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Or you could get some exotic wood and hand carve the whole thing. I would advice putting a hinged top on it whatever you do, makes it easier to clean out if you need too. Muck off is safe and will shift bird crap easily.
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Oct 2, 2016 12:35
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I have options next pay day. The context is that most of my problems are caused by having a huge kitchen table made out of glass. This can be moved into another room thus freeing up space, however I still need to be able to eat at whatever table I put in there. 1. the restoration job. Drop leaf table, looks like it was built in a shed, ugly but sturdy. Value of the wood is the same as the table. 2. workbench from amazon. More expensive option but when you tot up the price of the wood and the work which has already been done it's well worth it. Downside is that we are very clearly eating breakfast on a workbench and it's not exactly a fun project for my money. 3. Make my own dining table workbench . The most fun and difficult of all the options, especially given the limitations of my space. I was thinking a big cupboard on lockable castors with a solid wood top overlapping slightly so I can use clamps. The wood, if the delivery is right, would be 420-500mm wide 37mm thick unfinished chestnut crown board. Comes to the same money as the workbench. E:4. a second work mate? learnincurve fucked around with this message at 14:49 on Oct 2, 2016 |
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Oct 2, 2016 13:30
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snucks posted:The bookshelf is done! Took your guys' advice about the sliding dovetails and tenons. Apologizes for the lovely camera and lovely lighting. I've got to make some shelves for an antique booth we rent, do you think that method could hold the weight of a bunch of random items?
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Oct 2, 2016 14:49
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Parts Kit posted:That looks great! I like the two tone look. What you need is the Sagulator.
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Oct 2, 2016 15:04
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learnincurve posted:I have options next pay day. The context is that most of my problems are caused by having a huge kitchen table made out of glass. This can be moved into another room thus freeing up space, however I still need to be able to eat at whatever table I put in there. 3 sounds the best. Maybe you can start with the unadorned top on horses, then gradually modify it. 50cm wide seems narrow to me, especially if you want cabinets under (unless one end has cabinets and the other is for eating, or you eat standing). There are all of those neat modular devices that use holes in the bench top. Castor cabinet(s) can double as a side table if you keep the horses.
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Oct 2, 2016 15:25
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PSA: If you are doing hand tool woodworking and building a bench for such, cabinets underneath get in the way, they interfere with holdfast usage as well as removing many options to clamp your work to the bench. You want your front legs in plane with the front edge of the top so you can clamp wide boards / panels to the front of the bench to work on their edges. 50cm is plenty fine, my Roubo is barely more than that and going down to 18" in depth is not unheard of. A bench can definitely be too deep, so anything over 24" is going to make clamping a cabinet carcass over the end of it difficult. GEMorris fucked around with this message at 16:44 on Oct 2, 2016 |
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Oct 2, 2016 16:39
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500mm was because if I build it any bigger I won't be able to get it out of the door, however if I use the horses then there is a lovely wider bit of "character" walnut I can get my paws on. I bet you chaps don't have to deal with this :\ quote:10 cu/ft x 27mm
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Oct 2, 2016 17:38
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Has anyone ever used metal shavings and epoxy in a project? I was thinking about inlay materials for a project and was wondering what that would look like.
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Oct 2, 2016 19:28
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Nothing wrong with cabinets under workbenches. The reason you don't see cabinets under many historical benches are for 2 reasons, 1) they were built onsite, left in the open, and were temporary (e.g. Nicholson style) or 2) they were built in professional shops for use by employees who kept their tools in a chest to protect them from being stolen and have a way to transport them as necessary (much like today). If you are building a bench at home there is no reason you can't have cabinets underneath if that is your desire. It's not uncommon to leave a space so that you can use holdfasts and have cabinets; or you can work without holdfasts, they weren't universally used. Despite what a certain popular woodworker claims, workbenches are very much subject to fad and fashion in the modern day.
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Oct 2, 2016 20:05
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wormil posted:Nothing wrong with cabinets under workbenches. The reason you don't see cabinets under many historical benches are for 2 reasons, 1) they were built onsite, left in the open, and were temporary (e.g. Nicholson style) or 2) they were built in professional shops for use by employees who kept their tools in a chest to protect them from being stolen and have a way to transport them as necessary (much like today). If you are building a bench at home there is no reason you can't have cabinets underneath if that is your desire. It's not uncommon to leave a space so that you can use holdfasts and have cabinets; or you can work without holdfasts, they weren't universally used. Despite what a certain popular woodworker claims, workbenches are very much subject to fad and fashion in the modern day. I agree with this. A personal workbench should fit the worker and the workflow - I'm planning to put a couple drawers on the right hand side of my bench for my carving chisels. Will post my plans for critique once I'm happy with them
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Oct 2, 2016 20:38
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wormil posted:Nothing wrong with cabinets under workbenches. The reason you don't see cabinets under many historical benches are for 2 reasons, 1) they were built onsite, left in the open, and were temporary (e.g. Nicholson style) or 2) they were built in professional shops for use by employees who kept their tools in a chest to protect them from being stolen and have a way to transport them as necessary (much like today). If you are building a bench at home there is no reason you can't have cabinets underneath if that is your desire. It's not uncommon to leave a space so that you can use holdfasts and have cabinets; or you can work without holdfasts, they weren't universally used. Despite what a certain popular woodworker claims, workbenches are very much subject to fad and fashion in the modern day. I'm waiting for reports of workbench drag races coming out of Texas, much like their belt sander races because Texas.
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Oct 2, 2016 21:24
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wormil posted:Nothing wrong with cabinets under workbenches. The reason you don't see cabinets under many historical benches are for 2 reasons, 1) they were built onsite, left in the open, and were temporary (e.g. Nicholson style) or 2) they were built in professional shops for use by employees who kept their tools in a chest to protect them from being stolen and have a way to transport them as necessary (much like today). If you are building a bench at home there is no reason you can't have cabinets underneath if that is your desire. It's not uncommon to leave a space so that you can use holdfasts and have cabinets; or you can work without holdfasts, they weren't universally used. Despite what a certain popular woodworker claims, workbenches are very much subject to fad and fashion in the modern day. I don't think he claims that modern workbenches arent subject to fad and fashion. I'm pretty sure he claims they are and shouldn't be, as people who knew a poo poo ton more than anyone currently alive does about woodworking did a pretty drat good job of perfecting the form for a lot of really good reasons and it's very much hubris to think anyone as a hobbyist is going to do better than generations of craftsmen who went through apprenticeship programs.
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Oct 2, 2016 23:31
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:What you need is the Sagulator.
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Oct 3, 2016 00:01
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:What you need is the Sagulator.
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Oct 3, 2016 03:16
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GEMorris posted:... hubris to think anyone as a hobbyist is going to do better than generations of craftsmen who went through apprenticeship programs. Cabinetry under workbenches wasn't invented by hobbyists.
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Oct 3, 2016 03:26
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wormil posted:Actually the Wood Whisperer has several excellent videos ...
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Oct 3, 2016 06:07
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Reading the debate has made my mind up. If that drop leaf table is still available then I'm getting that and a smaller workbench. If it's not then it will be workbench and oak so I can make a smaller table for the kitchen. e: this is the deal I found, cheapest by far, same with the cherry and beech packs. http://www.scawtonsawmill.co.uk/kd-oak-sawn-square-edge21m-x-27mm-x-various-widths-507-p.asp learnincurve fucked around with this message at 10:32 on Oct 3, 2016 |
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Oct 3, 2016 10:10
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wormil posted:Cabinetry under workbenches wasn't invented by hobbyists. You are absolutely correct. Some of those historical examples work better than others or existed for specific types of work (general carpentry vs cabinetmaking) The safest way to add storage to a bench is to make sure you have holdfast and clamp clearance between the bottom of the top and the top of your cabinets. This is not how any new bench builder has ever approached it in my experience. Instead you see a lot of examples of the top directly on the cabinets. Some considerations for people building their first bench
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Oct 3, 2016 14:40
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GEMorris posted:I don't think he claims that modern workbenches arent subject to fad and fashion. I'm pretty sure he claims they are and shouldn't be, as people who knew a poo poo ton more than anyone currently alive does about woodworking did a pretty drat good job of perfecting the form for a lot of really good reasons and it's very much hubris to think anyone as a hobbyist is going to do better than generations of craftsmen who went through apprenticeship programs. I had a guy work for me in the 80's who went through the German woodworking apprenticeship program. He was super meticulous and I envied his obvious skill. He had also been an adolescent Hitler Youth in Berlin who pulled his neighbors' corpses out of bombed-out apartments with his bare hands for the last year of the war. He was batshit crazy.
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Oct 3, 2016 15:11
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quote:Instead you see a lot of examples of the top directly on the cabinets. !!! and in the final chapter of today's issue of woodworking in a tiny space GEMorris has come up with the solution in a round about way. I have a 1200x1200x18mm plywood board earmarked for a dressing table. No reason at all why I could not make a hinged top which would sit directly on the workbench when not in use, paint it up lovely, stick a table cloth over it and it's now a dining table.
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Oct 3, 2016 19:35
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GEMorris posted:You are absolutely correct. That's why I posted it. But it isn't correct because because a Schwarz blog kind of agrees with me, it's correct because it makes good sense and is accurate to how people worked historically and still work today. I'm a fan of the Schwarz and respect his research but I was well on my woodworking path and had already built furniture using handtools before Christopher Schwarz was an editor at Popular Woodworking, before his hand tool epiphany. I say that to say this ... don't look at Schwarz as a kind of woodworking messiah because he's not. He's a man that is passionate about woodworking and feeds his family by promoting a certain viewpoint, but it's not the only one. If you were a 17th century apprentice then you would be allowed one opinion, your master's. As a hobbyist you have the luxury of being open to many viewpoints on the craft so take advantage. And if I have you wrong then it's only because on here it seems every opinion you post is from a Schwarz book or blog.
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Oct 3, 2016 19:44
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Mr. Mambold posted:He was batshit crazy. I bet you guys made an interesting pair.
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Oct 3, 2016 19:45
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wormil posted:As a hobbyist you have the luxury of being open to many viewpoints on the craft so take advantage. And if I have you wrong then it's only because on here it seems every opinion you post is from a Schwarz book or blog. I wasted a lot of time learning from writers who just made stuff up as they went because they didn't do real research and didn't go through apprenticeship programs. The guy isn't a Messiah but he sure as poo poo is doing the most meaningful work in the woodworking research/writing/education field, and has the unique position for me of having never steered me wrong. Just because you disagree with him or don't like how popular he is or don't like how I cite him frequently doesn't make any of his stuff wrong. The only reason I even post in this thread is an apparently vain attempt to save people from wasting as much money and time as I wasted on misinformation as the field is rife with it.
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Oct 3, 2016 19:53
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When did the roubo bench get so popular? I was looking at the benchcrafted plans and hardware and it's like $1200 plus the wood. That's bonkers. I was going to splash out on like, a maple top and one quick-release face vise
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Oct 3, 2016 20:04
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Skippy Granola posted:When did the roubo bench get so popular? Around 1500ad Recently? When Schwarz wrote his first book about workbenches (2005/2006 for the first articles in PWW, 2007 for the book). You don't have to have bench crafted vises, or a tail vise at all. I built mine with Southern Yellow Pine and it's been great. Ran me around $300 plus a lot of labor.
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Oct 3, 2016 20:14
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Uh, what? E: oh, it includes their $200 and $600 vises.
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Oct 3, 2016 20:16
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GEMorris posted:Around 1500ad What I think I'll do is go for a shaker-style bench with one of these sweeties on the face I don't need much but the sjoberg compact workbench has zero weight so I have to stand on one of the rails when I'm planing. It has made my rudimentary joinery about 300% more difficult
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Oct 3, 2016 20:27
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Skippy Granola posted:What I think I'll do is go for a shaker-style bench with one of these sweeties on the face This is why I beg people to make their own bench. The ones commercially for sale don't have the mass or racking resistance needed for hand tool woodworking. Just please make sure you have clearance for holdfasts between the top and the cabinets. I'm a big fan of leg vises and I made mine with a slab of ash and a $50 German tail vise screw. It requires a pin but I've been thinking about splurging on a crisscross once I get a few more hand tool purchases behind me. Not sure I ever will as I don't mind the pin at all. GEMorris fucked around with this message at 20:36 on Oct 3, 2016 |
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Oct 3, 2016 20:32
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In my defense I initially bought it for wood carving, which is usually a lot lower impact. Served me well for a couple of years. Now that I've fallen down the slippery slope of joinery I need something more robust. Need to make some modifications to the design though - I don't use holdfasts and I'm 6'4" so I need some height.
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Oct 3, 2016 20:38
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Skippy Granola posted:In my defense I initially bought it for wood carving, which is usually a lot lower impact. Served me well for a couple of years. Completely serious and non critical question: how do you hold down work for planing? Planing stop? Chuck everything in the tail vise? I feel like you could laminate some thickness to the bottom of one of those commercial benches (or at least to the front 10" or so), add a much beefier undercarriage (with front legs planar to the front edge of the bench) and do just fine mass/racking resistance wise. Edit: just looked up your bench. I'd turn that into a joinery bench (something I've wanted for a long time) and build a 7'+ Nicholson or Roubo, if you have the space, bit that's just me. Planing long boards on bench that short is always going to be a challenge regardless of mass. GEMorris fucked around with this message at 20:58 on Oct 3, 2016 |
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Oct 3, 2016 20:54
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I only usually work on short stock so I've just been holding it in the face vise. I guess it would have been smarter to dog it into the tail vise. The problem is the forward friction from planing tips the whole thing forward along the length. Maybe I could get away with just building new legs and screwing the top to it?
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Oct 3, 2016 21:02
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Skippy Granola posted:
That's exactly what I'd do.
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Oct 3, 2016 21:06
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Well there's my thanksgiving project! It really is a very nice bench top and the vises are great. Guess those lovely flat-pack legs were always bound to be a problem.
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Oct 3, 2016 21:08
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The problem with manufactured benches is by the time they make it have enough mass to be good and pay to ship it the cost is way more than people want to spend. If you want to explore turning your current bench into a joinery bench and building a second bench, check this out (also check it out for work holding examples) https://youtu.be/yvhn-PAfEW4
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Oct 3, 2016 21:12
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wormil posted:I bet you guys made an interesting pair. I had to fire him after a week. Home construction is not OCD level that he was used to. He had pics of a Canadian World Fair scale model of their exhibit he'd done with a router (which they had as part of the exhibit). He also said God told him to come down from Canada to wake us up about communism before it was too late. Maybe he wasn't so crazy after all. But I think what happened was his wife threw him out and he went walkabout.
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Oct 3, 2016 21:17
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GEMorris posted:The guy isn't a Messiah but he sure as poo poo is doing the most meaningful work in the woodworking research/writing/education field, and has the unique position for me of having never steered me wrong. I'm a fan of Chris Schwarz but you are overplaying his part. A few years ago I had a disagreement about how to use hand planes. The guy told me I was brainwashed by Schwarz. Thing is, I learned how to use a hand plane before anyone heard of Schwarz. He didn't invent hand plane techniques, but he did a really good job in recent years of bringing them to the masses and shouting down a lot of misinformation (like the kind you mentioned). What just occurred to me is that the person responsible for bring a lot of old techniques and ways of woodworking to the forefront is Norm Abrams. Not because he taught them but because he didn't. Up until the 80's and really the early 90's, to learn traditional techniques you either read a book or went to an expensive woodworking school. Norm started teaching his way of woodworking and there was kind of a rebellion against it of which Schwarz is a product. GEMorris posted:Just please make sure you have clearance for holdfasts between the top and the cabinets. If you choose to use holdfasts. Going from memory but I don't think all the workbenches in Roubo's drawings had holdfasts. The Shakers built tons of furniture and didn't use hold fasts. Ian Kirby's bench doesn't use holdfasts. I'm not anti-holdfast, but I'm trying to point out that it is ONE way of woodworking, not the only way.
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Oct 3, 2016 21:24
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Can anyone recommend a good hardwood that doesn't yellow as much as maple when mineral oil is applied? Looking for something light that will contrast enough next to maple to be noticeable.
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Oct 3, 2016 21:27
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keep it down up there! posted:Can anyone recommend a good hardwood that doesn't yellow as much as maple when mineral oil is applied? Holly
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Oct 3, 2016 21:30
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You know it's actually completely different in the UK, this isn't new, it's how things have been done since schools came about. Woodworking and metal working is mandatory for secondary school children (e: for 2-3 years depending on your school) and they can keep on doing both or one of them for 7 years if they like. My 12 year old daughter came home telling me how she had used a oxyacetylene blowtorch the other day. We learn on enormous benches for two people with ludicrously large vices and all the hand tools you want. The first thing my class made was a dovetailed box, no power tools, a bench plane which needs sharpening, and rough misshapen wood. Then we had to burn a design on the lid, finish and varnish - Each part of the process being one lesson.
learnincurve fucked around with this message at 21:45 on Oct 3, 2016 |
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Oct 3, 2016 21:40
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GEMorris posted:The problem with manufactured benches is by the time they make it have enough mass to be good and pay to ship it the cost is way more than people want to spend. Uh oh I'm coming around on holdfasts. And that bench he was using looks just the right size for my tiny suboptimal basement workshop
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Oct 3, 2016 21:58
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