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MiddleOne posted:So SD bureaucrats? I find the admiration for Putin among SD party members to be rather hilarious. Islamophobia in all its glory, but among the older conservative Swedish population I would say Russophobia is pretty strong. Especially considering all the old M voters among SD, who traditionally wants a strong military to ward off those pesky commies. Also, if one wants to see horseshoe theory in effect, it is kinda funny to see SD and V on the same side. Especially since V have a long history of getting payed by Russia.
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Sep 29, 2016 08:10
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evobatman posted:I was conscripted, but found unfit to serve due to my backne. The biggest payoff I've ever had for being a goon. One guy in the same unit had psoriasis so bad he did half his stint looking like the invisible man.
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Sep 29, 2016 08:18
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Jerry Cotton posted:General conscription is cool and good and makes guns not seem like fun to most people. Skytte är en skitbra hobby
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Sep 29, 2016 08:40
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Cardiac posted:I find the admiration for Putin among SD party members to be rather hilarious. The weird thing is that it's literally every populist-right party this year up and including a american presidential candidate. 
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Sep 29, 2016 08:50
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MiddleOne posted:The weird thing is that it's literally every populist-right party this year up and including a american presidential candidate. So first the populist-right came for the working class and the angry young men that used to be left, and now they come for the dictators that the left used to support. I wonder what is next, SD will suddenly start supporting Venezuela and Cuba? That would be kinda the ultimate political triangulation. Also, I wonder what dirt Kent Ekeroth has on Åkesson.
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Sep 29, 2016 08:57
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MiddleOne posted:The weird thing is that it's literally every populist-right party this year up and including a american presidential candidate.
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Sep 29, 2016 09:12
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Well, Russia is their main source of financing, so it's not really that strange. Plus they share a lot of goals, such as destroying or weakening the EU. Yeah that I understand, but why is the rank and file completely unphased by it?
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Sep 29, 2016 09:35
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MiddleOne posted:Yeah that I understand, but why is the rank and file completely unphased by it?
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Sep 29, 2016 09:41
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MiddleOne posted:Yeah that I understand, but why is the rank and file completely unphased by it? The "volunteer" soldier is at their heart a useful idiot and thus long for a strong Tzar to lead them to glory.
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Sep 29, 2016 10:22
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Well, Russia is their main source of financing, so it's not really that strange. Even for SD? Cause all of our parties are funded to like 90-95% by taxes (hear that C?). MiddleOne posted:Yeah that I understand, but why is the rank and file completely unphased by it? Probably cause that is a very minor side effect of voting for a populist-right party. The main reason for the success of the populist-right is immigration/integration issues and Russia is really not a concern in that regard, since that is something external and peripheral compared to the situation here and now.
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Sep 29, 2016 10:30
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Cardiac posted:Also, I wonder what dirt Kent Ekeroth has on Åkesson. Kent Ekeroth is such a disaster that he would have been sacked ten times in any normal party. It's amazing, but then, it's a party without deep pockets when it comes to finding replacements, as local level SD politicians have shown that they are either absent or trainwrecks. The party is extremely thinly spread when it comes to people with any real political experience, given that they got a ton of votes in places where they didn't have any candidates ready, so obviously unfit people have managed to get positions that they would have lost much quicker in more professional parties. And yeah, I don't find it strange that soft-core fascists in SD like thinly veiled fascist Putin. He's basically their ideal image of a leader, with a severely battered free press that is more or less replaced by RT (which SD just LOVE, as they run tons of articles on how EU has been destroyed by immigrants), an opposition that is either rooted out, exciled or too small to be effective, a nationalistic "Russia Stronk" propaganda, and a disregard to pesky things like human rights and international law. That's like heaven for a large part of the SD supporters that are not just uninformed protest voters. lilljonas fucked around with this message at 10:42 on Sep 29, 2016 |
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Sep 29, 2016 10:36
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Fader Movitz posted:Conscript every able young person, roll out the strv 103. Dags för https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9KONpw1qrQ
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Sep 29, 2016 10:48
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Putin hates LGBT. Ergo, Putin good. -the SD trainwreck of thought (I imagine).
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Sep 29, 2016 13:30
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lilljonas posted:Kent Ekeroth is such a disaster that he would have been sacked ten times in any normal party. It's amazing, but then, it's a party without deep pockets when it comes to finding replacements, as local level SD politicians have shown that they are either absent or trainwrecks. The party is extremely thinly spread when it comes to people with any real political experience, given that they got a ton of votes in places where they didn't have any candidates ready, so obviously unfit people have managed to get positions that they would have lost much quicker in more professional parties. The only thing that can remove Ekeroth at this point is a dead hooker and a bag of cocaine. Even then it's a "maybe" since it could be a "media conspiracy" or a "hate campaign" in their mindset.
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Sep 29, 2016 14:58
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BigglesSWE posted:Putin hates LGBT. Ergo, Putin good. -the SD trainwreck of thought (I imagine). Red Terror hasn't really been a thing for a while since West won the cold war. And Russia only attacks some tiny countries on the other side of the world anyway, so who cares. Whereas EU/immigrants/whatnot are perceived to be a real, local and current threat.
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Sep 30, 2016 00:24
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freelancemoth posted:The only thing that can remove Ekeroth at this point is a dead hooker and a bag of cocaine. Even then it's a "maybe" since it could be a "media conspiracy" or a "hate campaign" in their mindset. It's the same phenomenon as Trumps voters. They don't care about all the shady stuff he's done, because for various reasons they are voting for them because of the politics they say they stand for (and the dogwhistles)
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Sep 30, 2016 08:07
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McCloud posted:It's the same phenomenon as Trumps voters. They don't care about all the shady stuff he's done, because for various reasons they are voting for them because of the politics they say they stand for (and the dogwhistles) Which is kinda depressing, since this indicates that the voters are aware of the shady things but that there is no other political alternative to their most important political question. If one looks at the polling figures for last election, there is a big drop in uncertain voters and a corresponding increase for SD voters further indicating the hesitation many SD voters had. But hey, let us blame the voters and not the system, that is surely the way forward. As for SD, sooner or later they will have to face some form of political responsibility and given what has recently happened to MP, taking responsibility as a populist party is fraught with problems since your voters will per default be disappointed with you (unless you sit on a massively improving economy). There is a reason why DF in Denmark didn't want to sit in the ruling coalition.
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Sep 30, 2016 08:54
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What you are talking about now, is discussed in this lecture here, it's good stuff: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bkm2Vfj42FY
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Sep 30, 2016 08:57
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His Divine Shadow posted:What you are talking about now, is discussed in this lecture here, it's good stuff: Eh, Trump is a pretty late addition to the party and is only relevant since he is one of the contenders for the President of the US. The last 15-20 years we have had FN, FPÖ, DF, FrP, TrueFinns, SD, Geert Wilders, Front Nord, Ukip, Jobbik and more, which are all of the same style of party. I find it interesting how the left managed to lose this group of people, since the main recruiting ground is minor towns which have a tradition of voting social democratic. Edit: also not watching a 1.5 h long filmed lecture.
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Sep 30, 2016 09:25
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Cardiac posted:Eh, Trump is a pretty late addition to the party and is only relevant since he is one of the contenders for the President of the US. The Left are losing the working class vote since they are not the main target anymore. Most of the talking points, from the modern social democracy, is aimed at the middle class. Basically the difference between Corbyn supporters and Blairites.
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Oct 2, 2016 15:38
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freelancemoth posted:The Left are losing the working class vote since they are not the main target anymore. Most of the talking points, from the modern social democracy, is aimed at the middle class. Ok, so why doesn't for example V massively increase in polling numbers. The increase of 1-2% for V last year has more to do with MP than anything else. I would hardly call V for social democracy. So if your theory about third way social democracy is true there should be a fertile ground for socialist parties. But we are not seeing that. S have lost like 10% in polling numbers the last decade, and that loss have not been picked up by V.
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Oct 2, 2016 17:13
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Cardiac posted:Ok, so why doesn't for example V massively increase in polling numbers. Well we did have our Corbyn, it's just that unlike Corbyn he was not a unscrupulous saint so the internal rebellion actually worked. Also I'm not sure what 2014 results you are remembering. The results are here but I can summarize the parties who actually gained voters in 2014 for you because you're forgetting something: SD: +7.16% S: +0.35% V: +0.11% FI: +2.72% SD did make big gains but they did not do so in a vacuum, the left in Sweden gained 3.18% and most of that went out the window because of FI not making the 4% threshold, but that doesn't mean it's not there. I would argue that V did not increase because they're not the only alternative left party on the block anymore. We are seeing a push towards both alternative right and left in Sweden, and I'm relatively sure that we will see more of that in the next election.
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Oct 2, 2016 19:03
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Cardiac posted:Ok, so why doesn't for example V massively increase in polling numbers. Sorry I mean that the Social Democrats are not talking to the working class anymore. Vänsterpartiet could pick them up but they have a bad habit almost completely ignoring the countryside and focus soley on "urban issues". So the only real alternative for the working class, on the countryside, is Sd sadly. freelancemoth fucked around with this message at 19:41 on Oct 2, 2016 |
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Oct 2, 2016 19:39
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MiddleOne posted:Well we did have our Corbyn, it's just that unlike Corbyn he was not a unscrupulous saint so the internal rebellion actually worked. Juholt ? MiddleOne posted:Also I'm not sure what 2014 results you are remembering. The results are here but I can summarize the parties who actually gained voters in 2014 for you because you're forgetting something: I forgot Gudruns initiative. Easy to do, since they had their chance and missed it. Regarding FI, I would say that their voters were just reallocation within the left, which the polls indicate. After last election Fi dropped 1% in the polls and V gained 1%. They also probably got some voters from MP. For the record, I consider MP to be a left wing party. To your numbers I would like to add the current polls which have been stable for a year or so. There S is down 4-5%, V+2, SD+7 and MP down 2-3. In total a decrease for the left. Regardless, I agree with your conclusion ( but not the magnitudes) of a push to the left and the right. V is obviously gaining voters from S and MP, but I have a hard time seeing them being able to collect voters that went from S&M to SD with their current rhetorics. freelancemoth posted:Sorry I mean that the Social Democrats are not talking to the working class anymore. Vänsterpartiet could pick them up but they have a bad habit almost completely ignoring the countryside and focus soley on "urban issues". V is actually more of a middle class party with relatively high number of academics. M, S and SD have a higher proportion of working class than V, which shows why they have issues in that area. Doesn't help with a party leader living on Östermalm.
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Oct 2, 2016 20:04
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Cardiac posted:V is actually more of a middle class party with relatively high number of academics. Shouldn't Vänsterpartiet be more aggressive in trying to get more working class support?
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Oct 2, 2016 20:35
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freelancemoth posted:Shouldn't Vänsterpartiet be more aggressive in trying to get more working class support? The old working class has become the new middle class. There is a new working class, guess who?
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Oct 2, 2016 21:24
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"Urban issues", wow.
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Oct 2, 2016 21:24
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Svartvit posted:"Urban issues", wow. ?
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Oct 2, 2016 23:47
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Svartvit posted:"Urban issues", wow.
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Oct 3, 2016 05:26
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Unironically what I think of when I think of V voters interests, or those of the similar left alliance in finland, same for our greens,
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Oct 3, 2016 06:33
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freelancemoth posted:Shouldn't Vänsterpartiet be more aggressive in trying to get more working class support? That is the core of my question. With everything happening in EU, globalisation and other things, why are the left unable to gain any major traction in the polls? Neoliberalism/libertarianism is inherently bad for the working classes since it will lead to oligarchies, jobs are more and more specialised and we are removing the simpler jobs, work security is going downwards with consult/contractorbusinesses and as Picketty showed, there will be less and less chance for someone to change social class and inherited money will play a larger role, we have developed a political class with less and less connection with the working class. Svartvit posted:The old working class has become the new middle class. There is a new working class, guess who? Shouldn't that class be working in that case? There is a marxist name for that class and it is not working class. But yeah, you give one explanation why the working class is not really going to the left. Also, that tactic also seems to be working so and so, considering SD have higher support among foreign-born than either V and MP.
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Oct 3, 2016 07:34
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Working class people are also bad at correctly identifying the true causes of their woes and many of them subscribe to hardcore right wing economic ideas. I know a lot of people complaining about taxes going up all the time and thinking the rich must have got it worse, despite the fact being we're paying more taxes, so the rich can pay less. The rich have succeeded in making the working class feel solidarity with them.
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Oct 3, 2016 08:10
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His Divine Shadow posted:Working class people are also bad at correctly identifying the true causes of their woes and many of them subscribe to hardcore right wing economic ideas. This sentence is also part of the problem. The constant "we know better than you, why don't you listen to us" among the left is not really helping you know. Treating someone like an idiot is never part of the solution. His Divine Shadow posted:I know a lot of people complaining about taxes going up all the time and thinking the rich must have got it worse, despite the fact being we're paying more taxes, so the rich can pay less. Pretty much. If you have more money, things with a fixed cost will take a lesser proportion of your income and therefore you will have more cash left over. This is the basis for progressively increasing taxes with income levels. Problem with that is that you don't give incentives to studying or taking risks. But of course, here you have a difference between the 1% and the 10%. For example, if you look the latest Swedish budget you see a budget that punishes the lower class more than the higher ones since you increase the cost of gasoline and electricity as examples. There are some tax raises on higher level income, but not significantly. That is one thing Alliansen were smart about, tax cuts that effectively caused even low earners to get an additional month salary per year.
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Oct 3, 2016 08:22
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http://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/organiserat-tiggeri-avslojades-i-goteborg Well, this is a surprise. SD was right?
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Oct 5, 2016 16:56
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Speaking as someone actually from that side of Sweden, Göteborg has had troubles with crime and begging since way, and I mean waaaaay, before the current Romani situation. I'd be careful about conflating the two.
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Oct 5, 2016 19:07
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freelancemoth posted:http://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/organiserat-tiggeri-avslojades-i-goteborg It's a surprise if you've been avoiding reading newspapers for the past two years.
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Oct 5, 2016 19:22
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MiddleOne posted:Speaking as someone actually from that side of Sweden, Göteborg has had troubles with crime and begging since way, and I mean waaaaay, before the current Romani situation. I'd be careful about conflating the two. but how about criminals organizing begging, did ya get that before?
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Oct 5, 2016 19:40
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Wild Horses posted:but how about criminals organizing begging, did ya get that before? Yes that was some awkward phrasing and I stand by it. 
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Oct 5, 2016 22:21
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Svartvit posted:It's a surprise if you've been avoiding reading newspapers for the past two years. Surprise that SD was right or that organised begging exists? Regardless, until next election the rest of the parties are going to have to live with SD being all  and basically going "I told you so" to most things. Going to be interesting to see how they deal with it, considering how few things actually stick to SD in terms of polling. The same things we see with Trump now and his ability to ignore scandals is the same political position that SD managed to reach long ago.
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Oct 6, 2016 06:40
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I must admit that they've gotten way better at dogwhistles over the years. The recent motion to supress media consolidation by "ethnic groups"( ) being the latest example.
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Oct 6, 2016 07:26
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