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computer parts posted:You have made accusations that the Democratic Establishment intentionally keeps progressive candidates suppressed in order to cater to big business donors and their interests. You're going to have to prove that that's a lie (as opposed to him just being incorrect or whatever), or a vaguely-disguised misogynist statement.
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Oct 4, 2016 05:40
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Majorian posted:You're going to have to prove that that's a lie (as opposed to him just being incorrect or whatever) "Lie" in this context refers to a deliberately false statement spread by someone and repeated by others. He doesn't have to believe it's a lie in order for it to be one. Like the recent statement about Hillary calling Bernie supporters losers who live in their parents' basement - someone took it out of context in order to spread it to uninformed people.
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Oct 4, 2016 05:41
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Majorian posted:"Fury Road," motherafuckaaaaa Isn't it kind of a rape-and-revenge trope though? The captive wives, Furiosa herself, etc.
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Oct 4, 2016 05:44
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computer parts posted:"Lie" in this context refers to a deliberately false statement spread by someone and repeated by others. He doesn't have to believe it's a lie in order for it to be one. I mean, it seems to me that a lot of people really, genuinely believe that the deck is stacked against progressive Democrats. I'm not sure that anyone is specifically "lying" about any of it. They could be wrong, that's a reasonable thing to assert. There could be some hyperbole in their argument. But it strikes me as unfair of you to immediately leap to, "You're either lying or are making a misogynist argument." woke wedding drone posted:Isn't it kind of a rape-and-revenge trope though? The captive wives, Furiosa herself, etc. The captive wives, certainly, but I was focusing mainly on Furiosa. I may be misremembering, but I don't think there's any indication that she's been raped in the movie. It would be fair to assume that she probably has been, given the War Boys' "society," but I don't think it's an explicit part of her personal motivation. Oooh, I thought of another one, btw: Clarice Starling. The fact that I have to think so hard to come up with examples is telling though. Majorian fucked around with this message at 05:58 on Oct 4, 2016 |
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Oct 4, 2016 05:51
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Majorian posted:(but, of course, that opens the can of worms about whether Furiosa is a feminist character, or just a female character who's acting like a dude) Why can't a female "act like a dude" ?
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Oct 4, 2016 06:04
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Mel Mudkiper posted:I am a firm believer in once its election season, find the best choice and help them win. Once they win, they are the enemy until they are up for re-election again. I've seen where feet dragging about the candidate not being "good enough" leads. It leads to the other guy winning and things being objectively worse. this is hilarious because it's "we can try to go left next time, but this time we have to vote against the greater evil" which you idiots have been saying every single election since your country was founded. you're stuck in a loving time loop and it's by choice, you morons. do something else
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Oct 4, 2016 06:08
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Ixnay on the Omelet posted:Why can't a female "act like a dude" ? She can, it's just a question of whether or not it creates the expectation that women need to act like men in order to succeed in "a man's world," etc etc. I don't really buy the argument, but it's a valid debate IMO. HorseLord posted:this is hilarious because it's "we can try to go left next time, but this time we have to vote against the greater evil" which you idiots have been saying every single election since your country was founded. you're stuck in a loving time loop and it's by choice, you morons. do something else Glass houses, tankie.
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Oct 4, 2016 06:10
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HorseLord posted:do something else voting stein now, gj
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Oct 4, 2016 06:26
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Majorian posted:The captive wives, certainly, but I was focusing mainly on Furiosa. I may be misremembering, but I don't think there's any indication that she's been raped in the movie. It would be fair to assume that she probably has been, given the War Boys' "society," but I don't think it's an explicit part of her personal motivation. I got the impression she was intended for a similar fate as the wives, then she either aged out or proved herself in combat and ended up on a different path. There's also the Vuvalini who are a great example of bucking the stereotype.
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Oct 4, 2016 06:29
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HorseLord posted:have you ever considered that "most qualified and well-connected" in the contest of american imperial politics is actually terrifying rather than appealing This reminds me, actually. Women generally ascend to power if either or both conditions are established: a. there is some sort of a crisis in the organisation (cf. Theresa May after the Brexit), and b. they are related to a previous male leader (widow, wife, daughter...). The latter, when it applies, is because they can repurpose the personal networks of the male leader for themselves. If not Clinton, then the first woman president would, therefore, have still most certainly been a Clinton-type insider. In a way, best to clean that hurdle now and get it over with. Well, unless you believe some enterprising lady would have done an Obama and gotten another powerful clan behind her. Like Obama did with the Kennedys.
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Oct 4, 2016 07:05
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woke wedding drone posted:I got the impression she was intended for a similar fate as the wives, then she either aged out or proved herself in combat and ended up on a different path. There's also the Vuvalini who are a great example of bucking the stereotype. That's definitely possible - I hadn't considered that. Still, since the movie doesn't explicitly say that, and it's clear that she's mostly gotten to where she is in life through sheer grit and determination, I don't include her under the "rape and revenge" umbrella. I do admit it's not completely cut-and-dry though. Majorian fucked around with this message at 07:48 on Oct 4, 2016 |
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Oct 4, 2016 07:22
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I guess the question is why Clinton is being taken to task on her crap more than other candidates have been? All the poo poo she did was under Obama's watch, but by and large he still had favorable (if markedly less enthused) feelings from the left in 2012. It's not like this Clinton is the first democratic candidate to have done questionable poo poo. And no, I'm not implying misogyny. Is this just the far-left in the US reaching its limit or is charisma just that much of a factor in how politician are perceived?
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Oct 4, 2016 08:42
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meristem posted:Nope. This would be dumb. Politics is based on personal connections, so this just means that she's qualified to do her job. So is everyone who sided with Obama over Hillary in 2008 an The reductive nature of this argument is what bothers me here, as is the usual watering down of slurs. Trump saying Hillary started the birther movement is an inflammatory lie. Bernie saying that Hillary may be compromised on financial issues because she takes a fuckton of money from banks is just, like, basic logic. Equalizing both of these as "lies" just waters down the word, encourages people to think that the only "truth" is in whatever political movement they have arbitrarily declared allegiance to, and further cements the abhorrent polarization that's turned our politics to poo poo in the first place. Oddly enough though I still find that preferable to this dumb film theory derail where our degree of feminist enlightenment is measured by a bunch of subjective film interpretations that have pretty much nothing to do with Hillary. If you really want to talk about feminism in mainstream film, Cinema Discusso strikes me as a vastly more appropriate context. edit: I think disenchantment with Obama is what's inspiring so much antipathy with Hillary. She is, for all intents and purposes, acting as his proxy successor. That has to have way more to do with this than her being a woman. Remember that Republicans tried attacking Obama for Benghazi back in 2012, and with Hillary now it's just transitive property. Some Guy TT fucked around with this message at 08:46 on Oct 4, 2016 |
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Oct 4, 2016 08:43
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McAlister posted:Ambition is not tolerated in women in our society. parks and recreation isnt a film but that
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Oct 4, 2016 09:24
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rum sodomy Rainbow Dash posted:I guess the question is why Clinton is being taken to task on her crap more than other candidates have been? All the poo poo she did was under Obama's watch, but by and large he still had favorable (if markedly less enthused) feelings from the left in 2012. It's not like this Clinton is the first democratic candidate to have done questionable poo poo. And no, I'm not implying misogyny. Is this just the far-left in the US reaching its limit or is charisma just that much of a factor in how politician are perceived? Hillary has a much longer record of crap than Obama did (none), plus the far-left decided to make 2016 a rebellion on general principle and to lay the complete package of grievances they've had with neoliberalism over the past 35 years on her. As for why 2016 I don't think there's a simple answer, the causes of phenomena like that are a lot more complicated. And then as for the mass of squishy vaguely left-liberal moderates who form the bulk of the party her lack of charisma is a major factor, plus the double effect of Republicans attacking her and the left boycotting her, none of which really Obama had to deal with. I think the refusal of the left to cooperate has actually hurt enthusiasm for her in the base by a lot edit: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/10/02/despite-donald-trump-many-bernie-sanders-supporters-won-t-forgive-hillary-clinton.html icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 11:38 on Oct 4, 2016 |
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Oct 4, 2016 10:21
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HorseLord posted:this is hilarious because it's "we can try to go left next time, but this time we have to vote against the greater evil" which you idiots have been saying every single election since your country was founded. you're stuck in a loving time loop and it's by choice, you morons. do something else Yeah and look at the results. The United States is doing so terribly.
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Oct 4, 2016 13:28
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icantfindaname posted:Hillary has a much longer record of crap than Obama did (none), plus the far-left decided to make 2016 a rebellion on general principle and to lay the complete package of grievances they've had with neoliberalism over the past 35 years on her. As for why 2016 I don't think there's a simple answer, the causes of phenomena like that are a lot more complicated. And then as for the mass of squishy vaguely left-liberal moderates who form the bulk of the party her lack of charisma is a major factor, plus the double effect of Republicans attacking her and the left boycotting her, none of which really Obama had to deal with. I think the refusal of the left to cooperate has actually hurt enthusiasm for her in the base by a lot Obama frequently had attacks from the left. And The Daily Beast is a joke. A lot of Bernie's supporters are voting for her.
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Oct 4, 2016 13:44
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meristem posted:Nope. This would be dumb. Politics is based on personal connections, so this just means that she's qualified to do her job. Her job is bad, idiot. her job is bad. the job she's trying to get now? also bad. you're literally praising her for being the best qualified psychopath international criminal
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Oct 4, 2016 13:45
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I look forward to more sweet tears from The Daily Beast next time Corbyn wins agains one of their neoliberal darlings.
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Oct 4, 2016 13:48
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HorseLord posted:this is hilarious because it's "we can try to go left next time, but this time we have to vote against the greater evil" which you idiots have been saying every single election since your country was founded. you're stuck in a loving time loop and it's by choice, you morons. do something else we can't all start the revolution whining from our bedrooms bro
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Oct 4, 2016 13:52
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Mel Mudkiper posted:we can't all start the revolution whining from our bedrooms bro Karl Marx did
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Oct 4, 2016 13:53
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Mel Mudkiper posted:we can't all start the revolution whining from our bedrooms bro the offer to come to your country and do it for real is open, "bro", not my fault you're too pussy to take it. i accept paypal if you change your mind
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Oct 4, 2016 14:21
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workers of the world unite (to pay me a stipend)
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Oct 4, 2016 14:31
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HorseLord posted:the offer to come to your country and do it for real is open, "bro", not my fault you're too pussy to take it. i accept paypal if you change your mind I don't know if we've reached peak teenage edgelord yet, but by God it's not for lack of trying! 
sean10mm fucked around with this message at 14:33 on Oct 4, 2016 |
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Oct 4, 2016 14:31
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sean10mm posted:I don't know if we've reached peek teenage edgelord yet, but by God it's not for lack of trying! he got mad that i wouldn't personally hand in an american revolution on a plate, as if such a thing is possible. instead, i offered to come help work towards one in real life, if he's willing to help me with the barriers to doing so, namely being in a different country and being bankrupt. nothing edgelord about making a reasonable offer
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Oct 4, 2016 14:34
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Leftists don't like the Clintons because of NAFTA and welfare reform and the crime bill. Leftists don't like Hillary because she supported a fake war for votes, beat the war drums against Iran in 2008, supported a failed regime change in Libya, supported a coup in Honduras and is literally good friends with Henry Kissinger. Among other good reasons.
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Oct 4, 2016 14:42
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Those are legitimate reasons to dislike Hilary, but that doesn't explain the insane hatred so many people have.HorseLord posted:he got mad that i wouldn't personally hand in an american revolution on a plate, as if such a thing is possible. instead, i offered to come help work towards one in real life, if he's willing to help me with the barriers to doing so, namely being in a different country and being bankrupt. nothing edgelord about making a reasonable offer I don't think anyone is mad at you, but you sure do talk a lot of poo poo about all the super hardcore radicalism you pretend to want to engage in. How many Che shirts do you own?
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Oct 4, 2016 14:55
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computer parts posted:It doesn't help when you repeat lies and vaguely disguised misogynist statements. Uranium Phoenix posted:Would you like to actually point to a concrete example, or would you rather do that thing you usually do where you get people to try and guess what your argument is? computer parts posted:You have made accusations that the Democratic Establishment intentionally keeps progressive candidates suppressed in order to cater to big business donors and their interests. Majorian posted:You're going to have to prove that that's a lie (as opposed to him just being incorrect or whatever), or a vaguely-disguised misogynist statement. computer parts posted:"Lie" in this context refers to a deliberately false statement spread by someone and repeated by others. He doesn't have to believe it's a lie in order for it to be one. If you're thinking that the Democractic party doesn't cater to businesses that donate to it or the money that funds it is a lie, you're utterly delusional. Uranium Phoenix fucked around with this message at 15:00 on Oct 4, 2016 |
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Oct 4, 2016 14:57
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Speaking as a member of the intelligence community here: There is huge resentment towards her kid-gloves treatment by the FBI regarding her mishandling of classified information. There are over a million people in this country with a security clearance, and the vast majority of them would have had their clearance revoked or brought up on serious charges had they done what Hillary and her staff did with their work email. Nobody likes seeing evidence of a double-standard.
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Oct 4, 2016 15:05
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Nevvy Z posted:I don't think anyone is mad at you, but you sure do talk a lot of poo poo about all the super hardcore radicalism you pretend to want to engage in. How many Che shirts do you own? Looks like I touched a nerve! And zero.
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Oct 4, 2016 15:08
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Y'all have completely gone off topic now. What the gently caress is it with whiny marxoteens wanting to make everything about them. As for why your average American inherently distrusts Clinton, while trusting her husband or Obama for doing the same drat things... I'm really finding it difficult to come up with anything other than culturally ingrained sexism, the yields of propaganda, or her just being a huge dork. I mean, she's clearly intelligent and seems to actually care about your average American, but she just cannot stop herself from just spontaneously sounding like a huge doofus. "I call it, Trumped. Up. Trickle down economics.". Really? C'mon. Just... c'mon.
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Oct 4, 2016 15:12
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Americans still lust for wedgies.
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Oct 4, 2016 15:15
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Kristov posted:As for why your average American inherently distrusts Clinton, while trusting her husband or Obama for doing the same drat things... I'm really finding it difficult to come up with anything other than culturally ingrained sexism, the yields of propaganda, or her just being a huge dork. I don't really know anyone who distrusts Hillary but trusts Bill or Obama. I don't think it's a very large demographic. They all have the same fundamental political views.
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Oct 4, 2016 15:23
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Trump is clearly the candidate who would have been giving wedgies. This election is just a proxy battle between Big Wedgie and the Underwear Rights Coalition.
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Oct 4, 2016 15:25
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Nevvy Z posted:Those are legitimate reasons to dislike Hilary, but that doesn't explain the insane hatred so many people have. So you're allowed to dislike Hillary now, but only to a degree considered reasonable by internet forum poster Nevvy Z? It's an improvement on people saying straight up there's no legitimate criticisms of her at all, I suppose Kristov posted:Y'all have completely gone off topic now. What the gently caress is it with whiny marxoteens wanting to make everything about them. This is no country for dorks seeking high office
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Oct 4, 2016 15:28
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Uranium Phoenix posted:I don't really know anyone who distrusts Hillary but trusts Bill or Obama. I don't think it's a very large demographic. They all have the same fundamental political views. That demographic is pretty much "everyone who doesn't vote straight ticket republican" subtracted by "everyone who isn't already in the bag for Hillary". So I dunno, probably 10 - 20 percent of the eligible voter population on any given day. That's a pretty sizable chunk.
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Oct 4, 2016 15:29
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Uranium Phoenix posted:You still haven't actually bothered to point to a concrete example, Bernie is a rarity. Most of the time, there is no progressive primary challenger, or--as we can see with Bernie/Hilary--the Democratic party puts barriers in front of those candidates and strongly backs incumbents or more moderate/conservative candidates. This makes it an uphill fight for populist, left-leaning candidates, and so the Democrats shouldn't be surprised that after decades of suppressing the left side of their party, the party is more right-wing, and left-leaning voters don't like it. In case you can't tell, this is a direct quote of you literally saying the Democratic Establishment conspires to suppress Progressives. computer parts fucked around with this message at 15:41 on Oct 4, 2016 |
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Oct 4, 2016 15:34
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What you also have to keep in mind that is that about 1/9 of this country is just... bug-fuckingly, pants-on-head crazy.
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Oct 4, 2016 15:35
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ltugo posted:Speaking as a member of the intelligence community here: rum sodomy Rainbow Dash posted:I guess the question is why Clinton is being taken to task on her crap more than other candidates have been? All the poo poo she did was under Obama's watch, but by and large he still had favorable (if markedly less enthused) feelings from the left in 2012. It's not like this Clinton is the first democratic candidate to have done questionable poo poo. And no, I'm not implying misogyny. Is this just the far-left in the US reaching its limit or is charisma just that much of a factor in how politician are perceived? A lot of people have this cynical take on on politics, that most people are dumb and don't care about the issues - that's not really true, even if you can get people to say they believe almost anything, if you carefully word the question. What attracts people isn't dry policy proposals of this or that %, even if such details are the meat of any policy. What gets people are involved are broader themes, a sense of belonging and of purpose. The goal of any political movement, if it should be successful, is to provide that purpose, meaning and belonging to people's lives, while also delivering positive, material change to people's lives, to reinforce all those other (just as important) qualities I listed. Clinton tries to do that, but the only thing she's emphasized is that she'll be the first woman president, "I'm With Her". That's it. Obama didn't campaign on being the first black president, even if that was part of his appeal. What he campaigned on was "Hope and Change", that his presidency would not just be the first black presidency, but that him being the first black president would itself be a part of broad, positive shift in America as a whole. And it's basically for that reason, that he didn't really get much flak, even if overall, his presidency, while having a fair number of landmarks, represents a set of incremental improvements.
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Oct 4, 2016 15:42
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ltugo posted:Speaking as a member of the intelligence community i know job-role obscuring euphemisms are popular but why do you say "intelligence community" unironically. why not just say you work for a spy agency. that's what it is. you're not a janitor, you don't need to hide behind calling yourself a "deputy hygiene manager" are you a floor sweeper or security guard in an NSA datacenter or something
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Oct 4, 2016 15:43
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