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Hooray I'm a B460 or B480 or something else instead of an "IT"! I think the could have just kept the rates as a platitude to what A school you started with and kept the NOS in your file. I'm not going to have any idea what Petty Officer Third Class Timmy does now at a quick glance.
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Sep 30, 2016 07:45
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Insisting on being called H100 3 Buildings for maximum retard
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Sep 30, 2016 15:12
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Laranzu posted:Question based upon my general hatred of higher learning and credentialing institutions. No? That's a really odd position to take despite your hatred for higher learning (which is... wow). It's kind of like saying that science fails to prove the hypothesis in many experiments and therefore physics is guesswork. Boon fucked around with this message at 16:11 on Sep 30, 2016 |
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Sep 30, 2016 16:08
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Boon posted:No? I'm all for learning, and learning stuff. I just dislike the institutions, methods utilized and honestly most of the staff. I guess the field does lack the ability to do reproducabe experiments to prove its theories. While at the same time dealing with humans instead of the physical world. Laranzu fucked around with this message at 18:11 on Sep 30, 2016 |
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Sep 30, 2016 18:02
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There are a lot of people who thought that you were supposed to call people by their rate over the 1MC.
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Oct 1, 2016 04:04
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This was kept significantly more close-hold than people realize. I have a couple buddies who are flag aides at the Pentagon on 2 and 3* staffs who hadn't even heard whispers of this. The development of the NOS codes was something that was already in the works and being socialized several months ago, but dropping the enlisted ratings all together blindsided everyone completely. This doesn't do much for morale. CNO/MCPON/SECNAV's Facebook pages are pretty salty right now. Frankly, I'd be curious to see if this translates to legitimate retention issues. People vote with their feet, and during this already-tumultuous (to put it mildly) election season there are a lot of extremely frustrated folks out there right now, this might just be the last straw for quite a few. Talk about putting the cart before the horse. There's so little amplifying detail for these changes (as evidenced by the CNO's Q&A earlier today) it's loving laughable. Pretty sure this is Ray Mabus rolling a grenade into the room as he makes his exit, knowing that he's only got about another 4 months on the job (thank gently caress).
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Oct 1, 2016 04:59
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uh I think it will help retention in the long run
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Oct 1, 2016 05:05
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Yeah gosh darn that SECNAV!! It's a good change, and it will help people when they leave the Navy. That makes me happy. I'll still keep Navy Counselor in my e-mail sig or something.
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Oct 1, 2016 05:17
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buttplug posted:Frankly, I'd be curious to see if this translates to legitimate retention issues. People vote with their feet, and during this already-tumultuous (to put it mildly) election season there are a lot of extremely frustrated folks out there right now, this might just be the last straw for quite a few. 
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Oct 1, 2016 05:31
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Nobody is pleased about losing our spiffy rating. Our instructors got informed to start the stupid Petty Officer blah blah blah already and the watch bill is already solid PO.
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Oct 1, 2016 07:05
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I'm still not understanding how its going to magically help people translate their jobs to the private sector. Like how does changing a skill set title from "Electronics Technician" to a semi random string of alphanumeric characters suddenly make employers better understand what someone did in the Navy?
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Oct 1, 2016 11:33
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ManMythLegend posted:I'm still not understanding how its going to magically help people translate their jobs to the private sector. Like how does changing a skill set title from "Electronics Technician" to a semi random string of alphanumeric characters suddenly make employers better understand what someone did in the Navy? Because you don't put the code on your resumé, you expand it out into a description of the qualification. To use the mineman example (mostly because I didn't even know that rating still existed), no hiring manager at a HVAC company needs a mineman, but someone who was an 'ordnance specialist' (or whatever the primary NEC ends up being) who was qualified to work on hydraulic systems and electronics and can weld or whatever might have a shot. Anyone who can fog a mirror would have explained their actual experience and qualifications anyway since a rating is just as cryptic to an employer as a code, but this certainly doesn't hurt.
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Oct 1, 2016 11:54
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hogmartin posted:Because you don't put the code on your resumé, you expand it out into a description of the qualification. To use the mineman example (mostly because I didn't even know that rating still existed), no hiring manager at a HVAC company needs a mineman, but someone who was an 'ordnance specialist' (or whatever the primary NEC ends up being) who was qualified to work on hydraulic systems and electronics and can weld or whatever might have a shot. That's the way it was before . You filled out a resume and job application with your various skills and work experience in plain language. Now people will be doing exactly the same thing, only with the entire personnel system exploded in a day with no notice and no backup plan in place. Removing ratings literally changed nothing when it comes to getting a job on the outside. Saying that it helps sailors transition to the civilian world is a smokescreen.
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Oct 1, 2016 12:04
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I think I'll ignore this change because it will probably be reversed faster than the NWUs were jettisoned.
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Oct 1, 2016 12:18
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ManMythLegend posted:That's the way it was before . You filled out a resume and job application with your various skills and work experience in plain language. Now people will be doing exactly the same thing, only with the entire personnel system exploded in a day with no notice and no backup plan in place. I literally am getting out in a few weeks. I have a job offer confirmed. I literally did this. They scream this at you at taps. They say assume civilians know nothing about the military and you translate what you did into civilian terms. MML you continue to be amazing and keep it real. Literally this new change was not needed. If they wanted to really have balls they would unify all the services into a common code, like all SF would be SpS and a code for seals, all electricians would be EO and a code for whatever , and that would be a unified joint thing so alll mil would know what you did. This right now is well the sort of top down bullshit no planning change that is a non ideal navy thing. Uniforms need to be changed now. I am sorry but this is the sort of not being a good steward with tax payer money poo poo that disgusts me. Sorry for being a tool but this makes me angry just because of how haphazard it was. No planning, just "gently caress it do it live", and I have a buddy who by all means would benefit (first class fire controllman, went to Iraq because his NEC is the one that operates the land based aegis system, saved tons of lives on his 4 Iraq tours but he can't make chief because FC Chiefs are all sea based ICs, even though he has everything including a Purple Heart from his Iraq tours.).
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Oct 1, 2016 15:03
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I can't even tell what you people are arguing in favor of anymore. Is it because you spent so much time learning all the old codes? That you have to call each other by ranks like the rest of the world? Are training pipelines actually going to change?
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Oct 1, 2016 17:04
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Ryand-Smith posted:I have a buddy who by all means would benefit (first class fire controllman, went to Iraq because his NEC is the one that operates the land based aegis system What? Aegis ashore is just an aegis cruiser deckhouse plopped on land, they don't require a special NEC to operate compared to a deckhouse on a ship, the only one we have operational is in Romania, and it just came online a hot minute ago. Additionally, Aegis FC's were not allowed to be pulled IA, when we were supporting. If he went to Iraq he was probably a conventional CIWS tech.
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Oct 1, 2016 18:45
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ManMythLegend posted:That's the way it was before . You filled out a resume and job application with your various skills and work experience in plain language. Now people will be doing exactly the same thing, only with the entire personnel system exploded in a day with no notice and no backup plan in place. Said this before. Doubling up on the "helps sailors in civilian life" is bullshit
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Oct 1, 2016 18:58
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DustyNuts posted:Yeah gosh darn that SECNAV!! The Navy doesn't exist to act as a job services agency. We cannot fundamentally shape our manning around setting everyone up to transition to the civilian sector. And frankly, getting rid of ratings and replacing them with a bunch of numerical codes with do jack-poo poo to help PO2 Timmy sell himself any better on the outside...
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Oct 1, 2016 20:48
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At this point, the mos/now/afcs whatever it's called should be unified across the DoD so McDonalds knows exactly what they're hiring. While we're at it, the marine corps should be disbanded.
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Oct 1, 2016 21:04
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I think it gives people a more versatile set of skills. Are people monitoring radar on shore duty? What the gently caress is he going to do when he gets out? A lot of people get locked into a career path because of a poo poo rating or one that has a very niche job, maybe one that only applies to a ship. I feel like this would let people carry different ratings, per-se. A lot of people do cross jobs as is. I think this will increase retention ultimately. I mean of course it has a bigger effect on certain communities, but that's the minority, I'm assuming they will still have to go through all the same qualifications/training/schooling anyways. What the gently caress does an AO do on shore duty? I mean unless I'm misinterpreting it. I don't think the Navy needs a ton of very specific jobs that have very limited application. I think this will get rid of that Thanks and God bless
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Oct 1, 2016 22:27
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This is not going to be the straw that broke the camel's back and forces anybody to leave. 
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Oct 1, 2016 22:51
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Don't get me wrong people still trying to leave the Navy but I feel most folks currently in have planned to stay in
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Oct 1, 2016 23:21
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PneumonicBook posted:What? He operated C-RAM (had to look that up), which is apparently a strange thing. It wasn't aegis ashore.
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Oct 1, 2016 23:36
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I couldn't give a gently caress less about these changes the main thing I want to know is will switching jobs be less of a loving hassle now Answer likely gonna be lol no is my guess
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Oct 2, 2016 00:02
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Godholio posted:I can't even tell what you people are arguing in favor of anymore. The entire way the Navy mans, trains, equips, and promotes its enlisted force was just dismantled in a single message with no clear replacement plan in place. Again, on its face, changing an antiquated system is not bad, and believe me the Navy needed a lot of it, but I have absolutely no faith the Navy has thought this through in the slightest and the absolutely horrendous roll out does nothing to dissuade me of that notion. To show how badly this is hosed, I (and the rest of the entire Navy for that matter) have evals due on every PO1 in two weeks. These evals will make or break them on the next CPO board and I have no idea how to fill them out at this point, or even what the CPO board I'm writing them for is going to look like. I don't know what NOS codes my sailors have because the Navy has not released how to determine which ones you have yet. They literally took away all rates without telling people how they will be labeled, trained, and promoted now. But that's all cool because now we look more like the Army and Air Force which is good and necessary for some reason. ManMythLegend fucked around with this message at 01:22 on Oct 2, 2016 |
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Oct 2, 2016 00:14
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Godholio posted:This is not going to be the straw that broke the camel's back and forces anybody to leave. Sure it might. I mean it won't be a mass exodus by any means, but you will get a swath of people who have zero desire to try and navigate the new system, who were comfortable with their old rating, and who are being forced to switch to 1) a new NOS or 2) pick up multiple NOSes in order to stay competitive, be mediocre at both, and get out in frustration. This also fundamentally throws a wrench in how people advance and how we man/train the fleet via BBD... The fact that there are big question marks looming over those last two *will* come back to bite us in the rear end in the very near future. People who were already on the fence have now been convinced this is the time to jump ship. There are second and third-order effects of this that senior-most leadership hasn't thought of yet because they...haven't loving thought about it. Listen to the CNO/SECNAV/MCPON Q&A. It's ambiguous AF and there are a ton of fundamental questions that are unanswered. This whole thing isn't even a polished turd, it's just the turd. Instead, they're telling people that the polishing comes later. There is absolutely, unequivocally zero reason to make this announcement without having hashed out some of the key details that they left completely untouched, except to solidify some sort of half-assed legacy for SECNAV because he's getting the boot in January. CNO should have fought it harder. New MCPON well, he's just along for the ride. hogmartin posted:Because you don't put the code on your resumé, you expand it out into a description of the qualification. To use the mineman example (mostly because I didn't even know that rating still existed), no hiring manager at a HVAC company needs a mineman, but someone who was an 'ordnance specialist' (or whatever the primary NEC ends up being) who was qualified to work on hydraulic systems and electronics and can weld or whatever might have a shot. You know there are classes that teach you how to write a resume and agencies that will literally sit down with mil-folk and convert whatever the gently caress MM2 Tommy did into civilian-ese for a nominal fee. You don't need to re-structure the entire Navy to set people up "for success on the outside". They set themselves up for success on the outside by preparing while they're in. The Navy does not exist to prepare people to transition to the private sector, it exists to fight wars. I know that's a pretty fuckin' obvious statement but I keep hearing people talk about how these changes will "set people up for getting out". It's good to help people ease folks' transition to the civilian world, but that is not our job. buttplug fucked around with this message at 01:02 on Oct 2, 2016 |
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Oct 2, 2016 00:52
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Lmao if youre still in, i wonder what codes id have if i were still in (nah i dont). This also kills my desire to come back via the reserves too, i think ill just get a job as a DoD contractor after this Hewlett Packard thing runs out and get fat
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Oct 2, 2016 01:09
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no bones about it posted:Lmao if youre still in, i wonder what codes id have if i were still in (nah i dont). This also kills my desire to come back via the reserves too, i think ill just get a job as a DoD contractor after this Hewlett Packard thing runs out and get fat But how did you get a job in the civilian sector without a NOS to translate your skills? 
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Oct 2, 2016 01:29
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What's the difference between A210 and J130? I've been out for two and a half years but I need to know which one I was so I can get a sick NOS tattoo.
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Oct 2, 2016 03:02
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ETs are B420.  I guess I got out in time to get to keep my rate.
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Oct 2, 2016 03:05
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ManMythLegend posted:But how did you get a job in the civilian sector without a NOS to translate your skills?  I just threw my resume that i autobuilt on some resume website on monster and within a week i got like 4 interviews for tech jobs. poo poo was cake. Im currently talking with another company that works with army poo poo or something as tech support, and theyll pay me an extra 12k above what HP pays me, so thats a good thing. orange juche fucked around with this message at 04:22 on Oct 2, 2016 |
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Oct 2, 2016 04:18
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MancXVI posted:What's the difference between A210 and J130? I've been out for two and a half years but I need to know which one I was so I can get a sick NOS tattoo. Yeah I better rework my bolts into whatever set of numbers IT+sysadmin is now. Ooooh I'll just have the numbers added inside of them!
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Oct 2, 2016 06:04
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buttplug posted:The Navy does not exist to prepare people to transition to the private sector, it exists to fight wars. I know that's a pretty fuckin' obvious statement but I keep hearing people talk about how these changes will "set people up for getting out". Somewhere over the last 20 years, the ability to defend industry stopped being tied to the ability to defend land and got tied to the ability to defend networks, which it turns out is nobody's job. It's the wild west and Mars Needs Cowboys. These changes will absolutely help the rates tied to cyber. They will probably help nobody else (maybe HMs?), but, if the military can successfully transition to civilian style training for IT/ET types and add that training to its FC/CT/IC types before they get it, it will contribute to the security of the United States. If the military can create a surplus of skilled manufacturing labor / technicians (it can't, especially when you consider that Hyundai, Daewoo, Kawasaki and Samsung have more shipbuilders than work right now), that would also contribute to the security of the United States. This change isn't about super awesome resumes for people in the Navy. It's future proofing against the next iteration of dissolving Radiomen, and then necessary reconfiguration thats going to follow 15 years later. It's sinking the morale costs now while retention is less important than normal so nobody has to drop the next bomb on the guys. This reorganization will reduce the 'costs' of future very necessary reorganizations. I think people are right to distrust the organization, I think the comms on these change feel disrespectful, but I also think that Sailors would find a way to complain about Free Blow Job Wednesdays, and it's probably pretty easy for flag level Os and DOD Civs to come to the conclusion that 'gently caress it, any change is going to just piss everyone off anyway--they literally thought it was the death of the Chief's mess when we said they weren't allowed to rape each other based on arbitrary latitudes anymore'. Also, just be honest about why you don't want to go reserves. As far as examples of decisions made by an approaching dysfunctional organization that has assassinated it's leadership and been consumed by its own horrific beauracracy, this navadmin rates equal to 'what should I have for lunch?'. You don't want to go reserves because the pay and benefits don't make up for the costs of the job and that the Navy has no more heroes. The end. Most people that talk like you will hammer their plows to swords if the call comes and God bless you for it. If you need me I'll be in the drunk thread.
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Oct 2, 2016 06:23
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piL posted:Somewhere over the last 20 years, the ability to defend industry stopped being tied to the ability to defend land and got tied to the ability to defend networks, which it turns out is nobody's job. Except for all the people who have the job to maintain and defend networks. They might not be utilized correctly but they are there. Its a bit of a slap fight over who gets admin rights to do poo poo though. piL posted:These changes will absolutely help the rates tied to cyber. They will probably help nobody else (maybe HMs?), but, if the military can successfully transition to civilian style training for IT/ET types and add that training to its FC/CT/IC types before they get it, it will contribute to the security of the United States. Utilize the "Skill Community" concept, and apply it to the NECs that already exist. ITs and CTNs can already get civilian certificate granting classes. CTNs get chances every freaking week to get credentials. Then they administer and work with enterprise level (awful/terrible) networks for experience. Allow FCs/ICs to get the schools that may relate to their job specialties. Those NECs have always translated to lines on a resume. Removing the entire framework and adding in a NOS isn't changing anything. They blew up everything without a plan for no gain. The other rates are kind of poo poo out of luck. CTTs are pretty stuck in electronic warfare and the RF spectrum. Having them take network classes adds nothing to their ability to do ASMD. They don't need to understand GSM/CDMA networks to do their job. Some jobs are necessary to ensure things get accomplished, and don't exactly translate well to the outside. Just like an Infantryman will never cross train into computer network defense. Good thing they still get the GI bill and TA. piL posted:If the military can create a surplus of skilled manufacturing labor / technicians (it can't, especially when you consider that Hyundai, Daewoo, Kawasaki and Samsung have more shipbuilders than work right now), that would also contribute to the security of the United States. Thats the point of the GI bill and the experience gathered from working the positions. Its not a primary goal of the fighting force. Especially if the jobs aren't there on the outside. piL posted:This change isn't about super awesome resumes for people in the Navy. It's future proofing against the next iteration of dissolving Radiomen, and then necessary reconfiguration thats going to follow 15 years later. It's sinking the morale costs now while retention is less important than normal so nobody has to drop the next bomb on the guys. This reorganization will reduce the 'costs' of future very necessary reorganizations. If they dissolve some skill community, or make retarded training decisions it still won't make a difference the change occurred. There was no need to explode everything. The framework for crosstraining already existed in the idea of training granting an NEC. Expand the system to allow multiple rates to attain the same NECs. Revamp the training pipeline to add more NECs for critical and necessary skills that can fit across boundaries. Again; The changes add nothing and cost too much. There is not any thought put into how to implement them. You can't take out an entire framework without having something to replace it. Change the currently existing framework until there is a fully thought out idea to replace it. As of right now I'm a B52x First Class with nothing else affecting me. How to the current NECs wrap into the system? No one knows. Laranzu fucked around with this message at 07:10 on Oct 2, 2016 |
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Oct 2, 2016 06:58
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Nostalgia4Dicks posted:uh I think it will help retention in the long run Idk, retention might go down some if the BAH poo poo that they've announced ends up going through. I don't see how a name change would help retain people at all N4D, they'll still be doing the work and likely have the commands that make them decide whether or not they'll be in based on what's going on. Only way I see it retaining people is if they did an overhaul in getting people certifications from their C school that come from certifying bodies that aren't lovely, and even then the retention might have the opposite effect. How would you end up convincing a service member with a family to feed to stay in when you're cutting away from retirement, BAH, and can't keep up with the amount of pay someone would receive working at (insert company) compared to them being in the mil? Even if you expand certifications, what's to stop people from enlisting simply to get the credentials they need to work in their desired fields and then get out while saving the GI Bill to fill in anything they're missing to get further? There's no way the military would be able to maintain pay with some of the things those fields offer. Hell, the new program to get psychiatric technicians into officer positions is going to backfire after a while when the psychiatrists and clinical psychologists realize they could make way more money on the outside. The only people that would stay in the military are the ones that have a genuine love for it or they are too scared of the private sector to take the leap. They'd need the system to actually mean something in classifying individuals into various fields, not just change names in the hopes that a special snowflake didn't feel left out when it's literally only a job title. Pandasmores fucked around with this message at 07:48 on Oct 2, 2016 |
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Oct 2, 2016 07:39
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piL posted:Somewhere over the last 20 years, the ability to defend industry stopped being tied to the ability to defend land and got tied to the ability to defend networks, which it turns out is nobody's job. Computer Network Defense may be small, but we do exist.
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Oct 2, 2016 14:17
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Null Integer posted:Computer Network Defense may be small, but we do exist. I meant for America as a whole, not just the DoD's networks. If Canuck tanks roll over the border OPLAN MAPLE SYRUP gets activated, troops mobilized, missiles fly, politicians yell externally instead of internally, and things happen to push back the Red and White menace and preserve our very similar but much less polite way of life. And this is a well structured concept that doesn't much depend on what American citizen's or state's land is attacked because humans have been protecting territory for thousands of years and 'kill the other guy to make them stop' is relatively universally recognized as the solution. Converse that when an American company's data hosted on a transnational corporation's server's in Singapore are attacked by who-knows-who-from-who-knows-where, I'm sure that the American company calls the police or the NSA or whoever, but the actual acts and decisions of defending their networks are going to be their employees or the security firms they hired. It's comparatively mercenary.
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Oct 2, 2016 16:32
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piL posted:If Canuck tanks roll over the border OPLAN MAPLE SYRUP gets activated, troops mobilized, missiles fly, politicians yell externally instead of internally, and things happen to push back the Red and White menace and preserve our very similar but much less polite way of life. JESUS loving CHRIST OPSEC, SHIPMATE
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Oct 2, 2016 16:44
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Laranzu posted:Removing the entire framework and adding in a NOS isn't changing anything. They blew up everything without a plan for no gain. quote:Thats the point of the GI bill and the experience gathered from working the positions. Its not a primary goal of the fighting force. Especially if the jobs aren't there on the outside. quote:If they dissolve some skill community, or make retarded training decisions it still won't make a difference the change occurred. There was no need to explode everything. The framework for crosstraining already existed in the idea of training granting an NEC. Expand the system to allow multiple rates to attain the same NECs. Revamp the training pipeline to add more NECs for critical and necessary skills that can fit across boundaries. quote:Again; The changes add nothing and cost too much. There is not any thought put into how to implement them. You can't take out an entire framework without having something to replace it. Change the currently existing framework until there is a fully thought out idea to replace it.
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Oct 2, 2016 16:57
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