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docbeard posted:Fitz and his gang were part of a subplot in Ghost Story, I believe. Not sure what the basis for thinking he's West and MacFinn's kid is, though (and if another loup-garou were running around Chicago, I'd think someone would have noticed by now). Ohhh I confused ghost story with grave peril for some stupid reason. My bad!
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Sep 30, 2016 21:10
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Cythereal posted:It's the first time I've ever gone back and read the series from the start. It's interesting to see how things evolved and potential plot threads like Dresden speculating a MIB/TFV equivalent is around, the as-yet unanswered question of where the FBI agents got the Hexenwulf belts from, and the suggestion that Saint Patrick created the loup-garou. Any of those could be a great hook for a future book. y only reread so far was a while after ghost story came out, and I went backwards.It was interesting seeing how every book he was just a little bit weaker.
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Oct 2, 2016 22:20
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Finished Grave Peril. It's my pick for weakest book so far while re-reading, and I've concluded I actively dislike Susan as a character. Is it just me, or is it a growing standard in comics/pulp/tv to make female characters journalists when they're intended to be spunky without actually needing them to demonstrate any particular knowledge, skill, or competence? It's an important book to know about for plot events, but as a read I'd put Grave Peril below the previous two.
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Oct 2, 2016 22:53
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Cythereal posted:Finished Grave Peril. It's my pick for weakest book so far while re-reading, and I've concluded I actively dislike Susan as a character. Is it just me, or is it a growing standard in comics/pulp/tv to make female characters journalists when they're intended to be spunky without actually needing them to demonstrate any particular knowledge, skill, or competence? Maybe. I think it's becuase journalism is such a nebulous undertaking, while still being categorically Brainy rather than Brawny - like a detective does similar poo poo, but there's an end result and measures of success. You'd have to demonstrate beats hitting those results and measures , same with something like teacher or Lawyer or something. Librarians and Paranormal Investigator are also things where a writer doesn't really have to demonstrate any particular skillset. But a journalist also has that thing where a person's job allows for traveling, so they aren't tied to one place. I think it's just an ease of use trope. I'm sorry, I mean a lazy trope.
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Oct 2, 2016 23:17
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Grave Peril is pretty bad, yeah. If it weren't the jumping-off point for the rest of the series, I'd start people off at Summer Knight instead, since that's really where the series starts to get good.
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Oct 2, 2016 23:22
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Drifter posted:Maybe. I think it's becuase journalism is such a nebulous undertaking, while still being categorically Brainy rather than Brawny - like a detective does similar poo poo, but there's an end result and measures of success. You'd have to demonstrate beats hitting those results and measures , same with something like teacher or Lawyer or something. Librarians and Paranormal Investigator are also things where a writer doesn't really have to demonstrate any particular skillset. Plus a journalist character is an easy way to introduce background or plot information, i.e. "I was doing some research and i found that ..." or "I talked to one of my sources in the department and he told me that..." As a tangent, I hate movies where the antagonistic reporter hounds a detective and prints hostile articles about him/her and the techniques they use. In my decades on earth, I've never read any kind of article like that in a newspaper, nor ever seen such a TV news report. It only happens in the movies and stands out to me as patently false whenever I see it.
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Oct 2, 2016 23:30
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Cythereal posted:Finished Grave Peril. It's my pick for weakest book so far while re-reading, and I've concluded I actively dislike Susan as a character. Is it just me, or is it a growing standard in comics/pulp/tv to make female characters journalists when they're intended to be spunky without actually needing them to demonstrate any particular knowledge, skill, or competence? I kind of like Susan, but I can't really say that I like her as a character. I just enjoy the way she interacted with Harry. It's just unfortunate for her that she had a lot of screen time before Butcher got his feet under him. I kind of wonder how Susan and her arc might change if Butcher went back and re-wrote the first two books. Journalist is probably used a lot because it gives that character a reason to stick their nose in the business of a hatless pyromaniac, or whatever. It probably would have made more sense, in retrospect, to make Susan another PI, maybe someone that Harry was trying to teach. Or something. I enjoyed Grave Peril. We got introduced to Michael, the Never Never was significant for the first time, Harry showed up to a vampire ball in Drac-face, etc. It felt like he really started to hit his stride there. I would be more inclined to pick Fool Moon or Storm Front as the weaker books, especially in terms of characterization.
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Oct 3, 2016 04:57
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I just remember feeling the introduction to Michael was a bit awkward - we're dropped en media res and now there's this God-fearing knight all of a sudden, and the cosmological questions that implies. I also though Michael's nemesis - some sort of dragon who only popped up in one subsequent book iirc - was corny. I also remember liking Fool Moon quite a bit, apart from Murphy's histrionics. Talking about lazy writing, it drives me batty when you have characters that are always too angry to listen and cut off characters before they can explain themselves. Butcher relied on that a lot early on with Murphy and Morgan. It can work once or twice, but quickly grows exasperating if overused.
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Oct 3, 2016 06:19
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Has it ever been stated that it was Harry's choice that was made differently? Because I can think of one early choice that would truly alter the course of history. If Morgan let Harry die in the fire at the end of Storm Front. 
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Oct 3, 2016 08:16
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Wizchine posted:I just remember feeling the introduction to Michael was a bit awkward - we're dropped en media res and now there's this God-fearing knight all of a sudden, and the cosmological questions that implies. I also though Michael's nemesis - some sort of dragon who only popped up in one subsequent book iirc - was corny. Ferrovax wasn't Micheal's nemesis. Where would you ever get that impression? He's just another Dragon that we get a glimpse of that is known as a Power in his own right (signatory of the Accords) that has a little light banter with Micheal at the party.
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Oct 3, 2016 12:09
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biracial bear for uncut posted:Ferrovax wasn't Micheal's nemesis. Where would you ever get that impression? ...and some heavy banter with Harry. Michael doesn't really have a nemesis. He and Nick are on the same page about their relationship, how the show is really the Coins vs the Swords, not the Nickel heads vs the Knights. Mr. Bad Guy fucked around with this message at 12:28 on Oct 3, 2016 |
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Oct 3, 2016 12:19
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Mr. Bad Guy posted:...and some heavy banter with Harry. This makes me wonder idly if Butcher ever had plans for the associated Cups and Wands to join in the fun.
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Oct 3, 2016 12:54
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biracial bear for uncut posted:Ferrovax wasn't Micheal's nemesis. Where would you ever get that impression? Michael rescued his wife from a dragon and he's the only one we've met. Not the same dragon, but an easy mistake.
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Oct 3, 2016 13:01
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EVGA Longoria posted:Michael rescued his wife from a dragon and he's the only one we've met. Not the same dragon, but an easy mistake. That still doesn't make either one a "nemesis" for Michael.
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Oct 3, 2016 13:04
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Lemniscate Blue posted:This makes me wonder idly if Butcher ever had plans for the associated Cups and Wands to join in the fun. You can kinda use the white council as wands(staves), which would just leave cups.
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Oct 3, 2016 15:30
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Wizchine posted:. Talking about lazy writing, it drives me batty when you have characters that are always too angry to listen and cut off characters before they can explain themselves. Murphy gave Harry a chance to explain himself and Harry straight-up lied to her.
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Oct 3, 2016 15:33
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hangedman1984 posted:You can kinda use the white council as wands(staves), which would just leave cups. The Faeries are the Cup faction, what with the talk of vessels in relation to their mantles settling in.
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Oct 3, 2016 15:43
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hangedman1984 posted:You can kinda use the white council as wands(staves), which would just leave cups. Literally the Faerie Courts. EDIT: 
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Oct 3, 2016 15:44
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Huh I never noticed the Tarot interpretation of the factions. It fits pretty well.
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Oct 3, 2016 15:51
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Aerdan posted:The Faeries are the Cup faction, what with the talk of vessels in relation to their mantles settling in. Three queens, one cup
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Oct 3, 2016 15:57
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flosofl posted:That still doesn't make either one a "nemesis" for Michael. Jesus, I read it 10 years ago. I remember he had an exchange along the lines of "I killed the dragon so and so" who was one of the last ones on earth, and I though the implication was that both were heading for a showdown in the future.
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Oct 3, 2016 17:50
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ImpAtom posted:Murphy gave Harry a chance to explain himself and Harry straight-up lied to her. I honestly don't remember the details of every interchange (again - 10 years since I read those early books), but I do remember the gist of the confrontations with Morgan and Karen were along those lines. Maybe I wasn't approaching Harry enough as an unreliable narrator.
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Oct 3, 2016 17:53
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If anything, Michael's 'nemesis' in Grave Peril is Mavra. He had recently destroyed a bunch of Black Court vampires and she was not too pleased about it. I'll be astonished if Ferrovax doesn't become more significant somehow before the end of the series, though.
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Oct 3, 2016 17:56
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Wizchine posted:I honestly don't remember the details of every interchange (again - 10 years since I read those early books), but I do remember the gist of the confrontations with Morgan and Karen were along those lines. Maybe I wasn't approaching Harry enough as an unreliable narrator. Basically Murphy calls Harry in and Harry knows what is going on and straight-up lies to her about it because he's all "muggles can't know about magic poo poo." Except Murphy actually discovers his lies and realizes the weird wizard dude she calls in is keeping information about a murder investigation from her. Harry even admits he was wrong to do it and it is the thing that makes him agreed to trust Murphy and let her in on stuff in the future rather than keeping to the Wizard Secrecy Bullshit. It's frustrating from an in-book perspective because we know Harry thought he had good reason to do it and Murphy isn't willing to trust him but it's because Harry explicitly lied about a murder investigation to her face.
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Oct 3, 2016 18:07
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docbeard posted:If anything, Michael's 'nemesis' in Grave Peril is Mavra. He had recently destroyed a bunch of Black Court vampires and she was not too pleased about it. Butcher's said Ferrovax will be involved in the final trilogy, yeah.
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Oct 3, 2016 20:09
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Wizchine posted:Jesus, I read it 10 years ago. I remember he had an exchange along the lines of "I killed the dragon so and so" who was one of the last ones on earth, and I though the implication was that both were heading for a showdown in the future. I think it was more that Ferrovax knew who Michael was, and would do what he could to kill Michael if given the opportunity. More of a "I dislike you enough to kill you, but not enough to waste my time going out looking for you," than anything else.
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Oct 3, 2016 20:22
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ImpAtom posted:It's frustrating from an in-book perspective because we know Harry thought he had good reason to do it and Murphy isn't willing to trust him but it's because Harry explicitly lied about a murder investigation to her face. For as much crap as he gets Harry's mostly right. Like he tells his apprentice not to mess with whatever she's trying to trap in that magic circle because it's too dangerous and way above her level, she does it anyway, predictably fails and gets killed. He doesn't tell Murphy what's going on because he knows she'd just try to do things by the book and will get herself and a bunch of cops killed, welp, she does anyway, and a werewolf goes on a rampage through the police station. He tells Susan not to be an idiot by going to a monster ball where she'll get eaten or worse, she comes anyway and ... yea. Like a lot of bad stuff happening in the early books could have been avoided if folks just listened and did as Harry says.
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Oct 4, 2016 08:29
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Blasphemeral posted:I love that joke. I need to use it more often. I can't take the credit. I stole it from Rifftrax :p
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Oct 4, 2016 08:53
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band name, though, that I kinda want a concert shirt for it.
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Avalerion posted:For as much crap as he gets Harry's mostly right. Like he tells his apprentice not to mess with whatever she's trying to trap in that magic circle because it's too dangerous and way above her level, she does it anyway, predictably fails and gets killed. He doesn't tell Murphy what's going on because he knows she'd just try to do things by the book and will get herself and a bunch of cops killed, welp, she does anyway, and a werewolf goes on a rampage through the police station. He tells Susan not to be an idiot by going to a monster ball where she'll get eaten or worse, she comes anyway and ... yea. Yeah, not like Harry could be bothered to explain why some things are a bad idea instead of being all "Me Boss, you not, do as I say".
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Oct 4, 2016 13:47
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biracial bear for uncut posted:Yeah, not like Harry could be bothered to explain why some things are a bad idea instead of being all "Me Boss, you not, do as I say". Yeah. The entire point of Fool Moon (inasmuch as it had one) is that, while Harry's right about this poo poo being dangerous, he's wrong about keeping people ignorant being the best way to keep them out of danger. (Murphy did nothing wrong)
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Oct 4, 2016 13:51
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Avalerion posted:For as much crap as he gets Harry's mostly right. Like he tells his apprentice not to mess with whatever she's trying to trap in that magic circle because it's too dangerous and way above her level, she does it anyway, predictably fails and gets killed. He doesn't tell Murphy what's going on because he knows she'd just try to do things by the book and will get herself and a bunch of cops killed, welp, she does anyway, and a werewolf goes on a rampage through the police station. He tells Susan not to be an idiot by going to a monster ball where she'll get eaten or worse, she comes anyway and ... yea. In Fool Moon, Murphy doesn't really have any real reason to listen to Harry. People are dying, he's obviously withholding, and all he can say is, "You just have to trust me." His sorta-apprentice dies because neither of them are willing to trust each other. He holds things back because he suspects she's up to something that could potentially be very bad; she holds things back out of respect for her client and because she knows Harry will clam up if he gets an inkling of the danger. In Grave Peril, he does tell Susan about the thing- but he doesn't adequately convey the level of danger. This is probably because he doesn't know the breadth of Bianca's killboner. Susan knows about the supernatural, but she doesn't have Harry's level of experience. She underestimates the seriousness of it. Her want to know more about supernatural critters wins out. It isn't that they aren't listening to Harry. It's that they all have their own wants and goals.
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Oct 4, 2016 14:08
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Avalerion posted:For as much crap as he gets Harry's mostly right... Except that trust is earned, and Harry playing things too close to the chest doesn't earn him any trust. Like, if he explained just how dangerous some of those things were rather than just saying "it's too dangerous, leave it alone," people might be more willing to trust--and therefore listen--to him. Basically, this: biracial bear for uncut posted:Yeah, not like Harry could be bothered to explain why some things are a bad idea instead of being all "Me Boss, you not, do as I say".
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Oct 4, 2016 16:44
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Just knocked out Summer Knight. This is definitely where Butcher hits his stride - Harry becomes less of an rear end in a top hat, Murphy becomes more competent, the Alphas solidify their position as comic relief, and the faeries are some of the most compelling characters in the series, I think because they play to Butcher's strengths as erratic, tricky, and glamorous in the literal sense of the word. I also think in retrospect it's a good intro to Nemesis. Victor Sells in Storm Front could have been self-taught, a naturally talented mage who slipped through the cracks and never had the White Council find him. The FBI agents in Fool Moon probably had no idea what they were messing with at first and it's possible whoever gave them the Hexenwulf belts didn't know, either (not likely, but possible). Summer Knight, though, straight up hints at something very wrong and very magically powerful going on. Summer Knight is the first book I ever read in the series - I only went back and read the first three after I enjoyed this one - and I think it holds up pretty well. A good entry point for people new to the series.
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Oct 4, 2016 19:54
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Huh. I've been reading the Dresden subreddit and someone brought up an interesting point. Lasciel created Sheila to talk to Harry and give him advice. Immediately afterwards, Malcolm appears to Harry in a dream because "others have crossed the line". Now, later in the series one of the Fallen speaks 7 words so Uriel is allowed to act with 7 words to balance it out. So that said, was that really Malcolm or Uriel creating the image of Malcolm to speak to Harry just like he did the janitor in Small Favor? I'd like to think it really was his dad, but given the fact that he was able to 'keep the fire lit' and thus keep Lash at bay for the rest of the night it seems more likely something more was going on. It sounds to me like Uriel took notice of Harry far earlier than Small Favor, probably as soon as he picked up the coin. Uriel does mention that he had a hand in Butters coming back to save Harry from Quintus Cassius after all.
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Oct 5, 2016 08:28
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My theory for a while has been that Malcolm's spirit works for Uriel in the same way that Murphy's dad does.
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Oct 5, 2016 10:14
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Blasphemeral posted:Except that trust is earned, and Harry playing things too close to the chest doesn't earn him any trust. Like, if he explained just how dangerous some of those things were rather than just saying "it's too dangerous, leave it alone," people might be more willing to trust--and therefore listen--to him. I agree, but apparently the only thing the entire magic realm can agree on is "keep mortals the gently caress away" and he was on his last strike, I can understand some reluctance to share Though he does advertise so idk
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Oct 5, 2016 13:03
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docbeard posted:My theory for a while has been that Malcolm's spirit works for Uriel in the same way that Murphy's dad does. That could be. It's been said that something killed him rather than him just dying in his sleep. My guess would be Justin, getting Harry loose of his family and into the system where he'd lay some groundwork for independence and develop a need for a stand-in family. It would be a good basis for a loyal magical thug.
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Oct 5, 2016 21:13
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Dresden's on sale on Audible at the moment. They're not huge discounts, but if you were thinking of buying them anyways, it is as good a time as any. Working For Bigfoot is only ten bucks.
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Oct 7, 2016 14:28
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NerdyMcNerdNerd posted:In Grave Peril, he does tell Susan about the thing- but he doesn't adequately convey the level of danger. This is probably because he doesn't know the breadth of Bianca's killboner. Susan knows about the supernatural, but she doesn't have Harry's level of experience. She underestimates the seriousness of it. Her want to know more about supernatural critters wins out. Actually, why does Bianca have such a killboner? If I remember right she thinks Harry killed one of her workers, but why would a rather old vampire care so much about a human - especially when it risks getting into a fight with the White Council which is at this point the undisputed magical heavyweight champion of the world? Now the Red Court are planning to challenge this, but if she knows about the coming war it's all the more reason not to kick it off early and if she doesn't know about it then why is the risking starting something with the Council?
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Oct 9, 2016 21:51
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Darkrenown posted:Actually, why does Bianca have such a killboner? If I remember right she thinks Harry killed one of her workers, but why would a rather old vampire care so much about a human - especially when it risks getting into a fight with the White Council which is at this point the undisputed magical heavyweight champion of the world? Now the Red Court are planning to challenge this, but if she knows about the coming war it's all the more reason not to kick it off early and if she doesn't know about it then why is the risking starting something with the Council? Early Installment Weirdness, perhaps; Jim hadn't thought of the Unseelie Accords in Storm Front, I don't think, so there wouldn't have been incentive for Bianca to not rock the boat. That said, even if the human in question weren't of personal relevance to her, Bianca could still have a 'protect my property' attitude, which isn't that uncommon in the supernatural world from what we've seen later on.
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Oct 9, 2016 21:57
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