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Macunaima posted:Zionism and Palestinian nationalism are two sides to the same coin of primitive nationalism. One side really only acknowledges the other when it launches lopsided attacks. The other side is weaker, but wants to exterminate the other. Thank you for your insightful analysis.
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Sep 29, 2016 15:43
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Macunaima posted:Zionism and Palestinian nationalism are two sides to the same coin of primitive nationalism. One side really only acknowledges the other when it launches lopsided attacks. The other side is weaker, but wants to exterminate the other. Yes, the idea that Palestinians are a Hitler hivemind and that the only thing they want to do is exterminate all Jews is the justification Israel uses for their theft and oppression policies. It is, however, complete bullshit.
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Sep 29, 2016 15:50
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Cat Mattress posted:Global warming (and reckless consumption of groundwater) will bring peace to the Middle East by making sure that humans can no longer survive there at all. Just give it like 50 years, and all that territory people are killing and dying over will be worthless sterile sand. The water situation in the West Bank has been pretty bad too, thanks to aging and insufficient infrastructure that isn't getting fixed or upgraded due to various political disputes. While Palestinian communities routinely have their water supplies cut in the summer, this year, it got so bad that even settlements were affected by the water shortages.
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Sep 29, 2016 16:57
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"Makor Rishon", a settler propaganda rag financed by Sheldon Edelson, just came out with their "People of the Year" edition and lookie here who they chose to place on the cover:
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Sep 29, 2016 17:39
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Macunaima posted:Zionism and Palestinian nationalism are two sides to the same coin of primitive nationalism. One side really only acknowledges the other when it launches lopsided attacks. The other side is weaker, but wants to exterminate the other. If by 'weaker' you mean 'essentially nonexistent as a coherent ideology any longer [replaced by islamism] outside of leftist dissenters in the first world, and not sponsored by an actual sovereign state for decades, versus a state and ideology with the full-throated support of the most powerful country on earth, its ruling elite and all its allies', then no, even then you're still an idiot
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Sep 29, 2016 18:13
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emanresu tnuocca posted:"Makor Rishon", a settler propaganda rag financed by Sheldon Edelson, just came out with their "People of the Year" edition and lookie here who they chose to place on the cover: Who?
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Sep 29, 2016 20:10
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Dabir posted:Who?
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Sep 29, 2016 20:28
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Dabir posted:Who? Elor Azaria
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Sep 29, 2016 20:57
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Just out of curiosity; are there any actions\attitudes of the Palestinian people and\or Hamas that people itt condemn? I read this thread a lot and I often get the impression that people think Israel just kills and oppresses and makes people generally miserable for the fun of it like North Korea or something. And no doubt some Israelis do, I'd never suggest there aren't lots of legitimately bigoted Muslim-hating Jews in Israel. But I mean... the whole Hamas genocidal charter thing, does it not matter because they can never possibly achieve it, or because they're just kidding about it, or what? Both sides do lots of hosed up things, but Palestine's share of the condemnation always seems conspicuously absent from these conversations.
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Sep 30, 2016 01:53
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It's not just "some Jews in Israel", it's that the government both perpetrates and enables that abuse.
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Sep 30, 2016 01:58
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Secular Humanist posted:Just out of curiosity; are there any actions\attitudes of the Palestinian people and\or Hamas that people itt condemn? I read this thread a lot and I often get the impression that people think Israel just kills and oppresses and makes people generally miserable for the fun of it like North Korea or something. And no doubt some Israelis do, I'd never suggest there aren't lots of legitimately bigoted Muslim-hating Jews in Israel. But I mean... the whole Hamas genocidal charter thing, does it not matter because they can never possibly achieve it, or because they're just kidding about it, or what? Both sides do lots of hosed up things, but Palestine's share of the condemnation always seems conspicuously absent from these conversations. Well, it seems like both sides want to genocide the other because the consensus in the israeli government is that Palestine can neither have a state nor can the people be citizens of israel which leaves one alternative which is genocide, no different from the hamas charter, except Israel is actively pursuing its policy and Hamas is not.
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Sep 30, 2016 02:07
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Secular Humanist posted:Just out of curiosity; are there any actions\attitudes of the Palestinian people and\or Hamas that people itt condemn? I read this thread a lot and I often get the impression that people think Israel just kills and oppresses and makes people generally miserable for the fun of it like North Korea or something. And no doubt some Israelis do, I'd never suggest there aren't lots of legitimately bigoted Muslim-hating Jews in Israel. But I mean... the whole Hamas genocidal charter thing, does it not matter because they can never possibly achieve it, or because they're just kidding about it, or what? Both sides do lots of hosed up things, but Palestine's share of the condemnation always seems conspicuously absent from these conversations. Well there's the whole fact that when Hamas did gain power they didn't implement those aspects of the charter into law. There's also the fact that Hamas has since said that the charter is the way it is for historical reasons and they haven't actually appealed to it. Versus the government of Israel not only enshrining its hate but acting on it. And of course if you care to actually read through the thread plenty of actions of Palestinians are considered unjustified. The rocket attacks for instance are largely condemned in this thread. I do find it interesting though that for this thread alone there are dozens of pages of discussion about various atrocities Israel has wrought, and yet the question you choose to ask is why Palestinians aren't condemned as well for a charter Hamas wrote in 1988. Why is it the charter that you wish to bring up in the year 2016 I/P discussion? Surely there are more recent and relevant things you could focus on (even assuming none of the above is true about Hamas moving away from the charter in the first place mind you). And if it is indeed the most egregious thing you can think of, why can't you come to the conclusion of why Israel gets the lion's share of condemnation? I'll give you a hint, it has to do with which side is orders of magnitude more culpable for the continuation of the problem.
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Sep 30, 2016 06:24
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Secular Humanist posted:Just out of curiosity; are there any actions\attitudes of the Palestinian people and\or Hamas that people itt condemn? I read this thread a lot and I often get the impression that people think Israel just kills and oppresses and makes people generally miserable for the fun of it like North Korea or something. And no doubt some Israelis do, I'd never suggest there aren't lots of legitimately bigoted Muslim-hating Jews in Israel. But I mean... the whole Hamas genocidal charter thing, does it not matter because they can never possibly achieve it, or because they're just kidding about it, or what? Both sides do lots of hosed up things, but Palestine's share of the condemnation always seems conspicuously absent from these conversations. A Palestinian militant group saying they will commit ethnic cleansing in a document decades ago but not doing so and not being in a position to do so even if they wanted to is bad, but obviously nowhere near as bad as Israel literally committing ethnic cleansing against the Palestinians. Actual war crimes that are happening take precedence over getting outraged about hypothetical war crimes which will never happen. Seems pretty self-explanatory. Also "legitimately bigoted Muslim-hating Jews" aren't the issue. Whether an IDF soldier who is involved in the occupation, oppression, human rights abuses and war crimes of the Israeli state against the Palestinians does it out of personal malice or because they are just following orders the result is the same. If a random Palestinian gets arrested without trial and tortured, it doesn't really matter if the IDF soldiers involved hate him or are just doing a job - it still shouldn't be happening.
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Sep 30, 2016 06:41
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Secular Humanist posted:Just out of curiosity; are there any actions\attitudes of the Palestinian people and\or Hamas that people itt condemn? I read this thread a lot and I often get the impression that people think Israel just kills and oppresses and makes people generally miserable for the fun of it like North Korea or something. And no doubt some Israelis do, I'd never suggest there aren't lots of legitimately bigoted Muslim-hating Jews in Israel. But I mean... the whole Hamas genocidal charter thing, does it not matter because they can never possibly achieve it, or because they're just kidding about it, or what? Both sides do lots of hosed up things, but Palestine's share of the condemnation always seems conspicuously absent from these conversations. The "both sides are wrong" argument is an argument in favor of inaction. Inaction means letting the status quo keep on status quoing. The status quo is Israel committing war crimes and slowly genociding the Palestinians; which are denied any ability to protect themselves in any way. Basically your whole point is "some (probably dead by now) Palestinians said something mean decades ago, therefore Israel needs to exterminate all Palestinians".
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Sep 30, 2016 11:00
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Secular Humanist posted:Just out of curiosity; are there any actions\attitudes of the Palestinian people and\or Hamas that people itt condemn? I read this thread a lot and I often get the impression that people think Israel just kills and oppresses and makes people generally miserable for the fun of it like North Korea or something. And no doubt some Israelis do, I'd never suggest there aren't lots of legitimately bigoted Muslim-hating Jews in Israel. But I mean... the whole Hamas genocidal charter thing, does it not matter because they can never possibly achieve it, or because they're just kidding about it, or what? Both sides do lots of hosed up things, but Palestine's share of the condemnation always seems conspicuously absent from these conversations. Did you know that in the past week, the Israeli occupational forces has shot dead five children in the West Bank? There's basically an open season on kids in the Hebron area now, and I'm not even kidding, everyone knows there will never be any investigations or prosecutions. I'm saying this because I think your analysis is from a different universe.
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Sep 30, 2016 11:39
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Secular Humanist posted:Just out of curiosity; are there any actions\attitudes of the Palestinian people and\or Hamas that people itt condemn? I read this thread a lot and I often get the impression that people think Israel just kills and oppresses and makes people generally miserable for the fun of it like North Korea or something. And no doubt some Israelis do, I'd never suggest there aren't lots of legitimately bigoted Muslim-hating Jews in Israel. But I mean... the whole Hamas genocidal charter thing, does it not matter because they can never possibly achieve it, or because they're just kidding about it, or what? Both sides do lots of hosed up things, but Palestine's share of the condemnation always seems conspicuously absent from these conversations. Assigning collective guilt to a mass of people on ethnic or national grounds for actions comitted by individuals is actually one of the key steps on the genocidal racism road. As for Hamas, they're bad sure, but they have basically no influence compared to the Israeli state and its allies, and much of what influence they do have is a result of Israel systematically undermining any competing authority or institution in Palestine. The civilian death toll of Hamas vs the IDF and settler militias aren't anywhere near comparable. You can quibble over them not being criticized enough I guess, but to equate the two is simply a lie icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 12:14 on Sep 30, 2016 |
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Sep 30, 2016 12:11
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Secular Humanist posted:Just out of curiosity; are there any actions\attitudes of the Palestinian people and\or Hamas that people itt condemn? I read this thread a lot and I often get the impression that people think Israel just kills and oppresses and makes people generally miserable for the fun of it like North Korea or something. And no doubt some Israelis do, I'd never suggest there aren't lots of legitimately bigoted Muslim-hating Jews in Israel. But I mean... the whole Hamas genocidal charter thing, does it not matter because they can never possibly achieve it, or because they're just kidding about it, or what? Both sides do lots of hosed up things, but Palestine's share of the condemnation always seems conspicuously absent from these conversations. This is the rhetorical equivalent of saying "well, what about black on black violence" to anyone who supports the BLM movement, or asking your local imam to publicly condemn every single terrorist act you hear about in the news. You should assume that anyone who opposes institutional discrimination, ethnic cleansing and crimes against humanity does so regardless of who is the victim and who is the perpetrator until they state otherwise. "Palestine's share of the condemnation" is negligible because Israel's crimes are several orders of magnitude greater in both scope and depravity. E: Oh yeah, I'm not accusing you of any of that. People tend to get shirty about that kind of question because it is textbook deflection and you'll see a shitton of that if you ever disagree with someone who's pro-Israel, but it's also important to identify when people are asking genuine questions and not be lovely about it. Zulily Zoetrope fucked around with this message at 13:24 on Sep 30, 2016 |
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Sep 30, 2016 12:55
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Secular Humanist posted:Just out of curiosity; are there any actions\attitudes of the Palestinian people and\or Hamas that people itt condemn? I read this thread a lot and I often get the impression that people think Israel just kills and oppresses and makes people generally miserable for the fun of it like North Korea or something. And no doubt some Israelis do, I'd never suggest there aren't lots of legitimately bigoted Muslim-hating Jews in Israel. But I mean... the whole Hamas genocidal charter thing, does it not matter because they can never possibly achieve it, or because they're just kidding about it, or what? Both sides do lots of hosed up things, but Palestine's share of the condemnation always seems conspicuously absent from these conversations. I won't hesitate to condemn Hamas' use of terror tactics, most notably the use of suicide bombers in public places during the second Intifada. Same with Qassam rockets, though they're so ineffectual that that they're barely worth mentioning. On the other hand, I recognize other tactics, such as abducting IDF soldiers and smuggling tunnels, as valid resistance tactics. The Hamas Charter is irrelevant. It's like criticizing the US for originally having a lovely constitution that allowed slavery, etc. But to my knowledge, Hamas never came up with a means of revising their charter, so they're sort of stuck with it. What is relevant is the numerous peace offers Hamas has made in the past, including recognization of Israel in exchange for a long term truce. In general anyone who brings up the Hamas charter can be assumed to be a shill who is not interested in peace, or intellectual honesty.
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Sep 30, 2016 13:06
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Svartvit posted:Did you know that in the past week, the Israeli occupational forces has shot dead five children in the West Bank? There's basically an open season on kids in the Hebron area now, and I'm not even kidding, everyone knows there will never be any investigations or prosecutions. I'm saying this because I think your analysis is from a different universe. Googling "child killed Hebron" is one way to make you want to start your Friday drinking early. Seems like the main lesson IDF soldiers got out of the Azaria trial is to not even bother non-violently subduing an alleged assailant under any circumstances. 
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Sep 30, 2016 13:19
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Googling "child killed Hebron" is one way to make you want to start your Friday drinking early. Seems like the main lesson IDF soldiers got out of the Azaria trial is to not even bother non-violently subduing an alleged assailant under any circumstances. Nah, there's just plenty of Azariyas throughout the IDF. Don't forget, Azariya wasn't on the scene when the attacker was disabled - he arrived afterward. Considering widespread disdain toward the lives of Palestinians and the blending of military work and police work that the IDF has experienced, it's no surprise there's plenty of soldiers and guards shooting when not necessary (civilian security guards in particular tend to be serious loose cannons). While the IDF top leadership officially disapproves of unnecessary shootings, there's also a definite policy of cover-ups and handling incidents quietly with slaps on the wrist to avoid them becoming public, and many lower commanders have demonstrated their willingness to back such shootings.
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Sep 30, 2016 15:07
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Main Paineframe posted:While the IDF top leadership officially disapproves of unnecessary shootings, there's also a definite policy of cover-ups and handling incidents quietly with slaps on the wrist to avoid them becoming public, and many lower commanders have demonstrated their willingness to back such shootings. ANIME AKBAR posted:The Hamas Charter is irrelevant. It's like criticizing the US for originally having a lovely constitution that allowed slavery, etc. If said charter doesn't matter, then it should be revised. If it cannot be revised, then you can't blame people for assuming Hamas' present and future actions are / will be dictated by said charter. If it cannot be revised because said revision would infuriate the many Hamas members and Palestinian citizens who subscribe to what said charter says, well...
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Sep 30, 2016 16:12
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Xander77 posted:You guys are still carping about "There were no such thing as Palestinians". Can you imagine if that was still in the Likud charter of whatever? Oh, is that a historical quote? I didn't know that. I "carp" about it because Israeli right-wing media, politicians, and organizations (and their allies and supporters) say it pretty much constantly as part of an active, ongoing campaign to delegitimize Palestinian claims.
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Sep 30, 2016 16:19
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In fact, here's one right now! Didn't take me long to find. http://www.jewishpress.com/indepth/opinions/there-are-no-palestinian-lands/2016/09/28/ quote:Now, forty years later, some people on the left have become confused, absorbing the false Arab narrative about “Palestinian lands” – although there never was either a Palestinian people or an Arab Palestinian state at any time in history; they accept that Jewish communities in Judea and Samaria are illegal – even though that is absolutely not true by international law: Jews cannot be occupiers in a land that is historically and legally ours. No other group ever had legal title to the land. Therefore being against Jewish communities in those areas isn’t based on law, but rather a misunderstanding of international law that may or may not be a form of conscious or unconscious anti-Semitism. Are you equating the Hamas Charter to an article posted two days ago?
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Sep 30, 2016 16:25
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Main Paineframe posted:
http://www.memritv.org/clip_transcript/en/3257.htm whoopsie daisy. Xander77 fucked around with this message at 16:51 on Sep 30, 2016 |
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Sep 30, 2016 16:42
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I'm assuming Uzi Dayan is named after the firearm. Also the idea that Jews have a "legal title" to the land because their religion says so always makes me laugh. If I create a religion that says Netanyahu's bank account belongs to me, am I legally entitled to take it?
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Sep 30, 2016 16:45
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Xander77 posted:Great point, you disingenious jackass. I am absolutely defeated, as we all know that the Charter is bsolete, and the principles stated in it are not So because there are people in Tunisia who are racist against Jews, the Zionist ethnic cleansing of Palestine is OK, or at least something that you can't really criticize consistently?
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Sep 30, 2016 16:49
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icantfindaname posted:So because there are people in Tunisia who are racist against Jews, the Zionist ethnic cleansing of Palestine is OK, or at least something that you can't really criticize consistently?
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Sep 30, 2016 16:53
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Xander77 posted:If by "people in Tunisia" you mean "people in Palestine", then... I'd look pretty goddamned stupid saying that. Good thing you can point to me making that claim outside your fevered imagination? Well... Xander77 posted:Great point, you disingenious jackass. I am absolutely defeated, as we all know that the Charter is obsolete, and the principles stated in it are not Let's look at your link. quote:Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Haniya, in Visit to Tunisia: We Shall Not Relinquish Palestine, from the Mediterranean to the Jordan River I guess Israel allowed a crowd of Palestinians to travel to Tunisia to accompany some Hamas dude? Or perhaps it actually was a crowd of Tunisian Tunisians from Tunisia in Tunisia. That one's a toughie.
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Sep 30, 2016 17:03
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Xander77 posted:If by "people in Tunisia" you mean "people in Palestine", then... I'd look pretty goddamned stupid saying that. Good thing you can point to me making that claim outside your fevered imagination? You look pretty goddamn stupid right now.
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Sep 30, 2016 17:06
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Xander77 posted:If by "people in Tunisia" you mean "people in Palestine", then... I'd look pretty goddamned stupid saying that. Good thing you can point to me making that claim outside your fevered imagination? Read the transcript you posted more closely, particularly the parts that say who's saying what. I can understand that you're having difficulty making much sense of it, since all of the context has been removed and the content is cherry-picked and mashed together (as is typical for MEMRI), but take another look at the offending sections.
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Sep 30, 2016 17:07
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Main Paineframe posted:Read the transcript you posted I could have used a crayon to clarify which sections are relevant and "who's saying what", but... ok, relying on this thread to be anything other than willfully dense was kinda stupid of me, I'll admit that.
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Sep 30, 2016 17:10
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Xander77 posted:http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/0/0/0/0/0/95/3247.htm Why don't you put some effort in and explain it to us? I don't see a single instance of a Palestinian calling for the deaths of Jews in that heavily edited and pruned transcript. Put in some effort, rather than just linking to a vague, drawn-out quote from a source notorious for cherrypicking and misrepresenting and then expecting us to divine your specific argument from that.
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Sep 30, 2016 17:23
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If your point is that the leader of Hamas doesn't like Israel very much... well... I'd say he's got his reasons.
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Sep 30, 2016 17:24
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I don't know how someone can't see there's an inescapable logic to the mainstream Israeli position re: Palestine that implies ethnic cleansing at the very least.
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Sep 30, 2016 17:27
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Nevvy Z posted:If your point is that the leader of Hamas doesn't like Israel very much... well... I'd say he's got his reasons. Cat Mattress posted:some Hamas dude? Main Paineframe posted:Why don't you put some effort in and explain it to us? I don't see a single instance of a Palestinian calling for the deaths of Jews in that heavily edited and pruned transcript. Put in some effort, rather than just linking to a vague, drawn-out quote from a source notorious for cherrypicking and misrepresenting and then expecting us to divine your specific argument from that. So. Well, I could try clarifying things, just for you benefit, buuuuuuuuuuut.... It's a discussion that all took place on this very page. If you're too loving dense to follow my clearly stated arguments from: Xander77 posted:If said charter doesn't matter, then it should be revised. If it cannot be revised, then you can't blame people for assuming Hamas' present and future actions are / will be dictated by said charter. If it cannot be revised because said revision would infuriate the many Hamas members and Palestinian citizens who subscribe to what said charter says, well... to: Xander77 posted:[Ismail Haniyeh] is telling people that Hamas sticks by its principles - it is committed to liberating Then how would any clarification I could possibly make help you out? Xander77 fucked around with this message at 17:39 on Sep 30, 2016 |
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Sep 30, 2016 17:37
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I think that the Hamas charter isn't totally irrelevant as it's continuing existence is an indication that although Hamas has become more accommodating to Israel over the years, it still contains enough hard-line elements that it can't get rid of it. That said, a hypothetical future war crime that Hamas is no position to actually carry out is far less relevant than the actual war crimes taking place right now.
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Sep 30, 2016 20:01
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team overhead smash posted:I think that the Hamas charter isn't totally irrelevant as it's continuing existence is an indication that although Hamas has become more accommodating to Israel over the years, it still contains enough hard-line elements that it can't get rid of it. Clearly you can see we need to take the moral high ground and not unfairly attack Israel, as both sides are at fault  *accepts editorial post at major liberal news publication*
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Sep 30, 2016 20:09
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team overhead smash posted:I think that the Hamas charter isn't totally irrelevant as it's continuing existence is an indication that although Hamas has become more accommodating to Israel over the years, it still contains enough hard-line elements that it can't get rid of it. Apparently there are some to whom efforts to understand are just nefarious Jew-ey preparations for a genocide.
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Sep 30, 2016 20:21
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There's also this: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/jan/12/israel Or did they change their minds again and add it back?
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Sep 30, 2016 21:05
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Xander77 posted:To me, knowing where Hamas actually stands is a good thing to... err... know, when it comes to efforts for peace in the area. Which... I wouldn't think would be all that controversial. Hamas is made up of a number of different people with different outlooks who advocate different policies. If you want to know where Hamas stands that's fine, but that's not what you're doing when you focus solely on a 30 year old document to the exclusion of all else. While I think it is relevant that it hasn't been rewritten because it shows they are pandering to hardline elements, at the same time using it as your sole basis of judgement is obviously dumb as poo poo. Hamas has taken positions in the past which clearly violate what they're supposed to do based on the charter - like stating they would accept a peace deal with Israel if it passed a national referendum.
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Sep 30, 2016 21:13
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