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CountFosco posted:I don't really like it that much because to me it feels like it oversimplifies things, takes some things for granted, but I only skimmed it so I haven't really given it a fair shake. It's done by M. A-D. though so I'm sure it has its merits and it's well-researched. Yikes, some of that art is brutal, and not in the brutality of a post-future society 'brutal'. Everything also seems to skew way more 'generic fantasy'. It's kinda like reading a crazy person's journal, part insanity, part insight and part alien. It's a neat idea though, Urth is a pretty cool setting. I could imagine BoTNS making an absolutely amazing adventure game though, with weird archaic EGA pixel art like those old PC games.
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May 15, 2016 21:47
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Space-Bird posted:It's kinda like reading a crazy person's journal, part insanity, part insight and part alien. This accurately describes anything produced by anyone who's particularly devoted to Wolfean theorycrafting. And I say this with all due affection, as a person who has a copy of Lexicon Urthus in a protective slipcase because I saw it in a rare bookshop and thought, "Why not."
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May 16, 2016 04:03
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Man, I just finished Book of the New Sun for the first time, and whoa nelly  I'm sure there is so much I missed, but the last fifty pages are pure mindfuck. I think this might be the literal first time anything has done a time travel plot twist and had it work, I didn't think that was even possible.
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Jul 17, 2016 16:18
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ManlyGrunting posted:Man, I just finished Book of the New Sun for the first time, and whoa nelly Now you can read Book of the Long Sun, which is less challenging but much more fun, in my opinion.
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Jul 17, 2016 17:12
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I really loved Long Sun and Short Sun. I want to get around to a New Sun reread after finishing them, especially after some people visit Nessus in Short Sun.
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Jul 17, 2016 20:07
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Short sun is my favorite of the bunch, personally. You can see the "twist" coming from miles away but it doesn't detract from the story in the slightest and a lot of it feels like one long meditation on identity and what it means in all the different contexts you're presented with.
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Jul 17, 2016 20:32
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anilEhilated posted:Short sun is my favorite of the bunch, personally. You can see the "twist" coming from miles away but it doesn't detract from the story in the slightest and a lot of it feels like one long meditation on identity and what it means in all the different contexts you're presented with. I read all of those books before turning 18, so I obviously didn't understand poo poo from it, but Short Sun was easily my least favorite and I still haven't re-read it. I bet when I go back to it later this month it will be my favorite.
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Jul 18, 2016 00:24
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In terms of density, intensity, and interest, New Sun is probably the best. But by golly do I have the most fun with Long Sun. Silk is a baller. On Blue's Waters still hasn't done a lot for me compared to the rest of 'em, but In Green's Jungle's leaves me giddy every time. Silk is a baller. I have to pace myself with the Solar Cycle books or I wouldn't give any of Wolfe's other works the attention they generally deserve. Are there any other authors who really hit the mark with the "reread with increased pleasure" aspect? I don't generally want more than two passes out of most works.
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Jul 18, 2016 19:33
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I keep coming back to Eco's novels, Foucault's Pendulum in particular. I think it's more common in Literature, few of that in genre fiction. Only other thing in fantasy I can think of is Steven Erikson and that's because he hits you with so much information the foreshadowing gets lost and forgotten. It feels nice to reread, though.
anilEhilated fucked around with this message at 20:02 on Jul 18, 2016 |
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Jul 18, 2016 19:58
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anilEhilated posted:I keep coming back to Eco's novels, Foucault's Pendulum in particular. I think it's more common in Literature, few of that in genre fiction. Only other thing in fantasy I can think of is Steven Erikson and that's because he hits you with so much information the foreshadowing gets lost and forgotten. It feels nice to reread, though. I tried Foucalt's Pendulum (ten years ago) and found it really unrewarding. I'll give Eco a shot again eventually, but I felt like his work reeked of effort. I always liked the New Sun because you can turn your brain off and really enjoy it. It feels seamless.
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Jul 18, 2016 20:29
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Chichevache posted:I tried Foucalt's Pendulum (ten years ago) and found it really unrewarding. I'll give Eco a shot again eventually, but I felt like his work reeked of effort. Foucault's Pendulum is unapologeticlly a data dump novel, and it's dumping (unlike, say, a Neal Stephenson novel) is really focused on just one subject. Eco also decided to frame the whole thing like a film noir narration, which can be a bit off-putting if you don't know the reference.
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Jul 18, 2016 23:20
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Umberto Eco is my favorite author who isn't named Gene Wolfe, and I always tell people to read Baudolino first because it's a good introduction to his style that's super readable and tons of fun. In other news, I read Castleview a couple weeks ago and still don't know quite what to think.
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Jul 19, 2016 05:12
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Nebakenezzer posted:Foucault's Pendulum is unapologeticlly a data dump novel, Your phrasing is perfect. my bony fealty posted:Umberto Eco is my favorite author who isn't named Gene Wolfe, and I always tell people to read Baudolino first because it's a good introduction to his style that's super readable and tons of fun. I'll give that a shot at some point. Thanks for the rec.
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Jul 19, 2016 05:48
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it's real annoying how few authors write with his density.
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Jul 21, 2016 23:14
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I just finished Book of the New Sun for the first time and I guess I had a different interpretation of the time travel twist than everyone else. I didn't see it as a single timeline where interventions were taking place to keep Severian alive. Based on the theory of time he learned from the false Malrubius, the way I feel is that the universal day keeps repeating and those outside of time watch and learn a lesson from it. Wherever the previous Severian failed, they set up circumstances to assist him on the next repetition of the day and then watch to see how far he gets. When that Severian fails, they make a note, put their pawns back into place, and add the next assist. The Severian we follow is not a clone, but rather a very similar person to several previous people named Severian. It's kind of similar to Edge of Tomorrow, but rather than the same Severian resetting, it's time itself that resets and tries again. It's very Spinozan in its approach to causality and free will. That said, I do think there are a couple of instances where Severian literally dies and comes back to life, like with the Avern flower, but that's why the hierodules are interested in him in the first place. In any case, I like how time itself is a loose concept in the story. There appear to be parallel universes that can look back at potential origins, but you while you can observe other timelines, you can't actually exist in a timeline that your universe didn't spawn from. It's a neat idea. Anyway, I'm off to read Urth of the New Sun.
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Aug 15, 2016 06:56
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So I'm about halfway through Claw of the Conciliator and I knew what I was getting into with this series but I don't think I'm going to be able to finish it. Not because of the style but because I have nothing but contempt for Severian. It was his off-handed mention of his old Master's dildo and the whole "abuse" thing that did it. I realized he spent a good chunk of the prior book hitting women and being proud of not raping Dorcas and that his whole memoir is him basically explaining away being an awful human being. I know you can argue he's a product of his merry guild of rapists but it's hard to believe he's changed if he's trying to avoid taking responsibility for this stuff when he's writing this as the autarch. And I feel like this is intentional on Gene Wolfe's part but it's really hard to give a poo poo about what he's saying and doing when I kind of just want him to rot in a cell. It's a shame too because I love all the weird tonal shifts in the book between pulp and triply scenes like the botanic gardens. Shark Sandwich fucked around with this message at 00:37 on Sep 29, 2016 |
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Sep 29, 2016 00:35
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Slaughterhouse-Ive posted:So I'm about halfway through Claw of the Conciliator and I knew what I was getting into with this series but I don't think I'm going to be able to finish it. Not because of the style but because I have nothing but contempt for Severian. I both agree with you, and encourage you to keep reading. Severian has some seemingly very slimy moments that are tough to parse through the fog of his memoir. I think there's a lot more going on that's worth a read, but I totally understand. I just had to delete a book off of my kindle because it veered into some territory I was not OK with at all. In fact, Dorcas' entire story is pretty heartbreaking, and it's only worse through the lens of a guy like Severian...
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Sep 29, 2016 00:43
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Yeah I'm going to finish Claw and see how I feel. I know Gene Wolfe isn't writing this stuff to get his rocks off but reading another 400 pages of the memoir of someone that repulses me seems a little daunting. What's weird is that I'm not normally a shrinking violet about this kind of thing but the way Wolfe has Severian write about it makes it seem more real.
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Sep 29, 2016 01:07
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He is a torturer. You are reading the memoirs of a torturer. E:it's right there in the title of the first book
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Sep 29, 2016 01:13
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sebmojo posted:He is a torturer. You are reading the memoirs of a torturer. This sounds so straightforward but is incredibly important to remember for one reason that Slaughterhouse-Ive has touched on: unlike essentially every other writer, Wolfe does not try to give Severian a heart of gold and have him fight against the organization that raised him. Dude is a torturer and he's going to torture some people.
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Sep 29, 2016 01:15
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It's the sexual violence more than the torture part. I can buy Severian explaining away torture and executions by saying he's just doing what the rulers want. He was raised to do this and it's a more brutal society. But the more slimy behavior he engages in is where I find it hard to empathize. Even the guild seems recognize it's messed up since calling rape "abuse" is their "out". Edit: My main reason for posting about this is because I can see why this book is so popular but I'm curious how others have grappled with Severian being kind of a monster or if Gene Wolfe is going to blow my mind about the nature of this guy as the stories progresses. Shark Sandwich fucked around with this message at 01:50 on Sep 29, 2016 |
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Sep 29, 2016 01:41
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I think you may be struggling with the fact that you don't need to like a protagonist to find their story interesting. Severian is a bastard, you're not really supposed to like him or support his decisions, but they make for a very compelling story.
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Sep 29, 2016 01:54
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Yeah I mean I've read stuff where the nominal protagonist is a bastard but I got a little blindsided here since someone earlier in this thread mentioned Baudolino and I was expecting a science fantasy version of that. Thanks for the feedback guys. I'm going to take a break from it for a couple of days to reset how I'm reading this and get back into it. I kind of feel a little silly for posting about this now because I realize that Gene Wolfe is messing with me by subverting the whole male power fantasy trope and I took the bait.
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Sep 29, 2016 02:16
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Don't feel silly for taking Wolfe's bait, he makes the best traps around. Also, what was confusing about the Baudolino reference, I haven't read that.Ornamented Death posted:This sounds so straightforward but is incredibly important to remember for one reason that Slaughterhouse-Ive has touched on: unlike essentially every other writer, Wolfe does not try to give Severian a heart of gold and have him fight against the organization that raised him. Dude is a torturer and he's going to torture some people. Spoilers up to Citadel and maybe Urth: Severian may not have a heart of gold, but he does gradually abandon and betray the guild, gains the self-awareness to realise how terrible he is, and eventually shuts the guild down, IIRC. That's what he's like at the beginning, but not the end.
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Sep 29, 2016 05:00
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Better avoid Paradise Lost then I heard the protagonist of that one is a real fucker lol
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Sep 29, 2016 05:08
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I can't really discuss this without spoiling the rest of the books but there's a reason why Severian is written to be a complete bastard. Hell, IIRC Wolfe said in an interview he went out of his way for this - he made him a torturer because it was the most despicable career he could think of. There's another aspect of him that I don't think was emphasised too much yet: Severian is scary. And that's pretty important too, or at least a theme Wolfe explores in the other two Solar Cycle series. e: The Baudolino analogy doesn't really work here - I mean, yeah, they both have unreliable narrators and reward attentive reading and historical awareness but that's about it. anilEhilated fucked around with this message at 10:34 on Sep 29, 2016 |
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Sep 29, 2016 10:31
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I read an article about the Book of the New Sun (I can't remember where I read it) where Gene Wolfe (or maybe Michael Andre-Drussi) points out that even though Jesus Christ is a carpenter, the Bible only depicts him using his creative skill once, to make a scourge. I'm not biblically inclined, so I haven't read through the new testament to check the accuracy of the statement, but if it is true then I think that adds a very interesting dimension to Severian. Who I think we can all recognize as a messianic figure, even if Wolfe denies it at times.
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Sep 29, 2016 15:52
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It's also important to remember that it's entirely plausible that Severian never had sexual relations with any of these women.
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Sep 29, 2016 16:19
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Atlas Hugged posted:It's also important to remember that it's entirely plausible that Severian never had sexual relations with any of these women. That is true! Every other autarch is a castrato. It wouldn't be too much of a stretch to say Severian is as well and has too much pride to admit it. One thing I've been noticing lately is how much Gene Wolfe is influenced by le Mort de Arthur. It shows up in almost all of his work, and despite the Roman trappings of BotNS there is still a tinge of Arthuriana. One important tale is the Fisher King. He's the Guardian of the Holy Grail (the Claw of the conciliator) and is invariably lame. In medieval times a wound to the thigh or other lameness was often a euphemism for genital injuries. Pointing out that Sir Stabalot had his dick broken in a fight was considered rude and emasculating at the time. Instead, you said that Sir Stabalot took a grievous wound to the thigh, or had been lamed. I haven't read BotNS since I started up with Arthuriana, but I'm looking forward to trying to pick this scene out in the future: wikipedia posted:The injury is a common theme throughout the telling of the grail quest. Although some iteration has two kings present, one or both are injured, most commonly in the thigh. The wound is sometimes presented as a punishment, usually for philandering. In Parzival, specifically, the king is injured by the bleeding lance as punishment for taking a wife, which was against the code of the “Grail Guardians”.[2] A thigh wound has been interpreted by many scholars in Arthurian literature as a genital wound. In some early story lines, Percival asking the Fisher King the healing question cures the wound. The nature of the question differs between Perceval and Parzival, but the central theme is that the Fisher King can be healed only if Percival asks “the question”.[3]
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Sep 29, 2016 16:50
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Atlas Hugged posted:It's also important to remember that it's entirely plausible that Severian never had sexual relations with any of these women. I always sort of read it as He did have relations with Thecla, but they were super awkward and sort of traumatizing for him which is why he doesn't mention it until his memories start to gel with Thecla's. Also the entire point of Severian is that he starts as a moral black hole and gradually awakens to something more. Wolfe is a very, very Catholic authour.
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Sep 29, 2016 16:50
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Atlas Hugged posted:It's also important to remember that it's entirely plausible that Severian never had sexual relations with any of these women. Well, with one exception -- he almost certainly slept with Thecla. He denies it himself, but later on her personality fragment pretty much confirms it.
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Sep 29, 2016 17:04
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Chichevache posted:I read an article about the Book of the New Sun (I can't remember where I read it) where Gene Wolfe (or maybe Michael Andre-Drussi) points out that even though Jesus Christ is a carpenter, the Bible only depicts him using his creative skill once, to make a scourge. I'm not biblically inclined, so I haven't read through the new testament to check the accuracy of the statement, but if it is true then I think that adds a very interesting dimension to Severian. Who I think we can all recognize as a messianic figure, even if Wolfe denies it at times. That's in one of the essays in The Castle of the Otter. I can't remember if it's the only thing He makes, but it's in John 2:15. Wolfe also points out that a crucifix is made by a carpenter. Atlas Hugged posted:It's also important to remember that it's entirely plausible that Severian never had sexual relations with any of these women. Plausible, but not (imo) interesting or likely. (Edit 2: I just had a shower and realised I was reading this as "Severian never scored", whereas you meant it as "Severian lied about loving someone at least once", which is yeah very likely, though I'm not sure who he lied about. Semi-relatedly, Dorcas is a Jocasta figure, goes nicely with lame Severian; Oedipus means "clubfoot", from when he was abandoned at birth. Chichevache posted:That is true! Every other autarch is a castrato. It wouldn't be too much of a stretch to say Severian is as well and has too much pride to admit it. Urth spoilers: This is only true of the previous one (and the first); it's a result of failing to bring the New Sun, to prevent a failure from establishing a dynasty. This isn't true of Severian, so there's no reason to assume Little Severian isn't in full working order. On the other hand, he never mentions kids, either. Also, that's not what castrato means  Interesting stuff about Arthuriana though.E: Gotta get round to that New Sun reread. Safety Biscuits fucked around with this message at 17:35 on Sep 29, 2016 |
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Sep 29, 2016 17:12
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Chichevache posted:That is true! Every other autarch is a castrato. It wouldn't be too much of a stretch to say Severian is as well and has too much pride to admit it. I vaguely recollect that the reason for that condition is that they tried and failed the new sun quest. e: f;b
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Sep 29, 2016 17:18
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Wolfe puts those unpleasant torture segments to good use -- not only for future character growth, but reflections on society and morality as well. Also Sword is far and away my favorite of the four. There are multiple scenes which send chills down my spine when I recall them, even if I haven't read them in years. Safety Biscuits posted:This isn't true of Severian, so there's no reason to assume Little Severian isn't in full working order. Little Severian gets burned to a crisp on the top of Mount Typhon
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Sep 29, 2016 17:33
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Right, I only meant that he, as a teenager with no experience of women and having lived in an all male dorm, might be talking up his sexual experiences whereas the one he denies is plausibly the only one that happened. He may have been in the friendzone with Dorcas the whole time as she was lovers with someone else.
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Sep 29, 2016 17:43
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Hammer Bro. posted:Wolfe puts those unpleasant torture segments to good use -- not only for future character growth, but reflections on society and morality as well. Sword blew me away too, the thing with Baldanders, the Wizard Guys in the hut, and the Cacogen were all amazing parts of the story. That Typhon thing had that really weird non-sequitur single sentence that made me very uncomfortable.
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Sep 29, 2016 17:43
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New Sun demands a reread by necessity. I mean some characters move backwards in time, and in some ways the story is much different the second time through. I find it a really interesting connection to the way Wolfe uses the the story itself as a metaphor for writing and authorship, and I like to imagine the bit about multiple Severians relating to how the reader will interpret things differently with successive readthroughs. I think he almost outright states this at the end of the series though I forget exactly.
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Sep 29, 2016 19:12
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I'm actually about to finish a binge reread, just started Citadel last night. Unsurprisingly it loving owns. Re: Severian's sexual adventures, in Sword when he rescues the slave girl on Lake Diaturna, he talks about how he entered thecla while captive but not chained, and he entered the slave girl when she was chained but free. I'm pretty sure he explicitly talked about banging Dorcas and Cyiacria (sp?) at the Archon's party before he was supposed to strangle her.
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Sep 29, 2016 23:45
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Every time I see this thread get bumped I have to check it to make sure he didn't die.
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Sep 29, 2016 23:57
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anilEhilated posted:I can't really discuss this without spoiling the rest of the books but there's a reason why Severian is written to be a complete bastard. Hell, IIRC Wolfe said in an interview he went out of his way for this - he made him a torturer because it was the most despicable career he could think of. What do you mean by scary in this context?
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Sep 30, 2016 05:39
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