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wormil posted:I'm not anti-holdfast, but I'm trying to point out that it is ONE way of woodworking, not the only way. Your "every way is valid" approach does not help anyone who is new and does not have enough experience to discern what is and isn't misinformation. We are in an era with both tons of information, but also very well established and proven information, we should probably direct new people towards the latter, proven, researched, and widely used in the historic record until they learn enough to know when these traditional solutions will not work for them. I'll take the woodworkers of continental Europe over those of an american sect.
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Oct 3, 2016 22:27
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GEMorris, I go from enjoying your views on woodworking to wondering when we'll all have to start wearing Yellow Amateur stars on our lapels. I should say I lean much more heavily on the enjoyment bit. Cannon_Fodder fucked around with this message at 23:18 on Oct 3, 2016 |
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Oct 3, 2016 22:31
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It's a lesson in critical thinking!
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Oct 3, 2016 22:38
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He's not entirely wrong though. OK you can use dowels or pocket holes if you like and that's a perfectly valid thing to do but it's not really on the same level as a master craftsman. The extreme end is those people who buy those make your own hunting knife kits and it's a blade blank, a handle in two bits, and some screws "I made this knife" "no you didn't you assembled it". e: but I'll admit it's easy for me to say stuff like this given that I was taught the basics as a child using hand tools only, not so easy when you are coming into it as an adult. learnincurve fucked around with this message at 22:55 on Oct 3, 2016 |
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Oct 3, 2016 22:49
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edit, nm.
wormil fucked around with this message at 05:28 on Oct 4, 2016 |
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Oct 3, 2016 23:00
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wormil posted:edit, I'm trying very hard to stay polite and have patience with you. I'll reply later. Don't, it's an online comedy forum.
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Oct 3, 2016 23:20
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wormil posted:What just occurred to me is that the person responsible for bring a lot of old techniques and ways of woodworking to the forefront is Norm Abrams. Not because he taught them but because he didn't. Up until the 80's and really the early 90's, to learn traditional techniques you either read a book or went to an expensive woodworking school. Norm started teaching his way of woodworking and there was kind of a rebellion against it of which Schwarz is a product. I agree with most of what you've said, but I just have to point out that Roy Underhill's been nearly cutting off his thumb with traditional techniques on camera since 1979 (and it's been shown nation-wide since 81). NYW didn't start until 89 (though, admittedly, TOH has been on air since 79 as well).
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Oct 3, 2016 23:26
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learnincurve posted:He's not entirely wrong though. OK you can use dowels or pocket holes if you like and that's a perfectly valid thing to do but it's not really on the same level as a master craftsman. The extreme end is those people who buy those make your own hunting knife kits and it's a blade blank, a handle in two bits, and some screws "I made this knife" "no you didn't you assembled it". Cannon_Fodder posted:GEMorris, I go from enjoying your views on woodworking to wondering when we'll all have to start wearing Yellow Amateur stars on our lapels. I am also not a master craftsman of any sort. I don't want to "beat up" anyone for trying something new, or out of ignorance, or anything else. All I've ever tried to do I question when people assert 'knowledge' that contradicts what I know as best practice, and to try to steer new folks away from known money / time pitfalls which litter the woodworking landscape. Pretending like everyone's unique snowflake bench idea is equally valid is not helpful. Pretending that just because one person or a small group of people did a thing that it is equally valid when compared to centuries of activity on an entire continent is also not helpful. Magnus Praeda posted:I agree with most of what you've said, but I just have to point out that Roy Underhill's been nearly cutting off his thumb with traditional techniques on camera since 1979 (and it's been shown nation-wide since 81). NYW didn't start until 89 (though, admittedly, TOH has been on air since 79 as well). Also this. It is very in vouge to hate on Schwarz lately and there's absolutely no valid reason for it other than hating his 'celebrity status' which isn't even a valid reason. GEMorris fucked around with this message at 23:31 on Oct 3, 2016 |
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Oct 3, 2016 23:29
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A buddy at work had a big lilac tree fall down and offered to give me the trunk. I think most of it has some rot/punky wood through the core but I split one of the good bits in half yesterday and whipped of a spoon for my friend to thank him. Not exactly even, but that's how you know it's hand made, right? Hopefully it doesn't split as it dries A few more pictures: https://imgur.com/gallery/RQ9rV
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Oct 3, 2016 23:39
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GEMorris posted:Your "every way is valid" approach does not help anyone who is new and does not have enough experience to discern what is and isn't misinformation. Earlier in the thread you said you weren't the biggest fan of Paul Sellers and I was confused and I wanted to ask you about it but it was a while ago. Figured it's a good time to ask now.
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Oct 4, 2016 01:19
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GEMorris posted:Pretending that just because one person or a small group of people did a thing that it is equally valid when compared to centuries of activity on an entire continent is also not Okay let's clear this up. First you haven't contradicted me, and I doubt you can debate me without a Schwarz blog telling you what to say. What irks you is that I exposed gaping holes in your knowledge that exist because you've chosen to restrict your learning. The less polite way of saying it is your head is so far up Schwarz' rear end that you are incapable of learning unless he digests it for you. I have plenty more to say if it needs to be said but I'm hoping we can turn the discussion back to where you admitted I was correct and leave it at that.
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Oct 4, 2016 01:20
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I knocked out a little halfsize picnic table for my 2 yr old nephews birthday. It's not perfect, but it was a fun little project. My other nephew will be getting one made out of cedar for his birthday and I may remake this one. I didn't want to lay out the money for cedar since this one was a bit of a prototype in size. But it seems like it was the perfect size with some room for him to grow in to it. 
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Oct 4, 2016 01:22
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Started doing the leg joinery on my next project, a chest of drawers that will double as a change table for the baby on the way. Going with double tenons in the legs for coolness and strength, I accidentally cut an extra mortise in one leg, good thing it goes at the back.  If you look closely you can see the cabinet beneath my bench with a large enough gap to not interfere with my holdfasts. Meow Meow Meow fucked around with this message at 01:33 on Oct 4, 2016 |
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Oct 4, 2016 01:28
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Flattened Spoon posted:Earlier in the thread you said you weren't the biggest fan of Paul Sellers and I was confused and I wanted to ask you about it but it was a while ago. Figured it's a good time to ask now. Sellers is a bad writer, he goes off on rambling tangents. He occasionally contradicts things he's said in previous tangents. wormil posted:Okay let's clear this up. First you haven't contradicted me, and I doubt you can debate me without a Schwarz blog telling you what to say. What irks you is that I exposed gaping holes in your knowledge that exist because you've chosen to restrict your learning. The less polite way of saying it is your head is so far up Schwarz' rear end that you are incapable of learning unless he digests it for you. I have plenty more to say if it needs to be said but I'm hoping we can turn the discussion back to where you admitted I was correct and leave it at that. Yeah let's leave it where you just openly insult me multiple times, sure thing bud, you win the internet.
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Oct 4, 2016 01:41
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Why are mommy and daddy fighting In totally unrelated news, my shop is finally getting electricity come Thursday. In the mean time, I'm putting a floor in the attic to make some usable storage space. So much room for activities!   I have two more bays to fill with tubasixes and then I'll haul up a dozen sheets of OSB. Leaving a bay at each end open, one for stairs, and one as a way to pull larger items up. Thinking about hanging a block and tackle from the beam there, as it's a 10' climb and that'd be super nice. Anyhow, I want to install some lights in the next couple days in anticipation of the coming juice. Thinking LED, and daylight color temps, and ungodly bright to the point where it seems the roof came off if you don't look up. Any recommendations? My last shop I just put in a pie of T12s but I guess those are done now and I want to go LED anyhow. I generally prefer tube-lights for a workspace since they don't make hard shadows, and I could just get faux-t12 (or t8 or whatever) LED tubes, but is there a better way? Bad Munki fucked around with this message at 01:56 on Oct 4, 2016 |
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Oct 4, 2016 01:48
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Bad Munki posted:Why are mommy and daddy fighting
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Oct 4, 2016 02:00
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Slugworth posted:What uh, kinda bench you planning on putting in there? 
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Oct 4, 2016 02:04
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Thanks to this whole slapfight I now know what drawboring is (I've done it, but not known it was a thing with a name, so yay) Also, end to side grain gluing sucks? What is the correct way? Side/side? And a tenon does this where a dowel does not by virtue of being flat and not round so you have big ol faces of side grain touching each other? Neat. 
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Oct 4, 2016 02:07
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No drawers, checks out
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Oct 4, 2016 02:09
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GEMorris posted:Yeah let's leave it where you just openly insult me multiple times, sure thing bud, you win the internet. You're drat right I do.  I tried to be polite first but you weren't listening. This type of bickering bores me because there is nothing gained from it. If my posts came off as Schwarz bashing I didn't mean them too. It's not that I think you are wrong or that he is wrong but Schwarz tends to attract dogmatic followers. And I don't think you will disagree with me on that. But dogmatism suppresses knowledge that isn't okayed by group think. You see this a lot on reddit -- you can give someone a correct answer but it gets downvoted because most of them haven't seen the answer before and if they haven't seen it then it must be wrong. Then a wrong answer gets upvoted because it's familiar. A lot of woodworking myths get perpetuated this way. A workbench without dogholes isn't wrong, it's just another way of working and has been historically successful; it's just out of fashion at the moment. Give 10 or 15 years and the French style bench will be out of fashion and something else will be all the rage; and you'll be the one arguing, '...but dogholes are very useful;' to someone who is convinced they are an anachronism. VVVVV edit; I'm just contentious. I don't dislike you. VVVVVV wormil fucked around with this message at 03:12 on Oct 4, 2016 |
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Oct 4, 2016 02:40
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So am I supposed to burn all my Lost Art Press books or just the ones Schwarz wrote? Cause I think By Hand and Eye and the whole Charles Hayward collections are pretty awesome. I point new people towards Schwarz because he's 3 things: 1. Prolific 2. Accessible 3. Seldom wrong Just because I cite and direct people towards him doesn't mean I don't read anyone else, that's just the narrative of me you've written in your own head. GEMorris fucked around with this message at 03:13 on Oct 4, 2016 |
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Oct 4, 2016 02:52
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Slugworth posted:No drawers, checks out I laughed to myself.
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Oct 4, 2016 03:09
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So I am starting to buy some hand tools. For now, I am not going the route of the power planer or jointer for squaring wood due to cost/noise/space. There's a Lee Valley store locally which is convenient, but after the sticker shock of seeing their new premium bench plane prices I thought I would go the vintage path. Watching some YouTube videos convinced me to try restoring an old hand plane so I bought a rusty old Stanley Bailey no. 5 jack plane off of eBay. It should arrive next week, and then I will see how things go. I'm looking forward to giving it a try as I find tinkering/fixing up stuff like this satisfying (when it goes well). I already have some sharpening stuff I've used for chisels and kitchen knives so that part should be relatively straightforward. For those hand plane users out there, what are your most-used ones? My intent is to do small projects like boxes but perhaps bookshelves and larger furniture in the future. Is a block plane and/or smoothing plane a good investment if I end up liking the jack plane?
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Oct 4, 2016 03:16
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First, great call grabbing a #5 first, that's the first plane I'd recommend for anyone (unless they were doing some incredibly specialized work). Yes a block plane should likely be your next plane, regardless if you are planning on getting a lot of tools eventually or if you are trying to keep your investment really minimal. I'd advise getting a premium adjustable mouth low angle plane here, but if budget is of primary concern a good vintage Miller's falls of Stanley could do. You may need a new blade so be sure to factor that into your calculations. If you want to stay super minimal I'd get a second blade for the no 5, having one heavily cambered for roughing and one very lightly cambered for straightening and smoothing. Before getting any more bench planes, at this point I would at least have the following: 1. Router plane 2. High quality 1/2" bevel edge chisel 3. High quality 1/4" mortise chisel 4. Carcass saw 5. Dovetail saw If you are going for the three primary bench planes ( jack, jointer, smoother) I'd pick up the jointer before the smoother if you don't have power equipment. If I could only buy one premium plane it would be this one. GEMorris fucked around with this message at 03:32 on Oct 4, 2016 |
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Oct 4, 2016 03:26
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GEMorris posted:First, great call grabbing a #5 first, that's the first plane I'd recommend for anyone (unless they were doing some incredibly specialized work). Thank you for the advice! I was looking at eBay listings for block planes as well but there seems to be ten million different types, so the Miller's Falls recommendation is appreciated and I'll look into it. I had been thinking of perhaps splurging on one premium plane so I will consider going for a LV low angle block plane or jointer. I did actually just splurge on the Veritas dovetail saw and have been practicing a bit with that. My understanding is a mortising chisel is thicker to take a beating and curved to make removing waste from chips easier? I should mention I do have a small table saw with a flat top grind blade thinking that for now I will use that to cut dadoes/rabbets (as well as rough cutting) instead of shelling out for a power router kit since that plus bits would get quite expensive. I watched a video of Mark Spagnolo pumping up the router plane as a nice clean up tool even if you go the power route so I will keep that on my mind as well. Really at this point I guess I need to start making stuff to see what my personal preferences and needs are.
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Oct 4, 2016 03:57
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Monoclinic posted:Thank you for the advice! I was looking at eBay listings for block planes as well but there seems to be ten million different types, so the Miller's Falls recommendation is appreciated and I'll look into it. For the block plane if you go Miller's Falls get a no 56 or no 57, that's the adjustable mouth low angle version. You can get by fine with a vintage router plane, personally I like the Stanley 71 1/2 which is closed mouth. I find the open mouth router planes fiddly and annoying. Mortise chisels are thicker and don't have beveled sides, for many reasons but primarily so they can take a beating. The best option here for little $ is the Narex line sold by Lee valley, their products have a somewhat iffy rep outside of Lee valley, but I've read multiple accounts of people saying the lv sold Narex stuff is a step up from what they sell elsewhere. I'd get the 1/2" bevel edge chisel and the 1/4" mortise chisel. Once you can splurge you can step up to ray isles mortise chisels or the pm-v11 veritas ones, but no need to start there. You don't need a full set. Repeat: you don't need to buy a full set of chisels. A 1/4" , 1/2" , and 1-1/4" are the only bench chisels I've used in quite some time. What's your current drill situation? Also the lv dovetail saw is the best bang for the buck available. Their whole backsaw line is.
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Oct 4, 2016 04:09
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I used the Narex mortise chisels on my bench stool project. They're okay I guess. The geometry is slightly off on the blades and they took a lot of work to hone, but that might be a factor of my lack of skill instead of the tool. Edit: wanted to share some photos. Sorry they're huge! Posting from my phone.  This is the frame. Pretty simple, just a ton of mortise and tenon joints. The legs are 32" stud-grade pine 1.5" by 1.5" and planed mostly square. The cross braces are all 3/4". It's not really square and some of the joints are loose. I guess my measuring and cutting was pretty sloppy. Next up I'm going to shape and figure all of the bits so it looks lighter and more elegant, chop the ends off and plane the top flat, and carve the seat. If you want I'll take some detail shots of my joinery tomorrow. Maybe you can give me some pointers? And as a bonus, here's my awesome workspace. The rack on the left is a carving table I built. The top lifts up to hold the work at an angle! 
Skippy Granola fucked around with this message at 05:48 on Oct 4, 2016 |
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Oct 4, 2016 05:28
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Skippy Granola posted:I used the Narex mortise chisels on my bench stool project. They're okay I guess. The geometry is slightly off on the blades and they took a lot of work to hone, but that might be a factor of my lack of skill instead of the tool. Uggh, no that's the tool. Thanks for letting me know, did you buy yours from Lee Valley? It may just be safer to start with the Ray Iles mortise chisel then.
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Oct 4, 2016 08:39
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Cannon_Fodder posted:Don't, it's an online comedy forum. If theres one thread where its a bad idea to try to get in to a Flame war... its this one...
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Oct 4, 2016 12:30
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The XKCD Larper posted:If theres one thread where its a bad idea to try to get in to a Flame war... its this one... How close are we to the moonshine thread? 
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Oct 4, 2016 13:00
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Bad Munki posted:
God drat, so envious of all that pristine work space.
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Oct 4, 2016 13:52
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Here's a quick video showing the table and how it moves / what is on it if anyone gives a poo poo  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lw5k5J4rNo4 I collect wierd pieces of metal from flea markets and other places and theyre acting as the tables counter balance. The XKCD Larper fucked around with this message at 16:38 on Oct 4, 2016 |
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Oct 4, 2016 14:01
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The XKCD Larper posted:Here's a quick video showing the table and how it moves / what is on it if anyone gives a poo poo video is private, change it to unlisted.
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Oct 4, 2016 14:05
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sidewalk gum posted:How close are we to the moonshine thread? 1/10th of the way to the Eve Online thread.
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Oct 4, 2016 14:06
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GEMorris posted:Uggh, no that's the tool. Thanks for letting me know, did you buy yours from Lee Valley? Yep, Lee Valley. I wanted to go with cheaper ones at first. Down the road I may get a Veritas 3/8" mortise chisel. Seems to be my most commonly used.
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Oct 4, 2016 15:46
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Gounads posted:video is private, change it to unlisted. Fixed it
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Oct 4, 2016 16:38
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I ordered one of these rasps last night since I can't find mine and it was a pile of rear end anyways. Hoping it will work well as I picked up one of those make your own pipe deals last week and would like to get it roughed out if not finished by the end of the week.
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Oct 4, 2016 16:41
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Parts Kit posted:I ordered one of these rasps last night The Fine Working guys are always talking about those on their podcast. One guy has one and the rest keep making fun of it. I'm curious what you think of it and I might buy one.
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Oct 4, 2016 16:58
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I don't really have anything good to compare it to, but I will post an impression of it after I've had some time to work on the pipe. The reviews of it on amazon were very positive so I figured it's a decent chance to take.
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Oct 4, 2016 17:05
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Guitar guys seem to love them for quickly roughing out a neck shape. I've been meaning to get one for a long time.
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Oct 4, 2016 17:09
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