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This is interesting. https://twitter.com/stevenleemyers/status/781965077264134146
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Oct 1, 2016 00:28
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Ugh, that's a depressing read 
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Oct 1, 2016 00:55
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Yet another triumphant laurel in Kerry's crown. One day the capital shall shut its roads so we may parade him through the streets. This grants insight into how dysfunctional American policy is in Syria. It is a contradictory mess of objectives that fail to accomplish much at all. Our one undeniable success is rolling back ISIS through the Kurds and Iraqis (more like Iranian militias am i rite) to an irrelevant threat who can be dealt with when the time is right and even then our one reliable ally (Kurds) is pitted against our other essential ally (Turkey). The truth of that comic is biting, and it's non inevitability a tragedy. Edit: quote:"Everybody who’s registered as a refugee anywhere in the world can vote. Are they going to vote for Assad? Assad’s scared of this happening.” Jesus Christ, Kerry.
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Oct 1, 2016 01:33
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Radio Prune posted:I support the foreign actual Islamic theocracy that has both its own military and thousands of its foreign irregulars (who want to establish a trans-national clerical Islamic state in West Asia) fighting a sectarian conflict abroad that they themselves style as a Jihad, because only they can defeat the Islamists. Very interesting, Assad was securing it before. Does Saudi Arabia keep their country stable with violence, and Egypt?. How exactly do you think this situation is going to turn out, tell me without sarcasm how it would turn out your way. So you are reaffirming that we support terrorist supporting dictators in the form of Saudi Arabia and Qatar, legitimate question.
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Oct 1, 2016 02:08
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Brother Friendship posted:Yet another triumphant laurel in Kerry's crown. One day the capital shall shut its roads so we may parade him through the streets. This grants insight into how dysfunctional American policy is in Syria. It is a contradictory mess of objectives that fail to accomplish much at all. Our one undeniable success is rolling back ISIS through the Kurds and Iraqis (more like Iranian militias am i rite) to an irrelevant threat who can be dealt with when the time is right and even then our one reliable ally (Kurds) is pitted against our other essential ally (Turkey). Both Obama and Kerry' ME policy is about public opinion and their legacies, very little more
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Oct 1, 2016 02:18
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SA_Avenger posted:
how the gently caress are the turkish rebel neanthals any better then ISIS. hell they practicaly support each other. i wish erdogan just dropped pretenses already and became sultun so maybe we could cut him from the NATO teat.
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Oct 1, 2016 02:29
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Volkerball posted:
Remember I said logically and critical thinking. You talk about the Bahai and minorities in a typical whatabout, I am fully aware they are mistreated and believe it is awful, but what exactly is the solution, attack the Shia and just hope the Bahai come out on top. This is ULTRA Neoliberal/Neoconservative ideology. How can you assume something without even being able to realize what is feasible. Are we to go to war with everyone on earth for this, what is your ideology on how you think our country should interact with the world. Do you think it has a balanced approach right now? Outside of Israel, do we find moral allies in Saudi Arabia, or are they the devil we partner with because Iran is a rival and its influence has to be contained. If we partnered with them, why not Assad for the same reason? Explain to me this cognitive dissonance - is the mental stress or discomfort experienced by an individual who holds two or more contradictory beliefs, ideas, or values at the same time; performs an action that is contradictory to one or more beliefs, ideas, or values; or is confronted by new information that conflicts with existing beliefs, ideas, or values. Please tell me your views, I might be able to understand your point of view if you tell me how you view our relationship with the Saudi's. Czer fucked around with this message at 02:32 on Oct 1, 2016 |
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Oct 1, 2016 02:30
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I talk with Middle Eastern people, to include Iranians, all the time. Usually, when they speak, I take notes. A lot of my opinions, probably the majority, aren't just inspired by Middle Easterners, they are exact 1:1 copies from articles or discussions I've had with them where I understood their perspective. This whole attitude of yours revolves around the assumption that the views being posted in this thread are naive and sheltered. I gave you an opportunity to explain this, and you still choose not to, because you have no legs to stand on. It's rich that you would throw around a word like "hubris" when that's the situation./cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/666774/iranwire_cartoon_assad.0.jpg)
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Dapper_Swindler posted:how the gently caress are the turkish rebel neanthals any better then ISIS. How could they be better when they're the same guys?
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Oct 1, 2016 02:32
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Czer posted:I'm going to quote this, because it was not a straw man as the probation detailed and i'll provide proof. arnt those the dickhead turkish "rebels" who basically friends with ISIS and just kill and rape kurds. the stupid fuckers who keep throwing away support from the US because papa erdogan and papa bagdadi said so. we should let those cunts die when ISIS envitibly gets greedy and attacks them, or assad attacks them or the kurds send them to hell. just let the illiterate wahhabi scum die. it will make the country(whats left of it) a better place. gently caress Turkey/erdogan and their wannabe Wahabbi theocratic bullshit, gently caress assad and his lovely family who in a just world would be swinging from lamposts, gently caress ISIS and gently caress Papa Putin for making the country 1000 times worse and killing thousands of children. I am sick of nothing but horrible hellish poo poo coming out of syria where every time i check, a new monsters has crawled onto the scene or Obama and kerry are being limpdick foreign policy letting loving monsters do whatever they want. I am just upset
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Oct 1, 2016 02:40
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I just want to take this post to say I support the MEK
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Oct 1, 2016 02:58
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Dapper_Swindler posted:arnt those the dickhead turkish "rebels" who basically friends with ISIS and just kill and rape kurds. the stupid fuckers who keep throwing away support from the US because papa erdogan and papa bagdadi said so. we should let those cunts die when ISIS envitibly gets greedy and attacks them, or assad attacks them or the kurds send them to hell. just let the illiterate wahhabi scum die. it will make the country(whats left of it) a better place. gently caress Turkey/erdogan and their wannabe Wahabbi theocratic bullshit, gently caress assad and his lovely family who in a just world would be swinging from lamposts, gently caress ISIS and gently caress Papa Putin for making the country 1000 times worse and killing thousands of children. I am sick of nothing but horrible hellish poo poo coming out of syria where every time i check, a new monsters has crawled onto the scene or Obama and kerry are being limpdick foreign policy letting loving monsters do whatever they want. I am just upset Why do you not blame this on the Bush Administration, it was directly their fault, even Dick Cheney said what would happen. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BEsZMvrq-I No one remember how we captured Fallujah? https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/nov/10/usa.iraq Czer fucked around with this message at 03:45 on Oct 1, 2016 |
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Oct 1, 2016 03:06
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Punkin Spunkin posted:I just want to take this post to say What I said earlier, I didn't mean it. I want you to live the rest of your life with that face.
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Oct 1, 2016 03:10
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Czer posted:Remember I said logically and critical thinking. You talk about the Bahai and minorities in a typical whatabout, I am fully aware they are mistreated and believe it is awful, but what exactly is the solution, attack the Shia and just hope the Bahai come out on top. This is ULTRA Neoliberal/Neoconservative ideology. How can you assume something without even being able to realize what is feasible. Are we to go to war with everyone on earth for this, what is your ideology on how you think our country should interact with the world. Do you think it has a balanced approach right now? Outside of Israel, do we find moral allies in Saudi Arabia, or are they the devil we partner with because Iran is a rival and its influence has to be contained. If we partnered with them, why not Assad for the same reason? When it comes to how the US should act on the global stage, there's an important dichotomy to note that has existed since the US first appeared on the scene. It's a country founded on the values of freedom and liberty, and its citizens are taught that such ideals are sacrosanct. This has been contrasted with the support for the glory and the power of the US. The idea that the US is and should be the greatest country in the world. There's been a long running schizophrenic battle between standing up for what's morally right, and standing up for what is perceived to benefit the national interest, the latter of which often goes against what is moral. For the most part, it has been the argument that our interests are more important to focus on, usually through very flimsy justifications, that won over the majority. The idea of the white mans burden, the fear mongering towards communism and Islam, Manifest Destiny, etc. These are the types of arguments that have led a country that values liberty into alliances with kings. A country that values human rights and freedom into acts of brutal repression of reasonable dissent. But if you sit back and look at it, of course these justifications are all bullshit, and held together by nothing resembling ideological consistency. That I think is the root of the cognitive dissonance you're referring to, even today. And with that in mind, you are absolutely right. You cannot demonize Iranian conduct from a value standpoint while supporting working with a country like KSA from the imperialist standpoint, while maintaining ideological consistency. So as far as what to do, it's pretty clear to me. The strategies supported by the imperialist focus have not just resulted in horrific human cost, but they have too often failed in their own goal, which is to benefit the US. To use Iran for an example, how much blood, money and effort went into establishing western influence in the country? It all counted for piss, as the clerical establishment undid all of that work almost effortlessly, with the support of the majority of Iranians who, for their whole lives, felt the negative effects of colonial interests. Who went on to watch the US and a large part of the world unjustly fund Saddam in the Iran/Iraq War. As a result, today, we couldn't have any less influence there, as the government and people in Iran at best distrust us. And the same people who would've argued in favor of strategies that created these conditions decades ago are the ones who now think that the results of the Iranian revolution and the Iran/Iraq War have created the worst security situation in the world for the US. So with what credibility do they have to be arguing in favor of supporting KSA as a bulwark to Iranian expansion? What benefit is there to these "realpolitik" strategies that buy short term influence at the expense of long term resentment and the inevitable diminishing of influence? The focus has to consistently be on morality and values rather than on the "practical" strategies from serially wrong warhawks and isolationists. Influence in the 21st century has to been earned, not imposed.
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Oct 1, 2016 03:51
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I seriously don't see what you people see wrong with jihadism.
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Oct 1, 2016 03:53
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rear end struggle posted:I seriously don't see what you people see wrong with jihadism. actually you sse jihad refers to the inner war against oneself and furthermore...
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Oct 1, 2016 03:57
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Czer posted:What I said earlier, I didn't mean it. I want you to live the rest of your life with that face.
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Oct 1, 2016 03:59
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Sometimes I imagine people posting from a burned out building in aleppo posing as westerners to instill a sense that Jihad is great and amazing and totally not a proto holy warm
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Oct 1, 2016 03:59
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Seriously, explain to me how jihadism is any worse than nationalism or any other conflict motivation
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Oct 1, 2016 04:00
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Jihadism has less stylish uniforms
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Oct 1, 2016 04:01
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LeoMarr posted:Sometimes I imagine people posting from a burned out building in aleppo posing as westerners to instill a sense that Jihad is great and amazing and totally not a proto holy warm I imagine the same thing when I see people defend Putin and his alawi slaves
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Oct 1, 2016 04:01
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rear end struggle posted:I imagine the same thing when I see people defend Putin and his alawi slaves Not like they'd have much of a chance in the Sunni Arab State.
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Oct 1, 2016 04:06
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Panzeh posted:Not like they'd have much of a chance in the Sunni Arab State. They'd have a better chance than you would in Assad's state.
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Oct 1, 2016 04:08
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Volkerball posted:They'd have a better chance than you would in Assad's state. Ain't that hard to post RT hot takes.
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Oct 1, 2016 04:10
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Panzeh posted:Ain't that hard to post RT hot takes. Sure but as soon as you start talking about YPG this and proletarian that, next time we see your rear end will be laying on a dirt floor with a number drawn on your head.
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Oct 1, 2016 04:14
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Volkerball posted:When it comes to how the US should act on the global stage, there's an important dichotomy to note that has existed since the US first appeared on the scene. It's a country founded on the values of freedom and liberty, and its citizens are taught that such ideals are sacrosanct. This has been contrasted with the support for the glory and the power of the US. The idea that the US is and should be the greatest country in the world. There's been a long running schizophrenic battle between standing up for what's morally right, and standing up for what is perceived to benefit the national interest, the latter of which often goes against what is moral. For the most part, it has been the argument that our interests are more important to focus on, usually through very flimsy justifications, that won over the majority. The idea of the white mans burden, the fear mongering towards communism and Islam, Manifest Destiny, etc. These are the types of arguments that have led a country that values liberty into alliances with kings. A country that values human rights and freedom into acts of brutal repression of reasonable dissent. But if you sit back and look at it, of course these justifications are all bullshit, and held together by nothing resembling ideological consistency. That I think is the root of the cognitive dissonance you're referring to, even today. And with that in mind, you are absolutely right. You cannot demonize Iranian conduct from a value standpoint while supporting working with a country like KSA from the imperialist standpoint, while maintaining ideological consistency. I agree with you on everything. I also argue from the weight of the situation, and like Kerry said. “The problem is that, you know, you get, quote, enforcers in there and then everybody ups the ante, right? Russia puts in more, Iran puts in more; Hezbollah is there more and Nusra is more; and Saudi Arabia and Turkey put all their surrogate money in, and you all are destroyed.” At another point, Mr. Kerry spelled out in stark terms distinctions the United States was making between combatants, which have upset the Syrian opposition: The United States wants the rebels to help it fight the Islamic State and Al Qaeda because, as he put it, “both have basically declared war on us.” But Washington will not join the same rebels in fighting Hezbollah, the Lebanese Shiite militia allied with Mr. Assad, even though the United States lists Hezbollah as a terrorist group like the others. “Hezbollah,” Mr. Kerry explained, “is not plotting against us.” Czer fucked around with this message at 04:20 on Oct 1, 2016 |
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Oct 1, 2016 04:15
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Volkerball posted:Sure but as soon as you start talking about YPG this and proletarian that, next time we see your rear end will be laying on a dirt floor with a number drawn on your head. The alternative would've been showing up for blasphemy charges in an Islamic court and getting the same thing happening.
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Oct 1, 2016 04:19
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Czer posted:Remember I said logically and critical thinking. You talk about the Bahai and minorities in a typical whatabout, I am fully aware they are mistreated and believe it is awful, but what exactly is the solution, attack the Shia and just hope the Bahai come out on top. This is ULTRA Neoliberal/Neoconservative ideology. How can you assume something without even being able to realize what is feasible. Are we to go to war with everyone on earth for this, what is your ideology on how you think our country should interact with the world. Do you think it has a balanced approach right now? Outside of Israel, do we find moral allies in Saudi Arabia, or are they the devil we partner with because Iran is a rival and its influence has to be contained. If we partnered with them, why not Assad for the same reason? Wow, how can't people get this... People are dying, i mean really dying, I mean REAlly really REALLY hosed up mass death/destruction/destabiliztion, we should do something. Somethings are not like the others. If you want a perspective you can look up the Yugoslav wars. 54.4 crowns fucked around with this message at 05:32 on Oct 1, 2016 |
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Oct 1, 2016 05:27
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Punkin Spunkin posted:I just want to take this post to say hmm As an appropriately self-effacing westerner, I think I gotta accept this honest and well informed Arabio-Shiastani's take on this situation. The MEK must be good. I'm sure their ethnicity gives them deep insight into the tactical, organizational, and moral disposition of the armed forces his parents carefully maneuvered to keep them as far away these conflicts and organizations from as physically possible. Asking them to explain or justify a position would just be condenscending! Tell me Punkin Spunkin, where can I make a donation to these brave freedom fighters? Squalid fucked around with this message at 06:05 on Oct 1, 2016 |
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Oct 1, 2016 05:52
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54.4 crowns posted:Wow, how can't people get this... So you're trying to bring up a runt remnant of the Ottoman empire as something comparative in complication to the middle east. Iran is as big as Western Europe. http://thetruesize.com/ look how big the Middle East really is. Czer fucked around with this message at 06:09 on Oct 1, 2016 |
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Oct 1, 2016 06:05
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Czer posted:So you're trying to bring up a runt remnant of the Ottoman empire as something comparative in complication to the middle east. Iran is as big as Western Europe. wouldn't population be a better arbitrary metric? maybe population density? siberia and the united states fill the same relative geographic footprint, i'm not sure that they have the same level of political complexity
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Oct 1, 2016 06:16
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On the subject of something besides hubris, I want to talk about banking. In Syria, Yemen, Libya, and Iraq the bank sector has been put in the bizarre position of cutting checks to civil servants operating in enemy territory. Central Banking Independence has been taken to heretofor unseen heights in Yemen, with the governor of the Central Bank of Yemen, Mohammed bin Humam, taking a nonpartisan position and walking a tightrope between the Houthis and the Hadi administration. Absurdly, the Bank was paying salaries to soldiers fighting on both sides of the civil war. Neither side has been very eager to mess with Yemen's already tenuous financial situation, however in the last month Hadi has finally moved to forcibly move the bank headquarters from Sa'ada to Aden. http://www.thenational.ae/world/middle-east/yemens-central-bank-becomes-latest-front-line-in-civil-war The Libyan Central bank is in a similarily complicated spot. It's acquiescence to the GNA was part of their decisive entrance into Tripoli for example. Since the overthrow of Gaddafi however it has been charged with cutting checks to many of the nation's disparate militias, even when they have been in open conflict with one another. Now although Hiftar controls most of the oil export facilities, payment for Libyan oil can legally still only go through the Central bank and National Oil corporation. Since the split of Libya into eastern and western factions there have been continuous legal disputes over who exactly has authority over these institutions. Although with his men's paychecks coming from Tripoli he is not without motivation to let the oil flow, and as long as he retains control he has leverage. http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2016/09/libya-oil-wealth-following-money-hifter.html In all the conflicts of the Middle East the banks and their payments across battlelines represent not just an economic lifeline, but for the central authorities it is also a claim to legitimacy. By paying the people's pensions and fulfilling the basic obligations of government they show their authority and demonstrate their commitment to the obligations of the old state, no matter how shattered. When the conflict in Yemen first broke out bin Humam was some how able to shuttle himself between Saudi Arabia and Sa'daa and more or less remain completely neutral, it was a really impressive trick that probably helped the average Yemeni a great deal. It feels kinda cyberpunky, or mabye like a neoliberal economist's wet dream of banking independnce, or perhaps their punishment on ironic level of hell.
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Oct 1, 2016 06:44
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dick head dinosaur posted:wouldn't population be a better arbitrary metric? maybe population density? siberia and the united states fill the same relative geographic footprint, i'm not sure that they have the same level of political complexity Arbitrary? Do you know how many languages, ethnic groups, religious schisms cover the Middle East, because it is the very definition of the region to be mired in endless conflict based on the list I mentioned before. 
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Oct 1, 2016 08:45
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https://life.ru/t/%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B0/909965/iesli_by_rossiia_nie_vviela_voiska_v_siriiuquote:Если бы Россия не ввела войска в Сирию 
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Oct 1, 2016 11:16
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Volkerball posted:This is interesting. Yeah, Kerry has been playing diplomacy with an empty hand for pretty much the whole conflict. Post-Iraq there just isn't any political will in this country to get involved in another Middle Eastern conflict. Also, once Russia backed their horse, any military escalation now risks a global nuclear war. Outside of a vague desire to show the home front evidence that ISIS is losing, the US has nothing to win but plenty to lose from this conflict. Without a legitimate threat of military force backing our diplomacy, it's all just empty words. Russia read this correctly and has realized they can act with impunity in the region.
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Oct 1, 2016 16:03
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Subvisual Haze posted:Yeah, Kerry has been playing diplomacy with an empty hand for pretty much the whole conflict. Post-Iraq there just isn't any political will in this country to get involved in another Middle Eastern conflict. Also, once Russia backed their horse, any military escalation now risks a global nuclear war. Outside of a vague desire to show the home front evidence that ISIS is losing, the US has nothing to win but plenty to lose from this conflict. Without a legitimate threat of military force backing our diplomacy, it's all just empty words. Russia read this correctly and has realized they can act with impunity in the region.
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Oct 1, 2016 16:12
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Grouchio posted:I feel like Russia acting with impunity in the region is immensely better than we (the US) doing the same, because then the blood is on Putin's hands and not ours for once. Feel free to correct me if necessary. Putin is spending a lot of blood and treasure to keep what he had before the war began. The US is spending a little treasure but very little (American) blood to blow the gently caress out of some real assholes. I have no idea if this is worth it or not.
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Oct 1, 2016 16:22
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We think we can all agree the MEK are dumb
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Oct 1, 2016 16:36
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Methyl ethyl ketone is actually pretty important so no
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Oct 1, 2016 16:40
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A new parliamentary report in the UK is pretty critical of the justification for intervention in Libya: http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201617/cmselect/cmfaff/119/11905.htm#_idTextAnchor015 Despite his rhetoric, the proposition that Muammar Gaddafi would have ordered the massacre of civilians in Benghazi was not supported by the available evidence. The Gaddafi regime had retaken towns from the rebels without attacking civilians in early February 2011.72 During fighting in Misrata, the hospital recorded 257 people killed and 949 people wounded in February and March 2011. Those casualties included 22 women and eight children.73 Libyan doctors told United Nations investigators that Tripoli’s morgues contained more than 200 corpses following fighting in late February 2011, of whom two were female.74 The disparity between male and female casualties suggested that Gaddafi regime forces targeted male combatants in a civil war and did not indiscriminately attack civilians. More widely, Muammar Gaddafi’s 40-year record of appalling human rights abuses did not include large-scale attacks on Libyan civilians.75 ... We have seen no evidence that the UK Government carried out a proper analysis of the nature of the rebellion in Libya. It may be that the UK Government was unable to analyse the nature of the rebellion in Libya due to incomplete intelligence and insufficient institutional insight and that it was caught up in events as they developed. It could not verify the actual threat to civilians posed by the Gaddafi regime; it selectively took elements of Muammar Gaddafi’s rhetoric at face value; and it failed to identify the militant Islamist extremist element in the rebellion. UK strategy was founded on erroneous assumptions and an incomplete understanding of the evidence.
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Oct 1, 2016 18:25
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New map of the Euphrates Shield operation: Things have definitely slowed to a crawl (if not a halt) on this front. The end goal is supposed to be Al Bab, but the FSA/rebel forces here can't even get to Al Bab, much less mount any kind of attack on it. New map of Aleppo:  More SAA/NDF/etc advances. I'm still at a loss to see a plausible path for the siege to get reversed. The north was cut off, after that happened the rebels relieved the siege by connecting to the south, but now that's been reversed too. That doesn't really leave any other options; they certainly aren't going to stomp right through the middle of urban Aleppo. Someone collected a bunch of pictures of a second airfield the US may be working on (the "south of Kobani" one): https://www.reddit.com/r/syriancivilwar/comments/55dmvt/work_on_2nd_us_airfield_in_syria_is_progressing/
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Oct 1, 2016 19:55
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