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Aphrodite posted:You have to be missing a qualifier there. Hour long, maybe? I can think of a few sitcoms. Yeah I should've specified, the first lead an a primetime drama. I cant remember if that's only the big networks or not. The link to the source is in my Misogynoir thread OP in D&D. Irregardless, my point is that we are underrepresented in media. I have more sources that I'd grab it but I'm phone posting from work. 😑
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Oct 4, 2016 19:44
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Koalas March posted:Actually having a majority black cast is it's own statement when black people are severely underrepresented I'm television and film. I'm not disagreeing, I just think it just needed to present its themes in a dramatic way. Wanderer posted:Just so I'm clear on what you're saying, could you expound a bit? I'd like clarification on the idea of having a theme without dramatizing it. To dramatize something is to play it for drama or to engage with it in a dramatic way. You can say a movie is about anything you want but if it doesn't actually present those themes properly then it's completely textureless bullshit. It's like arguing every superhero movie ever is secretly about fascism. I don't think Luke Cage really engaged with its themes to a level I was satisfied with, which is not to say it didn't do it at all.
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Oct 4, 2016 19:50
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Wanderer posted:They really should've cast Danny as Asian or Eurasian, at this point. It's going to feel like a big step backward after "Luke Cage." I mean they could've, but then they could've just made a Shang-Chi series instead. I know, I know, "Luke and Danny are Heroes for Hire!!!!!" but in this MCU, it doesn't look like Danny and Luke will even meet until Defenders. I still think casting an Asian as a martial artist wizard can present itself with some challenges, since that is a huge stereotype and also a media cliche at this point. Of course having The White Guy be the True Ninja Master presents itself with tis own challenges. Maybe Marvel was screwed either way.
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Oct 4, 2016 19:55
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Wanderer posted:They really should've cast Danny as Asian or Eurasian, at this point. It's going to feel like a big step backward after "Luke Cage." I agree that he should have been Eurasian because I think if the story of a child of immigrants returning to their home would work well in that context. At the same time though, there is be plenty of room for a tale about a white youth getting educated in respecting other cultures and societies. I highly doubt it's going to be a modern colonialist story, unless those are the villains and Iron Fist is simply there as a watcher. I think they're smart enough not to repeat Dances with Wolves/Avatar so I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt with a white protagonist.
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Oct 4, 2016 19:56
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Latino Iron Fist is the clear solution.
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Oct 4, 2016 19:57
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HIJK posted:JJ fucks around by spinning its wheels on the same plot point (zoinks, Kilgrave escaped again!) and having badly contrived characterization in order to justify bad plotting (zoinks, the normies turned on Jessica for ten seconds!) needed to stretch the run time. I wouldn't call the normies turning on Jessica contrived. She repeatedly ignores their plights and is blatantly using them for her own needs. After already being used by Kilgrave, its hard to blame them for being resentful. I will agree that JJ suffers from pacing issues that could be easily solved by switching some things around. A few more scenes of the normies expressing their frustration would definitely help.
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Oct 4, 2016 20:03
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We'll have to see what they actually do in Iron Fist since they caved to China big on Dr. Strange.
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Oct 4, 2016 20:06
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PaybackJack posted:I agree that he should have been Eurasian because I think if the story of a child of immigrants returning to their home would work well in that context. At the same time though, there is be plenty of room for a tale about a white youth getting educated in respecting other cultures and societies. I highly doubt it's going to be a modern colonialist story, unless those are the villains and Iron Fist is simply there as a watcher. I think they're smart enough not to repeat Dances with Wolves/Avatar so I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt with a white protagonist. I thought The Forbidden Kingdom, with Jet Li and Jackie Chan, was a decent example of how to do it well in this day and age. The white kid's just along for the ride; he's a Western audience's viewpoint character, rather than any sort of messianic/colonialist archetype. MrAristocrates posted:To dramatize something is to play it for drama or to engage with it in a dramatic way. You can say a movie is about anything you want but if it doesn't actually present those themes properly then it's completely textureless bullshit. It's like arguing every superhero movie ever is secretly about fascism. I don't think Luke Cage really engaged with its themes to a level I was satisfied with, which is not to say it didn't do it at all. Okay, yeah, you were and are being vague. I don't agree with you. For example, the system in "Luke Cage," despite characters' exhortations to one another to trust in it, is rigged as poo poo. Luke triumphs over his adversaries and proves his innocence, but still has to go back to jail; Misty does everything right, or at least understandably, but still gets outfoxed. Luke is made a symbol for Harlem in the last few episodes and ends the series being taken away in a police car. You could certainly argue that in this day and age, the show is aware that some of what it presents--Harlem itself; the majority-black cast--is thematically charged by itself simply by virtue of its presence, and the show may rely a bit heavily on that. Accusing it of not engaging with its own thematic structure, however, is inaccurate at best.
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Oct 4, 2016 20:07
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Oh Snapple! posted:Somewhat doubtful the show peddles respectability politics as much as it does in order to appeal to (probably largely millennial) black viewers. Nah, (i'm assuming here so I could be wrong) you are just probably seeing black people of differing generations/opinions and views talk to each other when they are just talking to each other. I have heard something close to the exact sentiment uttered by a barber at my barbershop when a teen said it to him. He doesn't peddle respectability politics, he knows whether the kid uses it or not nothing will change he just doesn't like to hear a word that he heard his entire life in a different context used so freely now. Respectability politics being pushed is more "If you don't say the N-Word, If you wear a suit, If you do *insert bullshit thing here*" You won't get shot by the police or You'll be "one of the good ones, yo'll get those white people's love and affection" or whatever trash they pushing. Dexo fucked around with this message at 20:13 on Oct 4, 2016 |
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Oct 4, 2016 20:08
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Wanderer posted:Okay, yeah, you were and are being vague. I don't agree with you. I'm phoneposting so I won't try to dig deep but I can't say I buy a lot of that. It just feels like a lot of stuff dumped out in a heap and a lot of it's contradictory. Misty doesn't do everything right; in fact, her mistrust of the system gets her witness killed. I think the role and presentation of the police force was really inconsistent and weird here, for at least one example.
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Oct 4, 2016 20:12
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nerdman42 posted:I wouldn't call the normies turning on Jessica contrived. She repeatedly ignores their plights and is blatantly using them for her own needs. After already being used by Kilgrave, its hard to blame them for being resentful. I don't disagree but the support group turning on her like that only lasted for what - one episode? The fact that the writers packed it in to such a short amount of time, when they could have made it a more developed subplot, made it feel really dumb and contrived, which contributes to the wheel spinning. Ultimately I think JJ's main weakness was that the writers focused on the bunch of miniscule details instead of using broader plots (like the normies frustration and growing anger) to make the points. Parts of JJ feel like someone plugged the plot into Save the Cat writing software and said "okay now we need to come up with something here." There's a lack of organic growth. In contrast, I feel like Luke Cage does a much better job fulfilling those promises. I'm still not finished yet but as a series, Luke Cage is pretty careful about setting things up and then fulfilling them, which is something JJ lacked. I like LC's slower pace too, it allows the characterization to flourish which is the real draw.
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Oct 4, 2016 20:14
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MrAristocrates posted:I'm phoneposting so I won't try to dig deep but I can't say I buy a lot of that. It just feels like a lot of stuff dumped out in a heap and a lot of it's contradictory. Misty doesn't do everything right; in fact, her mistrust of the system gets her witness killed. I think the role and presentation of the police force was really inconsistent and weird here, for at least one example. Like I said, it's at least understandable even if it isn't technically right. She has Scairfe's notebook and knows just how far Cottonmouth's hooks extended into the PD, plus she had two partners in a row betray her. Of course she's not going to just hand her witness over to the other cops, and it would have worked if Shades hadn't dipped her phone.
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Oct 4, 2016 20:15
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raditts posted:^^^^^^ Not sure how you got from "a young, possibly gay actor is playing a young straight character " to anyone loving anyone, but okay.
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Oct 4, 2016 20:19
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Aphrodite posted:We'll have to see what they actually do in Iron Fist since they caved to China big on Dr. Strange. What did it do to cave to China out of interest? Wanderer posted:Like I said, it's at least understandable even if it isn't technically right. She has Scairfe's notebook and knows just how far Cottonmouth's hooks extended into the PD, plus she had two partners in a row betray her. Of course she's not going to just hand her witness over to the other cops, and it would have worked if Shades hadn't dipped her phone. What other partner besides Scarfe betrayed her?
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Oct 4, 2016 20:20
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Dexo posted:Nah, (i'm assuming here so I could be wrong) you are just probably seeing black people of differing generations/opinions and views talk to each other when they are just talking to each other. I have heard something close to the exact sentiment uttered by a barber at my barbershop when a teen said it to him. He doesn't peddle respectability politics, he knows whether the kid uses it or not nothing will change he just doesn't like to hear a word that he heard his entire life in a different context used so freely now. I think that's fair. Pops says that as an old guy who grew up in a different time and Luke grew up in the south so they have a certain view on the word. Their disdain of it is never even indirectly connected to being "for show, for the white folks" but more personal.
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Oct 4, 2016 20:21
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Wanderer posted:Like I said, it's at least understandable even if it isn't technically right. She has Scairfe's notebook and knows just how far Cottonmouth's hooks extended into the PD, plus she had two partners in a row betray her. Of course she's not going to just hand her witness over to the other cops, and it would have worked if Shades hadn't dipped her phone. That's fine, but the way it's presented is really weird. Misty doesn't even bring any of that up, and it makes it seem like her boss is right.
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Oct 4, 2016 20:21
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They (reportedly) changed all the Tibet stuff.
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Oct 4, 2016 20:21
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HIJK posted:I don't disagree but the support group turning on her like that only lasted for what - one episode? The fact that the writers packed it in to such a short amount of time, when they could have made it a more developed subplot, made it feel really dumb and contrived, which contributes to the wheel spinning. I can get behind that. Jones is pointed, but definitely has pacing issues and loses focus on key story points. And so far, yeah, Cage's pace is consistent and doesn't seem to fall into the same kind of repetition.
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Oct 4, 2016 20:22
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nerdman42 posted:I can get behind that. Jones is pointed, but definitely has pacing issues and loses focus on key story points. And so far, yeah, Cage's pace is consistent and doesn't seem to fall into the same kind of repetition. I'd say Cage is a better paced show than JJ but JJ stays on theme better. Everything and every character is connected heavily to rape, abuse, and power politics in JJ whereas in Cage, it drifts from the the struggles of the black community in sections toward the end. Not nearly as badly as DD S2's back half, but it's still there.
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Oct 4, 2016 20:25
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Lick! The! Whisk! posted:"We don't complete anyone besides JJ and Kilgrave's arcs...everything about the Trish/Simpson romance was terrible and it went nowhere... I get what you're saying and agree that JJ can't sustain its episode order, but just because Trish isn't the protagonist doesn't mean she has no arc. Consider that she and Jessica have backgrounds rooted in their respective experiences of abuse. Jessica's reaction is avoidant and nihilistic, falling into alcoholism and isolation. Trish's reaction is proactive and confrontational...she empowers herself by learning martial arts, and is overtly invested in a therapeutic approach to trauma. The Trish/Simpson relationship *isn't* pointless because it's a concrete example of a burgeoning domestic abuse situation that Trish 1) identifies as such, and 2) actively dismantles. Compare flashback scenes where Patsy is being passively thrown around by her stagemom to the episode where Trish literally takes Simpson on and kicks the poo poo out of him. That's an arc. Simpson has one, too, believe it or not; it's just a tragic one. His experience with Kilgrave is destabilizing, and throws him into a downward spiral of violence and PTSD. The fear and self-doubt underpinning it drives him to fall back onto his military experience, and he chooses increasingly violent paths to "fix" the problem until he's been totally consumed by Dr. Kozlov's unit. Also an arc. I'm not saying you had to like it or that it's poetry or anything, but don't pretend it's not there. I refused to look at this thread until I was done with Luke Cage, but now I am. I definitely agree it has pacing problems...worse ones than Jessica Jones, I think. But damned if Mike Colter isn't charismatic as gently caress and perfectly cast. And I think the show did a tremendous job of making its social commentary overt without feeling gratuitous or artificial. They get a surprising amount of mileage out of a bullet-riddled hoodie, too, and imbue it with perfect symbolic weight. And the soundtrack is loving great. That said, I got way more of a "respectability politics" argument out of it than I was expecting. Like, a Cosby-ish degree of it at times...in a "pull up your pants and get a job / do right by your community" sense. It's not necessarily a problem, and definitely serves the "with great power" argument central to all of the Marvel Netflix shows, but it struck me regardless. On some level, though, the most fascinating aspect to this show for me was how black it was...or more, how white it *wasn't*. I was half-expecting it to go in this blaxploitation direction, where Luke punks a bunch of [white] outsiders preying on Harlem. In fact, white people don't matter *at all* in the scope of this story. And that was really cool. Literally, Scarfe is the only white character of even moderate plot relevance I can think of. Him and the doctor in Georgia, or the therapist Misty talks to, but that's pretty much it. This is a show that seemed to feel almost no pressure to cater to a white audience, and that's loving great. Xealot fucked around with this message at 20:37 on Oct 4, 2016 |
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Oct 4, 2016 20:32
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tsob posted:What other partner besides Scarfe betrayed her? Perez. Also, it's probably significant to note here that the lady who reads Misty the riot act about "trusting the system" is also the one who regards Mariah as her "soror," and who is practically vibrating with excitement at the prospect of letting Mariah entirely off the hook. MrAristocrates posted:That's fine, but the way it's presented is really weird. Misty doesn't even bring any of that up, and it makes it seem like her boss is right. Misty's grieving and furious simultaneously at the moment, and besides, she shouldn't have to in order for the audience to understand that motivation. Misty "went rogue" because she couldn't trust anyone, and rightly so. Wanderer fucked around with this message at 20:38 on Oct 4, 2016 |
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Oct 4, 2016 20:36
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I ain't trying to be that guy but can we establish if Toxx has even finished Jessica Jones at this point if he's going to continue debating it so much?
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Oct 4, 2016 20:39
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MrAristocrates posted:Luke Cage is honestly kind of a boring show. Entire scenes are barely saved by the music cues. I have to agree, this whole show is a guilty pleasure for me. I'm not going to retread the topic of themes, but i just feel like the villains are bland and corny. Whenever Stokes is on screen I feel like I'd rather be watching "Black Dynamite." At least it's ironically aware of it's silly blacksploitation style characters. I feel like Stokes' character is somewhere along the line of parody but can't commit to it. Any scene where "Shades" pops up, the show just becomes instantly cringe worthy for me. And somehow, I've still managed to bingewatch up to episode 7.
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Oct 4, 2016 20:47
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Do you guys think the show would've been better if they made Cottonmouth look more like he does in the comics?
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Oct 4, 2016 20:49
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Yes
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Oct 4, 2016 20:52
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They actually did make a toy to coincide with the release of the show, so if you want to support Luke Cage by buying merchandise, pick up a Cottonmouth action figure
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Oct 4, 2016 20:54
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That's a different Cottonmouth because comics.
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Oct 4, 2016 20:57
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Wanderer posted:Perez. She wasn't vibrating with excitement, she even said she didn't really like Mariah all that much after the hug. She also delayed Mariah from getting her phone call while Misty was finishing up elsewhere. Priscilla was the one who held back the cops until the last possible moments at the night club. She was also the one who pulled Misty back whenever she strayed too far out of line with her emotions. She released Mariah because who cares. If they find more evidence on her she's not going to be hard to find at all. She's a councilwoman, and Harlem lifer. She's not going anywhere. It also means less issues legally for illegally detaining someone that might bite them in the rear end later. She is the personification of the platonic ideal of "the system". She held back the cops until the last possible moment. and was able to all the hostages besides that one dude, and not fire a shot. She went where the evidence told her to go. But still allowed and gave Misty cover to follow her hunch and get more evidence, about what really happened without stopping her.
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Oct 4, 2016 21:02
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Yeah, I think when Iron Fist drops, I'm just gonna not read this thread.
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Oct 4, 2016 21:12
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Guy Goodbody posted:Do you guys think the show would've been better if they made Cottonmouth look more like he does in the comics? Sorta, but more if diamondback didn't look and act like an idiot. One of the things that bothers me about Luke Cage is tonal inconsistency of it. You have these well rounded characters acting as poc-in-America foils to Luke Cage, and then you have this 1 note, cartoonishly evil, over the top plotting of the main antagonist, which is just comicy as all get out. It doesn't jive for me.
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Oct 4, 2016 21:13
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I don't get all the love for Shades. Maybe its because I suffered through Sons of Anarchy, but I hated the character, especially his 'menacing' way of enunciating words super slowly with a dumbass smile, gently caress Juice
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Oct 4, 2016 21:14
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I thought Shades was a loving douche with a stupid name. I just finished the last episode. Sorry Marvel, but a Sharon Jones soundtrack is not enough to excuse that bullshit. I had the same issue with the back half of Luke Cage as I did with the back half of JJ and Daredevil S2, where they complete a first arc that's really good, then they take a pretty thin plot and stretch it over the rest of the series and patch up plot holes with a healthy dab of BECAUSE THE PLOT DEMANDS IT. I liked how the theme of the first half seemed to lean towards "You can't solve all of society's problems by punching and bodyslamming them away" but once magic not-kryptonite bullets entered the picture I knew things were going to take a turn. And yes, I know what metaphor they were going for there, but it just didn't feel like it worked beyond an extremely lazy source of conflict, made even lazier by that tired-rear end the cartoonishly evil bad guy is secretly my brother who resents me! soap opera type poo poo. Beyond that, it felt like the social themes from a Black America perspective seemed to kind of meander around, like they were afraid to make any specific point, so it just felt like a mess right up until that gently caress-you ending.
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Oct 4, 2016 21:29
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tsob posted:What other partner besides Scarfe betrayed her? The one the writers forgot about. lol Perez
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Oct 4, 2016 21:31
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Gareth Gobulcoque posted:Sorta, but more if diamondback didn't look and act like an idiot. One of the things that bothers me about Luke Cage is tonal inconsistency of it. You have these well rounded characters acting as poc-in-America foils to Luke Cage, and then you have this 1 note, cartoonishly evil, over the top plotting of the main antagonist, which is just comicy as all get out. It doesn't jive for me. It's ok if you didn't like Diamondback but complaining that he or other characters were too comicy in a series based on a comic book? When did this become a thing?
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Oct 4, 2016 21:32
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I don't care that diamondback was comicy. If you want to go full comics then I'm totally down for that. I'd also be for a character driven issues show. I think Luke Cage does both and does them both without a tremendous amount of success though it does the latter better than the former. It's the juxtaposition of the two elements that especially doesn't work for me.
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Oct 4, 2016 21:39
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Wanderer posted:Perez. Perez wasn't her partner was he? I thought he just worked with her for a short stint and that that other white guy she chastised for interrupting her interrogation of Mariah in the finale was her new partner? His name escapes me currently. Also, Misty's new boss didn't seem excited to let Mariah go to me. If anything she seemed frustrated at Misty for blowing the case and disappointed, since while she was reluctant to bring her in, she seemed happy to do it so long as they had the right evidence.
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Oct 4, 2016 21:42
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tsob posted:Perez wasn't her partner was he? I thought he just worked with her for a short stint and that that other white guy she chastised for interrupting her interrogation of Mariah in the finale was her new partner? His name escapes me currently. Also, Misty's new boss didn't seem excited to let Mariah go to me. If anything she seemed frustrated at Misty for blowing the case and disappointed, since while she was reluctant to bring her in, she seemed happy to do it so long as they had the right evidence. Perez was who she was working with temporarily to find out what happened to Scarves or whatever his name was. She trapped him up.
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Oct 4, 2016 21:43
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Speaking of Shades, why is nobody at the end concerned with the fact that a guy who is out on bail for assaulting and holding a police officer at gunpoint (and may be suspected of murder) never had to return for trial and can freely hang out with an elected official? Why was he allowed bail in the first place? I know the answer is PLOT DEMANDS IT but still. I just didn't like anything about the way things ended.AndyElusive posted:It's ok if you didn't like Diamondback but complaining that he or other characters were too comicy in a series based on a comic book? When did this become a thing? Just because they're based on a comic book doesn't mean they have to be cartoon characters. They're not wearing the goofy costumes, after all. It sticks out when it's half-way like that, if they want it to be cheesy and cartoony then they have to go full-retard or not at all.
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Oct 4, 2016 21:53
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raditts posted:Speaking of Shades, why is nobody at the end concerned with the fact that a guy who is out on bail for assaulting and holding a police officer at gunpoint (and may be suspected of murder) never had to return for trial and can freely hang out with an elected official? Why was he allowed bail in the first place? I know the answer is PLOT DEMANDS IT but still. I just didn't like anything about the way things ended. It's not like normal people know who Shades is just by looking at him. He doesn't have a bracelet for tracking so they wouldn't know where he was at. Misty already knows he's guilty as gently caress but she needs more info on Mariah so she's not going to push yet. Like sure he probably would have been denied bail, but once you ignore that part it makes enough sense.
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Oct 4, 2016 21:57
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I laughed really hard at Diamondback immediately yelling TAKE THOSE OFF when Zip appeared in a scene with sunglasses on
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Oct 4, 2016 21:58
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