UKMT September 2016: Arguing in good faith with sources where necessary

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > UKMT September 2016: Arguing in good faith with sources where necessary

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XMNN: Apr 26, 2008; I am incredibly stupid

NotJustANumber99 posted:

I question how effective a future government could be formed by someone currently unable to fill shadow cabinet posts.

well if you believe them then their primary objection to him is that he is unpopular, so if he won they would have no problem implementing the left wing policies they are totally for real on board with

# ? Sep 29, 2016 23:59

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# ? May 26, 2024 03:37

Not So Fast: Dec 27, 2007

Yes, I question how effective that hypothetical government would be when its half made up of petulant children who run away when they don't get their way.

# ? Sep 29, 2016 23:59

WhiskeyWhiskers: Oct 14, 2013; "هذا ليس عادلاً."
"هذا ليس عادلاً على الإطلاق."
"كان هناك وقت الآن."
(السياق الخفي: للقراءة)

Do we know how many might be up for deselection yet?

# ? Sep 30, 2016 00:00

jabby: Oct 27, 2010

NotJustANumber99 posted:

I question how effective a future government could be formed by someone currently unable to fill shadow cabinet posts.

Truly a hot take.

# ? Sep 30, 2016 00:09

TinTower: Apr 21, 2010; You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.

Only five miles from Witney:

https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/781615465219186688

# ? Sep 30, 2016 00:10

The Saurus: Dec 3, 2006; by Smythe

Could Labour propose a one-off (or even yearly) wealth tax on the richest 0.X% and then give every British Citizen X000 pounds to stimulate the economy?

Seems like it might be popular, good for the economy and remind people what socialism is really about. Surely it would be difficult for the papers to spin against them too.

# ? Sep 30, 2016 03:19

ronya: Nov 8, 2010; I'm the normal one.

You hate ridden fucks will regret your words when you eventually grow up.

Peace.

You should consider the public response to the Mansion Tax during the 2015 GE. The "temporary embarrassed millionaire" attitude is contagious, and a politics of eat-the-rich does not resonate well with the aspirational public at large, no matter how well it plays to a limited Labour audience.

Anyway it has been proposed before, including by many prominent economists (note that Rogoff does not bother to stop at 0.1%, he goes straight for the tithe levy - mainstream economists tend to be dismissive about one-off transfers, rightly so).

The obvious problem with one-off levies is the incredible temptation to make them less one-off. You couldn't even hold off for the span of one post, what more an entire election campaign?

# ? Sep 30, 2016 05:08

The Saurus: Dec 3, 2006; by Smythe

You're right, it should be a yearly wealth/mansion tax to redistribute wealth directly to the British people.

Putting money directly into the pockets of the working and middle classes is one of the best ways to stimulate growth and the economy, leaving it in the hands of the rich so they can sit on a giant pile of wealth like scrooge mcduck is one of the worst ways.

# ? Sep 30, 2016 07:17

goddamnedtwisto: Dec 31, 2004; If you ask me about the mole people in the London Underground, I WILL be forced to kill you; Fun Shoe

ronya posted:

You should consider the public response to the Mansion Tax during the 2015 GE. The "temporary embarrassed millionaire" attitude is contagious, and a politics of eat-the-rich does not resonate well with the aspirational public at large, no matter how well it plays to a limited Labour audience.

Anyway it has been proposed before, including by many prominent economists (note that Rogoff does not bother to stop at 0.1%, he goes straight for the tithe levy - mainstream economists tend to be dismissive about one-off transfers, rightly so).

The obvious problem with one-off levies is the incredible temptation to make them less one-off. You couldn't even hold off for the span of one post, what more an entire election campaign?

I still remember the Tories screaming about "POLITICS OF JEALOUSY!!!" while simultaneously promising to slash benefits.

# ? Sep 30, 2016 07:28

Firos: Apr 30, 2007; Staying abreast of the latest developments in jam communism

goddamnedtwisto posted:

I still remember the Tories screaming about "POLITICS OF JEALOUSY!!!" while simultaneously promising to slash benefits.

B-b-b-but what about when I want to buy a �20m home??? I'll have to pay MORE for it!

# ? Sep 30, 2016 07:29

GEORGE W BUSHI: Jul 1, 2012

I'm still not over the episode of Question Time with Ed Miliband and Mylene Klass.

# ? Sep 30, 2016 07:31

MrL_JaKiri: Sep 23, 2003; A bracing glass of carrot juice!

I'm still not over Rogoff mostly being famous because he can't use Excel

# ? Sep 30, 2016 07:48

ronya: Nov 8, 2010; I'm the normal one.

You hate ridden fucks will regret your words when you eventually grow up.

Peace.

goddamnedtwisto posted:

I still remember the Tories screaming about "POLITICS OF JEALOUSY!!!" while simultaneously promising to slash benefits.

not to put too fine a point on it... the noisier advocates of the mansion tax really had a lot of trouble with message discipline and credibility

# ? Sep 30, 2016 07:52

Spangly A: May 14, 2009; God help you if ever you're caught on these shores

A man's ambition must indeed be small
To write his name upon a shithouse wall

Baron Corbyn posted:

I'm still not over the episode of Question Time with Ed Miliband and Mylene Klass.

We aren't allowed to have socialism until someone is able to both be an MP and absolutely savage mylene klass at the same time.

# ? Sep 30, 2016 07:54

ronya: Nov 8, 2010; I'm the normal one.

You hate ridden fucks will regret your words when you eventually grow up.

Peace.

MrL_JaKiri posted:

I'm still not over Rogoff mostly being famous because he can't use Excel

he's more famous for then not backing down on the central claim of debt->low growth

# ? Sep 30, 2016 07:55

Spangly A: May 14, 2009; God help you if ever you're caught on these shores

A man's ambition must indeed be small
To write his name upon a shithouse wall

Sorry, are we going to pretend Rogoff didn't realise he'd rigged his own study?

e; it was his own bloody student that pointed it out to him*, it wasn't hard to notice he'd gone way beyond massaging data. The excel thing is just funny.

*no it wasn't, I'm on bad form lately. It was a uMass student.

Spangly A fucked around with this message at 08:01 on Sep 30, 2016

# ? Sep 30, 2016 07:56

The Saurus: Dec 3, 2006; by Smythe

So I just found out that multiple governments have a negative interest rate on money they borrow, because people are so desperate to invest the money they have in governent bonds.

In other words, the idea that we need to pay off the national debt or deficit is the worst kind of utter loving bollocks. We could borrow money, invest it into the British economy, make a massive return on that money via invest and pay the people who lent it to us less than they originally gave us.

national credit card tho :suicide:

# ? Sep 30, 2016 08:03

Spangly A: May 14, 2009; God help you if ever you're caught on these shores

A man's ambition must indeed be small
To write his name upon a shithouse wall

The Saurus posted:

In other words, the idea that we need to pay off the national debt or deficit is the worst kind of utter loving bollocks. We could borrow money, invest it into the British economy, make a massive return on that money via invest and pay the people who lent it to us less than they originally gave us.

It is entirely possible to lose money on a negative interest rate tho, say, by Brexiting and loving your economy sideways.

The clever thing to do would be to leverage as many low-interest bonds as hard as possible, hedge in euros, wait til Brexit, and then spend. I'm sure this would have absolutely no long term effects. None at all.

# ? Sep 30, 2016 08:06

LemonDrizzle: Mar 28, 2012; neoliberal shithead

Millennials are lazy and entitled whiners IMO: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37508968

quote:

People in their early 30s are half as wealthy as those now in their 40s were at the same age, a report finds.
Today's 30-something generation has missed out on house price increases and better pensions, according to research by the Institute for Fiscal Studies.
Those born in the early 1980s have an average wealth of �27,000 each, against the �53,000 those born in the 1970s had by the same age, said the IFS.
They will also find it harder to amass wealth in the future, it added.
The think tank found that people born in the early 1980s were the first post-war group not to have higher incomes in early adulthood than those born in the preceding decade.
"This is partly the result of the overall stagnation of working-age incomes," it said. "But it also reflects the fact that the great recession hit the pay and employment of young adults the hardest."
...
In addition, the study found that at the age of 30 only 40% owned their own home, compared with at least 55% of people born in the previous post-war decades.
"It looks like those born in the early 1980s are likely to find it harder than their predecessors to build up wealth in housing and pensions as they age," said report author Andrew Hood.
"They have much lower home-ownership rates in early adulthood than any other post-war cohort, and - outside the public sector - have much less access to generous defined benefit pension schemes than previous generations did at the same age."

# ? Sep 30, 2016 08:23

Zephro: Nov 23, 2000; I suppose I could part with one and still be feared...

ShaneMacGowansTeeth posted:

was it this month or last we had email chat? Anyway, I have someone who thinks they have the same gmail account as me, and look what just dropped into my inbox:

And look what I can do with it!

And the only clue that it's definitely not me is this:

I have this same problem. It's really hard to get it fixed - I phoned Apple after the dude signed up for an account and they didn't really know what to do. I could just steal all of this mystery man's online accounts to make the point that he's mistyping his email address but that seems kind of nasty. I once got a long emotional email about a visit to some dying relative that was cc'd to other members of the family so I emailed them and told them what was happening, but never heard back.

# ? Sep 30, 2016 08:27

Zephro: Nov 23, 2000; I suppose I could part with one and still be feared...

Malcolm XML posted:

Hmm wonder why millennials can't buy homes or save

Rentiers rule Britain

RREAM(ed)

Zephro fucked around with this message at 09:46 on Sep 30, 2016

# ? Sep 30, 2016 08:37

Dabir: Nov 10, 2012

Stupid money, it's not like we want you or anything... Dummy.

# ? Sep 30, 2016 08:42

His Divine Shadow: Aug 7, 2000; I'm not a fascist. I'm a priest. Fascists dress up in black and tell people what to do.

LemonDrizzle posted:

Millennials are lazy and entitled whiners IMO: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37508968

quote:
Those born in the early 1980s have an average wealth of �27,000 each, against the �53,000 those born in the 1970s had by the same age, said the IFS.

I'm a millenial?

# ? Sep 30, 2016 08:43

LemonDrizzle: Mar 28, 2012; neoliberal shithead

His Divine Shadow posted:

I'm a millenial?

Millennial = reached adulthood on or after the year 2000.

# ? Sep 30, 2016 08:46

His Divine Shadow: Aug 7, 2000; I'm not a fascist. I'm a priest. Fascists dress up in black and tell people what to do.

If that's defined as 18 then I guess I escaped by 1 year...

# ? Sep 30, 2016 08:58

TinTower: Apr 21, 2010; You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.

The Department for Exiting the European Union has no estimate of the cost of exiting the European Union.

# ? Sep 30, 2016 10:01

Rakosi: May 5, 2008; D&D: HASBARA SQUAD
NO-QUARTERMASTER

From the river (of Palestinian blood) to the sea (of Palestinian tears)

Still being reported that the services sector is business as usual in the aftermath of the Brexit referendum, and growth is being revised upwards.

# ? Sep 30, 2016 10:05

haakman: May 5, 2011

Rakosi posted:

Still being reported that the services sector is business as usual in the aftermath of the Brexit referendum, and growth is being revised upwards.

That's because nothing's happened yet?

# ? Sep 30, 2016 10:14

feedmegin: Jul 30, 2008

Rakosi posted:

Still being reported that the services sector is business as usual in the aftermath of the Brexit referendum, and growth is being revised upwards.

Well yes, because nothing has actually happened yet.

Edit: beaten like we will all be in the streets by Norsefire's stormtroopers once we invoke Article 50 and our economy descends into Weimar-style hyperinflation and chaos.

# ? Sep 30, 2016 10:17

Lord of the Llamas: Jul 9, 2002; EULER'VE TO SEE IT VENN SOMEONE CALLS IT THE WRONG THING AND PROVOKES MY WRATH

haakman posted:

That's because nothing's happened yet?

STOP FEARMONGERING.

# ? Sep 30, 2016 10:22

Guavanaut: Nov 27, 2009; Looking At Them Tittys
1969 - 1998; Toilet Rascal

Fearmongers will be able to sell in ounces and pounds, a new report has suggested.

# ? Sep 30, 2016 10:27

Gonzo McFee: Jun 19, 2010

https://twitter.com/jpublik/status/781761249428275200

# ? Sep 30, 2016 10:36

Rakosi: May 5, 2008; D&D: HASBARA SQUAD
NO-QUARTERMASTER

From the river (of Palestinian blood) to the sea (of Palestinian tears)

haakman posted:

That's because nothing's happened yet?

Said in a world where economies and bank shares are affected and dictated by market 'confidence' in a letter or statement by bank CEOs.

quote:

And shares in Germany�s largest lender have recovered some of their earlier losses, after CEO John Cryan told staff that the bank is still in solid shape.

In that memo, Cryan also said (via Reuters):

�We should look at the complete picture.

�Deutsche Bank has more than 20 million customers.

�We are and remain a strong Deutsche Bank.�

And this seems to have helped restore some confidence.

Deutsche�s shares are now down �only� 4% this morning, at �10.42, having been driven into single digits earlier. That still leaves them on track for a new record closing low.

To dismiss the referendum as "nothing happening" in the context of UK economical stability and growth in the aftermath, is a bit odd.

# ? Sep 30, 2016 10:39

ronya: Nov 8, 2010; I'm the normal one.

You hate ridden fucks will regret your words when you eventually grow up.

Peace.

banks have a strong self-reaffirming element due to their intrinsic nature as a maturity transformer - at any given time they are vulnerable to a liquidity crisis

countries are supposed to have a lot more short-term liquidity, and Carney easing on brexit can only help

# ? Sep 30, 2016 10:47

haakman: May 5, 2011

God I just can't be arsed. It's both too easy and too difficult to explain to you why short term market fluctuations did occur and have now stabilised, partly due to a fall in the value of Sterling counterbalancing said market drops and business eating it up whilst the going is good before the big old shitstorm on the horizon.

But hey, why bother arguing. Cool, Britain is booming. Britain prevails. Please come back in two years' time after A50 has been dropped and I'll eat my words. gently caress, I'll be happy to because funnily enough I don't actually want to be living in a country which is dying on its arse. You'll also have the added satisfaction of proving all those experts wrong.

# ? Sep 30, 2016 10:50

XMNN: Apr 26, 2008; I am incredibly stupid

Has anyone explained how we are going to export things to the EU without complying with EU regulations?

I assume Chinese companies aren't allowed to sell electronics or whatever that don't meet EU standards in the EU, right?

# ? Sep 30, 2016 11:00

Firos: Apr 30, 2007; Staying abreast of the latest developments in jam communism

haakman posted:

God I just can't be arsed. It's both too easy and too difficult to explain to you why short term market fluctuations did occur and have now stabilised, partly due to a fall in the value of Sterling counterbalancing said market drops and business eating it up whilst the going is good before the big old shitstorm on the horizon.

But hey, why bother arguing. Cool, Britain is booming. Britain prevails. Please come back in two years' time after A50 has been dropped and I'll eat my words. gently caress, I'll be happy to because funnily enough I don't actually want to be living in a country which is dying on its arse. You'll also have the added satisfaction of proving all those experts wrong.

Hey, at least 2 years down the line you'll have something to eat.

# ? Sep 30, 2016 11:02

tooterfish: Jul 13, 2013

XMNN posted:

Has anyone explained how we are going to export things to the EU without complying with EU regulations?

British products are inherently superior and already exceed all external regulations, stop spreading fear you loving traitor.

# ? Sep 30, 2016 11:11

Chocolate Teapot: May 8, 2009

XMNN posted:

Has anyone explained how we are going to export things to the EU without complying with EU regulations?

I assume Chinese companies aren't allowed to sell electronics or whatever that don't meet EU standards in the EU, right?

Make 2 of everything

# ? Sep 30, 2016 11:13

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# ? May 26, 2024 03:37

haakman: May 5, 2011

XMNN posted:

Has anyone explained how we are going to export things to the EU without complying with EU regulations?

I assume Chinese companies aren't allowed to sell electronics or whatever that don't meet EU standards in the EU, right?

There was an interesting piece on R4 yesterday about data and the EU. Apparently if we don't exactly mimic the upcoming EU regulation on data protection our data services are going to have a hard time cooperating/working with EU tech firms. (of course I bow to someone with more knowledge on this).

On the other hand, we can just load up sovereignty.exe.

# ? Sep 30, 2016 11:15

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