million

Ratio: 114 males per 100 females

Males age 0-39: 391 million
Females age 0-39: 354 million

Ratio: 110 males per 100 females

Sweden:

Males age 10-24: 732 thousand
Females age 10-24: 653 thousand

Ratio: 112 males per 100 females

Males age 0-39: 1,927 thousand
Females age 0-39: 1,794 thousand

Ratio: 107 males per 100 females

Leaving out looking specifically at the 15-19 bracket, since that is definitely skewed by people lying themselves younger to increase their chances of asylum.

DarkCrawler posted:

Some, not all, and certainly not the prevailing opinion in the countries that have taken most of the refugees. Apartheid in non Eastern EU isn't happening any time soon.

Maybe not, but given the recent blossoming of the Swedish (and German) far right, it might not be entirely unreasonable to expect the two to follow a similar trajectory in terms of anti-immigrant politics as their neighbors. Which puts that kind of approach to politics no more than a decade away. Meanwhile, the rest of Europe might continue to make the two look good in comparison.

DarkCrawler posted:

Well don't you think in this hypothetical poo poo future where Sweden or Germany bans family unification from a certain part of the citizenry because of their national/religious origins they would not have just resorted into just throwing out all refugees? There, gender imbalance sorted (since we're just ascribing Hungary mentality to all EU countries now). Because what you are picturing seems kind of pointlessly counterproductive for a nation that doesn't care about the legal, moral, security, financial and societal results.

It's entirely a worse solution then having no refugees or having unified refugee families. It would just give far right more material from the inevitable problems (because a being in a rut is one thing, being legally prevented from having your family over or marry whom you want when you are a citizen is a whole other situation)

You have to start somewhere. As for the quoted part, that's kinda the point. Politicians in the EU have been doing that for decades by now, sometimes deliberately, sometimes because they're idiots. Why should they stop now?

# ? Sep 23, 2016 20:05

DarkCrawler: Apr 6, 2009; by vyelkin

A Buttery Pastry posted:

I didn't take the numbers from an explicit comparison of the two, instead I ran the numbers myself by adding the asylum seekers to a Swedish population pyramid and comparing it to its Chinese equivalent. Not sure it was the exact graph you linked, but since I doubt I'm going to find the exact numbers I used back then I'll just do the same for the ones you provided.

China:

Males age 10-24: 148 million
Females age 10-24: 130 million

Ratio: 114 males per 100 females

Males age 0-39: 391 million
Females age 0-39: 354 million

Ratio: 110 males per 100 females

Sweden:

Males age 10-24: 732 thousand
Females age 10-24: 653 thousand

Ratio: 112 males per 100 females

Males age 0-39: 1,927 thousand
Females age 0-39: 1,794 thousand

Ratio: 107 males per 100 females

Leaving out looking specifically at the 15-19 bracket, since that is definitely skewed by people lying themselves younger to increase their chances of asylum.

A) I must have missed something because to me it looks like you are comparing a group of 14 years with a group of 39 years, where China's imbalance is still greater.

B) Sweden must have skewed heavily male even beforehand. If we take the roughly 60,000 male 10-24 year olds regardless of not they are truthful in 2015, and subtract the female ones (15,000) that should have been only 45,000+ male surplus, yet your calculations have it at about 80,000.
http://www.migrationsverket.se/English/About-the-Migration-Agency/Facts-and-statistics-/Statistics.html

A Buttery Pastry posted:

Maybe not, but given the recent blossoming of the Swedish (and German) far right, it might not be entirely unreasonable to expect the two to follow a similar trajectory in terms of anti-immigrant politics as their neighbors. Which puts that kind of approach to politics no more than a decade away. Meanwhile, the rest of Europe might continue to make the two look good in comparison.

Blossoming is relative. Getting about 15-25% of the vote does not compare to Orban's autocracy in Hungary or other ultra right-wing actual governments in Bad Europe. Western, Southern and Northern Europe are not going to go all yellow star over a few million extra Muslims anywhere except in retarded right-wing fantasies.

A Buttery Pastry posted:

You have to start somewhere. As for the quoted part, that's kinda the point. Politicians in the EU have been doing that for decades by now, sometimes deliberately, sometimes because they're idiots. Why should they stop now?

By the time measures such as what you are are proposing would be enacted we are shooting at boats on the Mediterranean. Hypothetical Evil Nativist EU sure as poo poo won't be letting more people drift in to the shores. So in this proposed future we're going to have bigger obscene human rights violations so I guess it's kind of pointless to debate about a small one in comparison :shrug:

DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 20:50 on Sep 23, 2016

# ? Sep 23, 2016 20:44

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

DarkCrawler posted:

A) I must have missed something because to me it looks like you are comparing a group of 14 years with a group of 39 years, where China's imbalance is still greater.

There's a 10-24 and a 0-39 age bracket for both. And yes, China does beat Sweden in the big picture.

DarkCrawler posted:

B) Sweden must have skewed heavily male even beforehand. If we take the roughly 60,000 male 10-24 year olds regardless of not they are truthful in 2015, and subtract the female ones (15,000) that should have been only 45,000+ male surplus, yet your calculations have it at about 80,000.
http://www.migrationsverket.se/English/About-the-Migration-Agency/Facts-and-statistics-/Statistics.html

Yes, younger age brackets skew male across the board, evening out over time due to higher male mortality, until eventually you have way more women than men. China's One Child Policy, and the recent refugees in Sweden, then skew that further.

DarkCrawler posted:

Blossoming is relative. Getting about 15-25% of the vote does not compare to Orban's autocracy in Hungary or other ultra right-wing actual governments in Bad Europe. Western, Southern and Northern Europe are not going to go all yellow star over a few million extra Muslims anywhere except in retarded right-wing fantasies.

Have you been living in a bog for the last decade? What makes you so confident that Europe is suddenly going to stop moving right like it has been for decades? The Syrian refugees are only a small prelude of things to come, when climate change really starts loving with much of the world.

DarkCrawler posted:

By the time measures such as what you are are proposing would be enacted we are shooting at boats on the Mediterranean. Hypothetical Evil Nativist EU sure as poo poo won't be letting more people drift in to the shores. So in this proposed future we're going to have bigger obscene human rights violations so I guess it's kind of pointless to debate about a small one in comparison

"Europe's best bulwarks are her steel walls."

# ? Sep 23, 2016 21:45

Kassad: Nov 12, 2005; It's about time.

It's just been reported that French judges investigating Sarkozy have in their possession a notebook belonging to Gaddafi's former oil minister Shukri Ghanem, who died in Vienna in April 2012 (found floating in the Danube after a heart attack, convenient). In the notebook are handwritten notes from April 29, 2007 about three money transfers to Sarkozy for his presidential campaign: 1.5 million euros from the Libyan Africa Portfolio (headed by Bashir Saleh, Gaddafi's chief of staff), 3 million euros sent by Saif al-Islam Gaddafi, 2 million euros sent by Abdullah Senussi (Gaddafi's intelligence chief). Sarkozy's people were reportedly impatient to receive the money.

This puts a hole in Sarkozy's defence, which mostly rested on the argument that the Libyan funding allegations were made up by Gaddafi after France started backing the Libyan rebels in 2011.

And the primary elections in Sarkozy's party are happening 2 months from now :munch:

Edit: Here's the article about it, in English (but behind a paywall).

Kassad fucked around with this message at 13:13 on Sep 27, 2016

# ? Sep 27, 2016 12:58

Cat Mattress: Jul 14, 2012; by Cyrano4747

All I want for Christmas is Sarkozy in jail.

# ? Sep 27, 2016 13:02

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

Sarkozy will be sentenced to death under the Le Pen regime, for the crime of conspiring with Islamists.

# ? Sep 27, 2016 16:57

LemonDrizzle: Mar 28, 2012; neoliberal shithead

Normally when I post articles about complex bit of EU politics I try to carefully select excerpts, but for this one I think that just the headline and lede will do quite nicely thank you very much: https://www.ft.com/content/34f3608a-8598-11e6-8897-2359a58ac7a5?ftcamp=published_links%2Frss%2Fbrussels%2Ffeed%2F%2Fproduct

quote:

Mario Draghi faces wrath of Bundestag over ECB policies
Conservative critics say low rates and QE are good for the eurozone as a whole but not for Germany

# ? Sep 28, 2016 18:50

Cat Mattress: Jul 14, 2012; by Cyrano4747

I want Mario Draghi to double down on QE every time Germany complains.

# ? Sep 28, 2016 20:23

GaussianCopula: Jun 5, 2011; Jews fleeing the Holocaust are not in any way comparable to North Africans, who don't flee genocide but want to enjoy the social welfare systems of Northern Europe.

LemonDrizzle posted:

Normally when I post articles about complex bit of EU politics I try to carefully select excerpts, but for this one I think that just the headline and lede will do quite nicely thank you very much: https://www.ft.com/content/34f3608a-8598-11e6-8897-2359a58ac7a5?ftcamp=published_links%2Frss%2Fbrussels%2Ffeed%2F%2Fproduct

German politicians advocating for what is best for Germany - call the police?

Cat Mattress posted:

I want Mario Draghi to double down on QE every time Germany complains.

Why are you supporting the AfD and other populist parties?

# ? Sep 28, 2016 21:31

Dawncloack: Nov 26, 2007; ECKS DEE!; Nap Ghost

So what's going on with Deutsche Bank?

# ? Sep 28, 2016 21:31

YF-23: Feb 17, 2011; My god, it's full of cat!

GaussianCopula posted:

German politicians advocating for what is best for Germany - call the police?

Crying about the ECB implementing policies that benefit the EU instead of a select member state is pretty special. If your politicians don't like that the ECB performs a role other than being Germany's appointed governor over the European banking system maybe they should defect to the AfD and demand that Germany leave the EU.

# ? Sep 28, 2016 22:03

Troy Queef: Jan 12, 2013

Dawncloack posted:

So what's going on with Deutsche Bank?

On a similar note: what's going on in Spain? It appears there's some sort of revolt within the PSOE.

# ? Sep 28, 2016 22:05

Regarde Aduck: Oct 19, 2012; c l o u d k i t t e n; Grimey Drawer

GaussianCopula posted:

German politicians advocating for what is best for Germany - call the police?

Why are you supporting the AfD and other populist parties?

Well as you guys seem to think you pulled off a fait accompli and control the EU then things like this are part of the package. If you want to run the EU and want it to survive then you're going to have to make sacrifices. You've made it your baby, do you want to care for it or not?

Quite frankly i'm fine going back to the old ways of doing things and firebombing German cities again. You bunch of arseholes.

# ? Sep 28, 2016 22:08

Nitrousoxide: May 30, 2011; do not buy a oneplus phone

Regarde Aduck posted:

Quite frankly i'm fine going back to the old ways of doing things and firebombing German cities again. You bunch of arseholes.

# ? Sep 28, 2016 22:35

Cat Mattress: Jul 14, 2012; by Cyrano4747

GaussianCopula posted:

Why are you supporting the AfD and other populist parties?

Gerxit would be a very interesting thing to see.

# ? Sep 28, 2016 22:38

Dawncloack: Nov 26, 2007; ECKS DEE!; Nap Ghost

Troy Queef posted:

On a similar note: what's going on in Spain? It appears there's some sort of revolt within the PSOE.

You know that whole thing about politics having two axes, less authoritarian <> more authoritarian and more planned economy <> more free market ? Like many other places, Spain has some local color to add to that and it's the regionalism <> centralism axis.

People who vote for PP hate the regions, want to send the tanks to Catalonia and the Basque country and have every single thing in Barcelona decided in Madrid. (I exaggerate, but you see what I mean).

Traditionally so it has been with PSOE. A marginal bit less, but really, very very marginal.

Podemos, apart from being an actual left wing party, has introduced a radical, radical innovation to Spanish politics, the idea that maybe we can, like, not hate the Catalans and Basques completely, that perhaps we can talk about how the Spanish state is organized instead of insisting that the 1975 constitution organized perfectly, flawlessly and forever and touching it is Hitler.

With that context, I can explain how I see the rebellion of the barons of the PSOE, but of course, this is just my view.

Pedro Sanchez, the PSOE leader, is caught between a Catalan rock and a hard right wing place. If he tells the party to abstain during the debate for investiture, allowing Rajoy to be invested, he would lose a lot of votes, the votes of all of those deluded boomers who vote PSOE because they think it's a left-wing party. Pedro Sanchez himself, also, doesn't strike me as being completely sold to the blairite, third wayish way of making right wing policies while pretending differently.

If, instead, he tries to become PM then he needs Podemos, but he also needs the Basque and Catalan regional parties. Not just in terms ofMPs, which he does, also in that Podemos has a firm position that any alliance with them passes through allowing a referendum for self-determination in Catalonia. And as I explained above, many, MANY leftists in Spain south of the Ebro river will rather have another PP term than giving the Catalans an inch. PSOE would, likely, lose many votes from that. From that and from the inevitable media onslaught.

So for now PSOE's strategy has been to oppose Rajoy's investiture, hoping that something gave in. An internal rebellion at Partido Popular, the courts closing down the PP completely, a corruption scandal so big it couldn't be ignored (LOL, we've broken every record this one then some). And, mostly, they were hoping that the massive, festering corruption scandals of the PP would mean more votes for PSOE or whoever in the second set of elections. But then right wing voters grew disillusioned with Ciudadanos and gave their votes to PP again, proving that whoever votes PP votes them even if Mariano Rajoy shows up at their home personally steals their wallet and rapes their children.

The PSOE barons in rebellion are blairite, third way assholes who would just as well eliminate the S from PSOE, but don't because they know many people vote them thinking that the S still applies. They'd rather support Rajoy to avoid a possible electoral defeat in a hypothetical third round of ellections and then bet the farm in being aggressive in the opposition and in spinning the narrative of "we supported Rajoy out of responsability towards teh country" which is, by the way, the line the media was hammering this summer when I visited. I am not super clear on what Pedro Sanchez's strategy could be as of now.

About the corruption scandals in Spain, just one quick note: In a notoriously corrupt country, what's going on right now has gone above and beyond anything anyone imagined. We've out-zimbabwed Zimbabwe.

# ? Sep 28, 2016 22:38

MeLKoR: Dec 23, 2004; by FactsAreUseless

GaussianCopula posted:

German politicians advocating for what is best for Germany - call the police?

The European Central Bank is implementing policies that benefit the whole European Union instead of just Germany at the expense of the rest? Outrageous! :argh:

# ? Sep 29, 2016 04:11

TheDeadlyShoe: Feb 14, 2014

Dawncloack posted:

About the corruption scandals in Spain, just one quick note: In a notoriously corrupt country, what's going on right now has gone above and beyond anything anyone imagined. We've out-zimbabwed Zimbabwe.

I tried to read about this, but googling was kind of confusing since there seem to have been so many different groups of arrests in the past year.

I like the part where they just gave politicians corporate credit cards.

# ? Sep 29, 2016 04:21

His Divine Shadow: Aug 7, 2000; I'm not a fascist. I'm a priest. Fascists dress up in black and tell people what to do.

Nitrousoxide posted:

What, are you surprised?

# ? Sep 29, 2016 06:06

Fat Samurai: Feb 16, 2011; To go quickly is foolish. To go slowly is prudent. Not to go; that is wisdom.

TheDeadlyShoe posted:

I tried to read about this, but googling was kind of confusing since there seem to have been so many different groups of arrests in the past year.

I like the part where they just gave politicians corporate credit cards.

Let me see:

The ruling party has 2 mayor things going on which may or may not be linked: basically everyone involved with Valencia (4th biggest city on Spain) Town Hall, up to and including three presidents in a row have been taking bribes, having mostly to do with building permits and public works. This may or may not be related to the second scandal, regarding laundering money and even more bribes in the national party.

Andalucian PSOE is accused of embezzlement, taking money from formation courses for unemployed people. It's less severe that what the PP is involved in, but bad enough that the ruling party can use it to cover their own stuff.

The credit card thing had to do with Caja Madrid, a bankrupt bank that handed out unregistered credit cards to their directives as extra salary. A Caja is basically a bank that doesn't have to earn profits, but rather improve the quality of life in their region (social programs, financing infrastructure, that sort of thing), and thus their board of directors is composed of politicians, syndicalist, etc... instead of people who knows how to run a bank. It's not (comparatively) a lot of money, but coming from a bank that sold complex financial stuff that made their customers lose A LOT of money and then had to be rescued, it's kind of insulting.

There is also the problem with Pujol, the founder and former president of the right-wing CiU (governing party in Catalu�a), who was found hiding quite a bit of money in several tax havens. Curiously, this happened at the same time that his political heir, M�s, was pushing for Catalonian independence after his popularity dropped like a stone after four years of budget cuts.

Spain is fun.

Fat Samurai fucked around with this message at 08:00 on Sep 29, 2016

# ? Sep 29, 2016 07:56

Antifa Poltergeist: Jun 3, 2004; "We're not laughing with you, we're laughing at you"

To be fair,the last 8 years have showed that bankers are equally incompetent at running Banks as everyone else. Also lol,Caja is buying one of the largest banks in Portugal.

Ps:wait its Caja Bank,not the regional ones.goddammit spain be creative at naming things.

Antifa Poltergeist fucked around with this message at 09:17 on Sep 29, 2016

# ? Sep 29, 2016 09:08

Pedro De Heredia: May 30, 2006

Dawncloack posted:

With that context, I can explain how I see the rebellion of the barons of the PSOE, but of course, this is just my view.

Pedro Sanchez, the PSOE leader, is caught between a Catalan rock and a hard right wing place. If he tells the party to abstain during the debate for investiture, allowing Rajoy to be invested, he would lose a lot of votes, the votes of all of those deluded boomers who vote PSOE because they think it's a left-wing party. Pedro Sanchez himself, also, doesn't strike me as being completely sold to the blairite, third wayish way of making right wing policies while pretending differently.

If, instead, he tries to become PM then he needs Podemos, but he also needs the Basque and Catalan regional parties. Not just in terms ofMPs, which he does, also in that Podemos has a firm position that any alliance with them passes through allowing a referendum for self-determination in Catalonia. And as I explained above, many, MANY leftists in Spain south of the Ebro river will rather have another PP term than giving the Catalans an inch. PSOE would, likely, lose many votes from that. From that and from the inevitable media onslaught.

So for now PSOE's strategy has been to oppose Rajoy's investiture, hoping that something gave in. An internal rebellion at Partido Popular, the courts closing down the PP completely, a corruption scandal so big it couldn't be ignored (LOL, we've broken every record this one then some). And, mostly, they were hoping that the massive, festering corruption scandals of the PP would mean more votes for PSOE or whoever in the second set of elections. But then right wing voters grew disillusioned with Ciudadanos and gave their votes to PP again, proving that whoever votes PP votes them even if Mariano Rajoy shows up at their home personally steals their wallet and rapes their children.

The PSOE barons in rebellion are blairite, third way assholes who would just as well eliminate the S from PSOE, but don't because they know many people vote them thinking that the S still applies. They'd rather support Rajoy to avoid a possible electoral defeat in a hypothetical third round of ellections and then bet the farm in being aggressive in the opposition and in spinning the narrative of "we supported Rajoy out of responsability towards teh country" which is, by the way, the line the media was hammering this summer when I visited. I am not super clear on what Pedro Sanchez's strategy could be as of now.

This is not wrong, but I think you're giving a bit too much credit to Sanchez, and too little credit to the PSOE barons, by saying Sanchez is caught between a rock and a hard place. The hard place ("becoming PM with Podemos and Basque-Catalan regional parties") doesn't really exist. PSOE have essentially lost in the elections twice, and they have no political space to try and turn those defeats into a victory.

# ? Sep 29, 2016 13:38

His Divine Shadow: Aug 7, 2000; I'm not a fascist. I'm a priest. Fascists dress up in black and tell people what to do.

Lecture about trumpism/europe/brexit:

EDIT, doesn't seem to be working anymore, youtube link available now
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bkm2Vfj42FY

His Divine Shadow fucked around with this message at 04:48 on Sep 30, 2016

# ? Sep 29, 2016 17:48

Dawncloack: Nov 26, 2007; ECKS DEE!; Nap Ghost

Pedro De Heredia posted:

This is not wrong, but I think you're giving a bit too much credit to Sanchez, and too little credit to the PSOE barons, by saying Sanchez is caught between a rock and a hard place. The hard place ("becoming PM with Podemos and Basque-Catalan regional parties") doesn't really exist. PSOE have essentially lost in the elections twice, and they have no political space to try and turn those defeats into a victory.

Well, you are probably right, it is very unlikely that they can create an alternative coalition to Rajoy and its ilk. But I wonder about your saying that he lots two elections. Not because you aren't right, he didn't fare well the first time (though better than expected) and lost votes the second time. But if he managed to be PM then none of that would matter, and then no one would consider that he lost two elections, would them? Not that I like it but that's the system we have.

That's academic, of course, the rebellion probably means even less chances of votes.

What's your take of the situation ?

VVVVVVVVVV oooooh right. Thanks for clearing that one up for me.

Dawncloack fucked around with this message at 00:12 on Sep 30, 2016

# ? Sep 29, 2016 22:05

YF-23: Feb 17, 2011; My god, it's full of cat!

I think the point was that with the second defeat and the vote shrinkage PSOE and Sanchez lost the momentum that could've put them in position to strongarm internal factions and form a government. The second defeat means that the vision of a Spain under a PSOE/Podemos/regionalist coalition did not inspire, and political capital invested in that has disappeared.

Caveat: I'm not Spanish and haven't been following the Spanish political scene closely, but when I saw PSOE's position after the second election grow weaker I basically felt that it would be incredibly difficult to pull off what could've looked like a likely left-wing coalition.

# ? Sep 29, 2016 22:22

His Divine Shadow: Aug 7, 2000; I'm not a fascist. I'm a priest. Fascists dress up in black and tell people what to do.

So deutsche bank eh, is this a good time to be putting your savings into I dunno, gold bars or something?

# ? Sep 30, 2016 07:29

MiddleOne: Feb 17, 2011

Dollars are way more secure than gold, in fact, they could just move the entire bank to the US.

# ? Sep 30, 2016 07:31

Grouchio: Aug 31, 2014

France starts airstrikes against ISIS.

WHAT TOOK YOU SO LONG!? :psyduck:

# ? Sep 30, 2016 07:33

Kassad: Nov 12, 2005; It's about time.

They've been doing air strikes since the Charlie Hebdo attacks in 2015. It's just that the aircraft carrier has to be pulled back every few months for maintenance. Guess it just arrived back in the region.

# ? Sep 30, 2016 08:13

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# ? May 21, 2024 08:34

Toplowtech: Aug 31, 2004

Grouchio posted:

France starts airstrikes against ISIS.

WHAT TOOK YOU SO LONG!?

It's because you clearly do not know nor understand the French loving hate-love with administrative precision. A stamp was probably missing on some papers. Also it's like the third mission of this kind. We did air-strike them before.

# ? Sep 30, 2016 08:15

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > EU Politics: I miss Renaults(don't make fun of me)

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