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Man I missed something - how did luke get the thumb drive? did Jessica give it to him after taking it from purple man in a scene I don't remember ?
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Oct 4, 2016 15:21
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I think she stole it from him and gave it back? That he always had it because it was Reva's but he gave it to Jess for a bit so she could see what happened to her/PM? I can't really remember
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Oct 4, 2016 15:32
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Party Plane Jones posted:Were we watching the same show? Outside of Episode 7 I thought Mariah's acting was pretty meh all around. I'm just going to let Alfre Woodard's record speak for itself: "Alfre Woodard (born November 8, 1952) is an American film, stage, and television actress, producer, and political activist. Woodard has been named one of the most versatile and accomplished actors of her generation.[1] She has been nominated once for an Academy Award and Grammy Award, 18 times for an Emmy Award (winning four), and has also won a Golden Globe Award and three Screen Actors Guild Awards."
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Oct 4, 2016 15:43
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Parkingtigers posted:I'm just going to let Alfre Woodard's record speak for itself: Good actors and actresses can still put in poor performances, particularly if poorly directed 
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Oct 4, 2016 16:25
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A lot of people didn't like this, but I liked Luke and Diamondback being brothers. The hypocrisy of a preacher is something that resonates with a lot of people, and it seems that Luke's hometown was a small town where everyone went to church and thus knew everything about everyone's business. It points to the biggest theme of the show, which is that the truth needs to be naked and visible to everyone, not covered up in order to preserve the status quo. Maybe I'm in the minority, but the relationship between Luke and Diamondback makes sense when you look at it as Diamondback resents Luke because he stole his birthright from him by being a legitimate child rather than a bastard
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Oct 4, 2016 16:28
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Oh Snapple! posted:Good actors and actresses can still put in poor performances, particularly if poorly directed Her performance was great though. She served so many emotions and when Mariah was plotting or scared or disturbed, she didn't need dialogue. It showed in her face and her body language. She even pulled off the I'm lying and you know I'm lying scene spectacularly. That's like the definition of great acting. As a screenwriter, and especially as a black women who writes and works in film, I would cut off my loving foot to work with Alfre Woodard. She is that good.
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Oct 4, 2016 16:36
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Koalas March posted:Her performance was great though. She served so many emotions and when Mariah was plotting or scared or disturbed, she didn't need dialogue. It showed in her face and her body language. She even pulled off the I'm lying and you know I'm lying scene spectacularly. That's like the definition of great acting. As a screenwriter, and especially as a black women who writes and works in film, I would cut off my loving foot to work with Alfre Woodard. She is that good. She teetered back and forth between great and kind embarrassing to me 
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Oct 4, 2016 16:37
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Alfre Woodard is a treasure of epic proportions.
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Oct 4, 2016 17:04
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I hope they quit making Luke say sweet Christmas and crap I'm sure he said it in the comics but its awkward as poo poo and he says it a lot.
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Oct 4, 2016 17:16
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Invalid Validation posted:I hope they quit making Luke say sweet Christmas and crap I'm sure he said it in the comics but its awkward as poo poo and he says it a lot. Heresy.
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Oct 4, 2016 17:17
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Maybe he just doesn't commit to it enough, I need more readings.
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Oct 4, 2016 17:19
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Invalid Validation posted:I hope they quit making Luke say sweet Christmas and crap I'm sure he said it in the comics but its awkward as poo poo and he says it a lot. Comic fans would riot if Luke Cage didn't say "Sweet Christmas."
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Oct 4, 2016 17:20
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I feel like Mike Colter has come so far. He was godawful in that limp Halo movie thing, and in Jessica Jones he got the short end of the character development stick. But in Luke Cage he was pitch perfect as Power Man. Not in the vein of the original character, but an updated, modern version. Loved watching him work.
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Oct 4, 2016 17:22
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bloodychill posted:At the center of JJ, we have two characters - Jessica Jones, a super-powered rape victim, and Kilgrave, a super-powered rapist. It's important to acknowledge that Kilgrave is more than a literal rapist - his ability completely takes other's control and self-determination away from them, so it's essentially an extension of the effects of rape. In his presence, other's agency is nothing. In a lot of ways also, he comes across very much as a manchild. He is complains that he is misunderstood, his parents were poo poo at raising him, his universe begins and ends with his well-being and his desires and no woman (or man for that matter) can stop him. He's the epitome of white male privilege that way. Everyone must understand him, everyone must sympathize with him. The one time he does good, he deserves recognition for it. To further this equivocation between a powerful rapist and Kilgrave, everyone rushes to his defense, denies that what he does his real, and most importantly denies the experiences of his victims. Depicting "white male privilege" as a rootless, invisible serial killer is one of the dumber creative decisions I've come across. e: I mean hell, Kilgrave is even explicitly a foreigner. One of the reasons rape and abuse is downplayed or ignored is that exposing and prosecuting them would upset communities and local institutions - the case of Jerry Sandusky, for example. The comics treat Kilgrave as a shallowly-characterised, over-the-top nightmare figure. Trying to characterise him too much as the show does strikes me as the root of the problem. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 17:46 on Oct 4, 2016 |
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Oct 4, 2016 17:29
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Eh, whatever
Arist fucked around with this message at 17:36 on Oct 4, 2016 |
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Oct 4, 2016 17:32
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Jessica Jones is very obviously a feminist show. It's just disappointing that in so many other respects it isn't a very good one. At all. Luke Cage is basically the socially conscious show JJ tries to be while being much more complete, and whose failures (like the Judas bullets, a dumb addition that shouldn't have been added since it invalidates Luke Cage's entire superpowered gimmick) are less paralyzing than JJ's whole "We don't complete anyone besides JJ and Kilgrave's arcs, we took one arc of the comic and spun out an entire season from it and clearly just ran the gently caress out of material, everything about the Trish/Simpson romance was terrible and it went nowhere, the entire season is built on a complete and utter character assassination of Jeri's base competence, the Hope plot never really goes anywhere and ends totally abruptly, literally everything about Robyn is the absolute loving worst poo poo ever, some of the dialog is very very very bad, the show is often a total tonal bummer because it's so endlessly and miserably about Rape Culture and often feels like homework".
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Oct 4, 2016 17:37
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Maybe it's just post-feminist.
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Oct 4, 2016 17:42
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Lick! The! Whisk! posted:Jessica Jones is very obviously a feminist show. It's just disappointing that in so many other respects it isn't a very good one. At all. I liked all those things about it and disagree that things were bad or dialog was the worst ever
bloodychill fucked around with this message at 17:49 on Oct 4, 2016 |
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Oct 4, 2016 17:46
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actually its good Like, I don't really know where to begin here. LC just doesn't work in a lot of ways. The show is a lot, a lot, worse plotted than JJ. It's a slow-rear end show, and not in a terribly rewarding way. Not much really actually loving happens, I don't think its broader, more relevant themes are terribly well developed (whereas in JJ they're inextricable). Character motivations are notably clumsy and inconsistent. Luke Cage is honestly kind of a boring show. Entire scenes are barely saved by the music cues. The show doesn't really go anywhere. This more than any other of the Marvel shows feels like a failure to tell a complete story through episodes. And I still liked it. BravestOfTheLamps posted:Maybe it's just post-feminist. Go away.
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Oct 4, 2016 17:47
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The Jeri poo poo in JJ is loving indefensible, and considering she was probably the best character on JJ it's pretty loving damning. Like seriously, what an awful awful AWFUL episode of television 110 of JJ was, on every level. Robyn's just about as bad considering she's a comic relief character on a show that tonally can't accommodate comic relief characters who the show then expects you to sympathize with while simultaneously being the worst and dumbest motherfucker ever. Not as bad as how the show treats Jeri, but Robyn's really horrible and never works.
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Oct 4, 2016 17:50
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Am I the only one who got tired of the fight theme a few episodes in?
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Oct 4, 2016 17:51
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MrAristocrates posted:Go away. It actually sums up JJ's oddities pretty well. The show obviously takes the equality and power of women for granted, so patriarchy/male privilege is treated as a ghost from the past that needs to be exorcised. That the showrunners haven't really embraced feminist principles explains why they include so much exploitative violence. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 18:04 on Oct 4, 2016 |
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Oct 4, 2016 17:57
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MrAristocrates posted:actually its good Things the plot of JJ does: 1) gives Jeri inexplicable and actively contradictory motivations so Kilgrave can escape because she wants a divorce just that badly, except that's predicated on her actually buying that Kilgrave can hypnotize people even though she says she doesn't believe it 2) Robyn is somehow able to motivate two dudes to attack JJ, who somehow completely incapacitate her despite her being superpowered leading to her being knocked unconscious by a 2x4 quote:It's a slow-rear end show, and not in a terribly rewarding way. Not much really actually loving happens Both of those things directly apply to JJ. After episode 7 the show just fucks around until 12, most notably in episodes 10 and 11 where everyone turns into an idiot so Kilgrave is in a position of power quote:I don't think its broader, more relevant themes are terribly well developed (whereas in JJ they're inextricable). What are you talking about, it's an incredibly and aggressively black show. Like 90% of its main cast are black, it deals with black themes basically every single moment and beat of the show. quote:Character motivations are notably clumsy and inconsistent. Outside of JJ and Kilgrave literally everyone in JJ either has an incomplete character arc (Jeri, Hope, Trish, Simpson), is inconsistently implemented in the show (Malcolm, Jeri), is outright just terribly written top-to-bottom (Robyn), or has their character assassinated entirely so Kilgrave can win/escape (Jeri, Robyn) quote:The show doesn't really go anywhere. This more than any other of the Marvel shows feels like a failure to tell a complete story through episodes. And I still liked it. It's a show about Luke Cage embracing his responsibility. If anything it's the Spider-Man story just viewed through a black lens and starring an adult black man. It has an incredibly simplistic, incredibly complete story. I agree JJ tells a complete story, but that's all it does - virtually its entire supporting cast is given short shrift, the focus falls away to solely be about JJ and Kilgrave, and if it weren't for its strong concluding two episodes JJ's entire back half would've been entirely disposable. And that's even caveating that the JJ/Kilgrave Stepford Wives episode is probably the strongest of the season. JJ is paralyzed by its identity problem of only really caring about JJ and Kilgrave, everything else gets jettisoned or trashed to accommodate that narrative, which is a really poor way to plot a story. Worse still, such merciless disposal of characters makes them feel entirely superfluous (because they are), so JJ's entire supporting cast is impossible to really invest in. The show just does not care about anyone not named Jessica Jones or Kilgrave in JJ, and is willing to bend or break anyone and anything around it to service those two. In direct contrast the Misty Knight/Claire Temple/Diamondback/Mariah/Cottonmouth stuff was all really good and coherent, and it all ended well. Well, except the Cottonmouth death, but that's largely due to some really bad acting during his specific death scene. It was a smart story decision to make. NieR Occomata fucked around with this message at 18:05 on Oct 4, 2016 |
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Oct 4, 2016 18:02
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oh god you did the thing where you separate the entire thing into a billion quotes to dissect individually When I say it doesn't develop its themes, I'm saying it by-and-large doesn't dramatize them. Having a majority black cast doesn't make the show's points for it. I was also trying to talk about Luke Cage, not Jessica Jones, which is why my answer to most of those points is going to be a simple "I disagree."
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Oct 4, 2016 18:05
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Lick! The! Whisk! posted:The Jeri poo poo in JJ is loving indefensible, and considering she was probably the best character on JJ it's pretty loving damning. Like seriously, what an awful awful AWFUL episode of television 110 of JJ was, on every level. Robyn's just about as bad considering she's a comic relief character on a show that tonally can't accommodate comic relief characters who the show then expects you to sympathize with while simultaneously being the worst and dumbest motherfucker ever. Not as bad as how the show treats Jeri, but Robyn's really horrible and never works. How is it indefensible? Jeri seeks to take the terrifying and destructive power that Kilgrave represents for herself because she is obsessed with power and because of Jessica's meddling and her own hubris, it all backfires terribly. Also, I never took Robyn for comic relief but instead the unending support. She's the sister who never doubts and is JJ's moral center when she can't be her own. In a story about a trauma victim, she's basically the victim's sponsor. I think you might be misreading here.
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Oct 4, 2016 18:07
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Lick! The! Whisk! posted:and whose failures (like the Judas bullets, a dumb addition that shouldn't have been added since it invalidates Luke Cage's entire superpowered gimmick) The Judas bullets thing was perfect because it led to them being sold to the police, which was a brilliant storyline because now Luke Cage was effectively no different than any other Black man in a hoodie in so far as the police could take him down with lethal force if they deemed necessary, which given the state of things in the U.S. seems like a fairly big deal. It humanized a superhuman in a manner that as a white person, while I understand the logistics of, I can never truly appreciate because I simply do not live in fear of being shot by police on a daily basis. There is nothing that you could do to someone like Superman or Captain America or whoever, that I could feel as empathetic about, as a black person must feel when Luke Cage has his superpower stripped from him by the system. Batman weaponizing kryptonite and using it against Superman is the same story, but it has gently caress all for emotional impact because I don't walk through the streets with a daily fear that Batman will appear out of nowhere, harass me because I fit his criminal profile and then shoot me with his kyrptonite bullet because he feels threatened. I can't speak for the whole black community but I'd guess there are probably, I don't know, two or three that feel that way.
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Oct 4, 2016 18:08
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Robyn is undeniably a complete rear end in a top hat but it's important to realize that she's suffering in her own way. I think the show makes her a bit too unlikable and it hurts the overall point though, even if I appreciate what they did.
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Oct 4, 2016 18:08
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bloodychill posted:How is it indefensible? Jeri seeks to take the terrifying and destructive power that Kilgrave represents for herself because she is obsessed with power and because of Jessica's meddling and her own hubris, it all backfires terribly. The show is predicated on the supposition that she believes JJ's assertions about Kilgrave, and if she does then she would be intelligent enough to know that breaking him out would only backfire on her. But then she says she never believed JJ's assertions about Kilgrave - meaning she's breaking out a murdering psychopath just because. Either interpretation makes no sense and actively makes her character into an idiot. Either his powers work, in which case cutting him loose is an actively bad idea, or they don't work, in which case cutting him loose doesn't solve anything and she's just let a murderer run through. There's no logic to her actions, and considering the entirety of the last four episodes uses her decision as its lynchpin for its endgame, is really damning. bloodychill posted:Also, I never took Robyn for comic relief but instead the unending support. She's the sister who never doubts and is JJ's moral center when she can't be her own. In a story about a trauma victim, she's basically the victim's sponsor. I think you might be misreading here. If that's the direction that JJ was going then it centrally failed. Robyn is never, at any point, the "moral center". Malcolm is very clearly and obviously meant to be the moral center of the show, Robyn's just a worthless rear end in a top hat whom they turn into an idiot so Kilgrave can escape. PaybackJack posted:The Judas bullets thing was perfect because it led to them being sold to the police, which was a brilliant storyline because now Luke Cage was effectively no different than any other Black man in a hoodie in so far as the police could take him down with lethal force if they deemed necessary, which given the state of things in the U.S. seems like a fairly big deal. It humanized a superhuman in a manner that as a white person, while I understand the logistics of, I can never truly appreciate because I simply do not live in fear of being shot by police on a daily basis. There is nothing that you could do to someone like Superman or Captain America or whoever, that I could feel as empathetic about, as a black person must feel when Luke Cage has his superpower stripped from him by the system. Batman weaponizing kryptonite and using it against Superman is the same story, but it has gently caress all for emotional impact because I don't walk through the streets with a daily fear that Batman will appear out of nowhere, harass me because I fit his criminal profile and then shoot me with his kyrptonite bullet because he feels threatened. I can't speak for the whole black community but I'd guess there are probably, I don't know, two or three that feel that way. I don't entirely disagree, but they essentially gave the black Superman a literal kryptonite bullet for no reason. Like, Superman was given kryptonite because, as a character, he was written as too strong and too powerful so they had to invent a weakness for him. Luke Cage has never had that problem - he's not immune to pain, he just has unbreakable skin. As Mariah even notes, he can drown, he can suffer from asphyxiation, his bones can break. He can suffer internal trauma - and it's arguably even worse for him, because nobody can perform surgery on him if he does. These are all things that have happened in the comics so he can still be deafeated without eliminating the one unique aspect of his super powers. Saying he has unbreakable skin, oh except there's a magic bullet that can pierce it, is just dumb over any one of the myriad ways that the comics have shown him in peril. Like, there was a famous crossover event where Luke Cage got blown up and was in a coma due to the internal bleeding as a result of the explosion. If the show went that route - of some crazy powerful rocket launcher that hosed up his insides - it accomplishes the same thing without going "magic bullet that can pierce unbreakable skin!" I think the method they went with the Judas bullets of giving them to the police almost validates the plot decision, but I still feel like it irrevocably crossed the line of respecting Luke Cage's powers to be worth it. It's like whenever Marvel shows someone breaking Captain America's shield - the imagery is nice, but it quickly becomes memetic and totally cheapens the iconography/powerset centrally associated with the character.
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Oct 4, 2016 18:21
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I do like that he's completely immune to pain on the show. Except when he isn't because lol consistencyalso being hit in the balls stuns him a bit but a car is no big deal
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Oct 4, 2016 18:25
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Lick! The! Whisk! posted:The show is predicated on the supposition that she believes JJ's assertions about Kilgrave, and if she does then she would be intelligent enough to know that breaking him out would only backfire on her. But then she says she never believed JJ's assertions about Kilgrave - meaning she's breaking out a murdering psychopath just because. Either interpretation makes no sense and actively makes her character into an idiot. Either his powers work, in which case cutting him loose is an actively bad idea, or they don't work, in which case cutting him loose doesn't solve anything and she's just let a murderer run through. There's no logic to her actions, and considering the entirety of the last four episodes uses her decision as its lynchpin for its endgame, is really damning. I think we're just going to have to disagree on how we view superheroes then. One reason I like Marvel more than DC is that to me the powers always like a secondary thing in Marvel. You mention Captain America's shield being broken and to me that's less a cheapening of Captain America's power because the true power of Captain America is his will and perseverance the shield is just the extension of his power, breaking the shield is symbolic because it represents the hubris of the villain in that they think by destroying the shield they're stripping Captain America of his power. Similarly in Luke Cage, even after he knew that the police had bullets which could hurt him, he still chose to run and oppose them. That's the message. Even if you take away what makes him special, the thing that makes him a hero is not that he can punch through walls and such, it's that he chooses to fight regardless of his situation. I can get why you might not like that and I'm not trying to invalidate your feelings on the issue because I think there's room for both kinds of comic book fans in the world. There's certainly plenty of people who love the fantasy aspect of a character doing unbelievable, impossible things and dislike when that gets grounded back to reality in favor of telling a more human story. It's something we might disagree about when talking about sci-fi as well. To me the best science fiction stories are the ones that more or less ignore the science and fantastical nature of the genre in order to tell a very human story, but I won't begrudge anyone who likes Star Wars because there were a ton of cool aliens in the Cantina and wanting to go learn about all of them.
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Oct 4, 2016 18:42
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I'm never quite sure what people mean when they say JJ just fucks around after episode 7. I can only think of the whole Will Simpson arc, which ties into the show's themes about abuse and masculinity really well. Simpson became obsessed with how Kilgrave turned him, manly soldier guy, into another victim. And when he fails to be the action hero that saves the girl on top of failing to acknowledge the abuse he went through, he becomes a monster. If I could change it though, I think the story would be improved by Simpson going nuts and accidentally letting Kilgrave escape from the prison while trying to kill him.
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Oct 4, 2016 19:04
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CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK posted:I do like that he's completely immune to pain on the show. Except when he isn't because lol consistencyalso being hit in the balls stuns him a bit but a car is no big deal I don't think it's that he's immune to pain so much as that since he's not actually getting damaged, there's no pain being inflicted in the first place. Or at least the pain is minimal enough that it doesn't really matter, like pinging an elastic band against your skin kind of hurts but isn't really going to affect you much in a fight.
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Oct 4, 2016 19:11
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MrAristocrates posted:Having a majority black cast doesn't make the show's points for it. Actually having a majority black cast is it's own statement when black people are severely underrepresented I'm television and film. Scandal was the first show to have a black female lead in almost 40 years. This show was created for us, full stop. The show unapologetically black. Each beat deals with a different issue. It resonated with me in a way a show hasn't in a long time.
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Oct 4, 2016 19:20
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Koalas March posted:Actually having a majority black cast is it's own statement when black people are severely underrepresented I'm television and film. Scandal was the first show to have a black female lead in almost 40 years. This show was created for us, full stop. Next up is Iron Fist which should be an equal leap forward for one of the other most underrepresented (positively) people in television and film, Asians.
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Oct 4, 2016 19:30
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Koalas March posted:This show was created for us, full stop. Somewhat doubtful the show peddles respectability politics as much as it does in order to appeal to (probably largely millennial) black viewers.
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Oct 4, 2016 19:31
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MrAristocrates posted:Robyn is undeniably a complete rear end in a top hat but it's important to realize that she's suffering in her own way. I think the show makes her a bit too unlikable and it hurts the overall point though, even if I appreciate what they did. I think that's my biggest criticism of JJ, yeah. Robyn is on full-tilt cringe the entire time and it makes her nearly impossible to watch, even when she has a point. My second biggest criticism is that JJ has a feel to it like the episode order was a bit larger than the plot could accommodate. MrAristocrates posted:When I say it doesn't develop its themes, I'm saying it by-and-large doesn't dramatize them. Having a majority black cast doesn't make the show's points for it. Just so I'm clear on what you're saying, could you expound a bit? I'd like clarification on the idea of having a theme without dramatizing it. Blackchamber posted:Next up is Iron Fist which should be an equal leap forward for one of the other most underrepresented (positively) people in television and film, Asians. They really should've cast Danny as Asian or Eurasian, at this point. It's going to feel like a big step backward after "Luke Cage."
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Oct 4, 2016 19:37
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Lick! The! Whisk! posted:The show is predicated on the supposition that she believes JJ's assertions about Kilgrave, and if she does then she would be intelligent enough to know that breaking him out would only backfire on her. But then she says she never believed JJ's assertions about Kilgrave - meaning she's breaking out a murdering psychopath just because. Either interpretation makes no sense and actively makes her character into an idiot. Either his powers work, in which case cutting him loose is an actively bad idea, or they don't work, in which case cutting him loose doesn't solve anything and she's just let a murderer run through. There's no logic to her actions, and considering the entirety of the last four episodes uses her decision as its lynchpin for its endgame, is really damning. You'll notice a motif in that show is that the characters don't make great decisions from time to time. Part of Jeri breaking out Kilgrave was this perverse fascination with whether JJ was telling the truth and (coming back to hubris) her belief that she could handle him even if he had that power because she'd be able to convince him to work for her. nerdman42 posted:I'm never quite sure what people mean when they say JJ just fucks around after episode 7. I can only think of the whole Will Simpson arc, which ties into the show's themes about abuse and masculinity really well. Simpson became obsessed with how Kilgrave turned him, manly soldier guy, into another victim. And when he fails to be the action hero that saves the girl on top of failing to acknowledge the abuse he went through, he becomes a monster. Agreed on both points. Also, I haven't read up on a lot of forums reaction to JJ so all the Robyn hate is new to me. bloodychill fucked around with this message at 19:41 on Oct 4, 2016 |
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Oct 4, 2016 19:38
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Koalas March posted:Actually having a majority black cast is it's own statement when black people are severely underrepresented I'm television and film. Scandal was the first show to have a black female lead in almost 40 years. This show was created for us, full stop. You have to be missing a qualifier there. Hour long, maybe? I can think of a few sitcoms.
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Oct 4, 2016 19:41
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Heh, Moesha.
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Oct 4, 2016 19:42
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nerdman42 posted:I'm never quite sure what people mean when they say JJ just fucks around after episode 7. I can only think of the whole Will Simpson arc, which ties into the show's themes about abuse and masculinity really well. Simpson became obsessed with how Kilgrave turned him, manly soldier guy, into another victim. And when he fails to be the action hero that saves the girl on top of failing to acknowledge the abuse he went through, he becomes a monster. JJ fucks around by spinning its wheels on the same plot point (zoinks, Kilgrave escaped again!) and having badly contrived characterization in order to justify bad plotting (zoinks, the normies turned on Jessica for ten seconds!) needed to stretch the run time. If they had lined up the events that actually moved the plot forward, like Hope dying, then the show would have finished in ten episodes. The contrived padding slowed the show to a crawl. bloodychill posted:Also, I haven't read up on a lot of forums reaction to JJ so all the Robyn hate is new to me. There hasn't been a lot of Robyn hate unless you count, what, one user? She's an annoying drag on the show but if you fast forward past her parts then the show improves immensely! HIJK fucked around with this message at 19:45 on Oct 4, 2016 |
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Oct 4, 2016 19:43
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