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CharlestonJew posted:is outlast really homophobic tho? there's gross sex stuff but I think the sex is supposed to be gross because one of the participants is dead, not because they're both dudes i think the underlying interpretation takes it that way, but whether the devs intentionally implied it is or if it just comes with the territory isn't known afaik there haven't been any postmortems discussing the themes or territory with the devs e: the territory being male prison rape, to clarify
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Oct 5, 2016 19:41
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Safari Disco Lion posted:I'm sorry that relatively civil, interesting conversations about lazily-written horror games has triggered you so hard. I was part of that conversation, buddy. It only turned sour when someone walked in saying that a video game was bad because of his (unsupported) idea that it was somehow chock-full of toxic messaging about the mentally ill and gay people. I didn't even like Outlast that much - jump scares mostly roll off me and Game Over blare hurt my ears to the point where I had to smack Mute every time I died - but the argument that it's bad because of some covert ideology has always been ridiculous and gets touted almost exclusively by people trying to act holier-than-thou about their tastes. And that's always a losing game in horror, which has exploitation and tastelessness built right into the genre's bedrock. Outlast splashes deeper in that cesspool that most other games with that much publicity, but saying it's as stylistically bankrupt as something like Hatred is a little far, I think.
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Oct 5, 2016 19:46
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Oxxidation posted:I was part of that conversation, buddy. It only turned sour when someone walked in saying that a video game was bad because of his (unsupported) idea that it was somehow chock-full of toxic messaging about the mentally ill and gay people. No, actually, you've been pretty intent on trying to shut down any conversation and criticism of the game by purposefully misconstruing it as "the game is worthless and the devs are bad people for doing it".
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Oct 5, 2016 19:53
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New season of Archer looking pretty wild.
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Oct 5, 2016 19:55
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I don't know if I'd call it a "death of the author" scenario because for all we know the devs DID sit there wringing their hands, cackling at how many feathers their new psycho killer was going to rustle. Or they may have genuinely believed they were producing a truly horrifying experience and pushing the boundaries of what they could get away with. It's sparked some great debate though so I'm thankful for that. For what it's worth the scene was horrible to me because of the genital mutilation and not much else. The implications are there, sure. But beyond having my nards shredded? I'm one hundred percent on the side of nothing being off limits when it comes to horror too. You don't always NEED to go 100% with it, but stopping people from going there just hurts the genre.
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Oct 5, 2016 19:57
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CharlestonJew posted:is outlast really homophobic tho? NSFW link http://imgur.com/in6D1ly This is my analysis - my musing - on it, I'm not saying this is 100% how this all went down, okay?: Why did the developers make the decision to make these enemies buff, nude, with obvious dicks? Not just obvious dicks, but fine-looking dicks accompanied by pretty hot bods? They could have been heinously thin (like in real snake den asylums, which would starve their residents), or had small dicks, or mutilated dicks, or they could have just put a shadow there or some underwear, but they chose to give these really cut dudes some nice schlongs. Who would be scared by a confrontation with a pretty nice dick? Is it a presumed straight male player? Hmmmmmmmmmm.... It's not that the game is gay-bashing or throwing around the word "human being" or anything. There is a subtle thing going on here - a decision to have the presumed straight male player be accosted by some dudes packin' heat. It inspires homophobia because it is rooted in the fear of being gay - that dick is attached to a hot bod. So many streamers and LPers with scarecams going OH GOD, WHAT IS THIS GAY poo poo LOL AAAAAAA. The developers may have hoped for this visceral reaction, and they ramped that up further in Whistleblower by trying to make the emasculation even more apparent with the Groom literally saying he is going to make you a woman, but there's STILL people going "uh nooo?? it's just that I like my dick and don't want it cut off and that is the only reason why this is scary ok????" I also agree that Oxxidation is being a dumbo and shutting down a really interesting and civil conversation about analyzing horror games. Booooo. EDIT: I would also like to remind everyone that nobody here is advocating for the censorship of these games, just that we be allowed to discuss its themes (apparent or subtle, intentional or not) like normal humans and not like gamer pissbabies who think games should be respected and treated as art but not be criticized, as if those two ideas aren't in direct opposition of each other. Criticism is not a call for censorship, you ninnies. VoidBurger fucked around with this message at 20:03 on Oct 5, 2016 |
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Oct 5, 2016 19:59
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VoidBurger posted:My main complaint is that Outlast is the Hatred of horror games. It's trying so hard to be edgy in a desperate attempt to be memorable and strike up more sales, while not actually putting any effort into the scares, doing anything genuinely new, or having decent AI. I know opinions are subjective as hell but I think that saying Outlast is like Hatred is selling Outlast pretty damned short. I thought Outlast was definitely going for more of a grindhouse feel (or I guess more of a torture porn feel, idk which would describe it better) but outlast was still pretty memorable. It had memorable characters, memorable scenes, and the fact that your character could actually move worth a drat was pretty cool since that gave the escape sequences a lot more tension. Sure, you could break the game if you know how to juke the AI, but a lot of people playing these kinds of horror games aren't going to know how to do that, so the game is plenty tense and scary on its own merits. I mean, amnesia the dark descent is regularly praised as being a great horror game even though there are plenty of ways to break it mechanically. I know you don't like Outlast but I think you're being hyperbolic.
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Oct 5, 2016 20:01
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CharlestonJew posted:it might be cliché but claiming that the entire point of the game is "people with mental illness are all craaaaaaaaaaaaaazy" is equally lazy. it's just a horror game in a spook house with some gross-out elements, no big overarching message that the developers want you to walk away with at the end of it all You're a loving idiot
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Oct 5, 2016 20:01
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Lasher posted:I don't know if I'd call it a "death of the author" scenario because for all we know the devs DID sit there wringing their hands, cackling at how many feathers their new psycho killer was going to rustle. Or they may have genuinely believed they were producing a truly horrifying experience and pushing the boundaries of what they could get away with. It's sparked some great debate though so I'm thankful for that. I only saw one person in this thread say they don't want horror games to go there, pretty much everybody else is saying they want it done well. The hand scene in the first Outlast was pointless and did absolutely nothing but just make your skin crawl a little. The character was just "hahaha I'm crazy! I'ma torture you! For no reason! I literally popped out of nowhere just to do that!" Didn't even change the gameplay even though your hand was all hosed up. Dropping the camera in a hole did more for the game. The nards scene in WB had pretty bad pacing and dialogue and really needed an editor to trim it down. Both of these things could have been monumental, effective scenes, specifically because the devs were so willing to break boundaries and go too far. But they just kind of did it all for its own sake. Doesn't do anything for the game as a whole, wasn't even executed well on its own, it's just...there. It's like Silent Hill, where the entire experience is uncomfortable and unsettling and there's very few moments in the game where you can truly relax and it all has purpose, and the series is legendary for it. Outlast is, without the gross-out scenes and ridiculous amounts of gore and offal, kind of generic stealth suspense with a few jump scares here and there.
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Oct 5, 2016 20:05
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So as a straight dude who isn't bothered by seeing dicks or being scared of being threats of "making me a woman" have I proved your point? drat, thread is moving fast.
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Oct 5, 2016 20:05
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FirstAidKite posted:I know opinions are subjective as hell but I think that saying Outlast is like Hatred is selling Outlast pretty damned short. I thought Outlast was definitely going for more of a grindhouse feel (or I guess more of a torture porn feel, idk which would describe it better) but outlast was still pretty memorable. It had memorable characters, memorable scenes, and the fact that your character could actually move worth a drat was pretty cool since that gave the escape sequences a lot more tension. Sure, you could break the game if you know how to juke the AI, but a lot of people playing these kinds of horror games aren't going to know how to do that, so the game is plenty tense and scary on its own merits. I mean, amnesia the dark descent is regularly praised as being a great horror game even though there are plenty of ways to break it mechanically. You're probably right, actually. Sorry for getting a bit hyperbolic there! I think it's the fervent defenders that reminded me of Hatred as well? People who are like "I didn't even like [Outlast/Hatred] but DON'T YOU CENSOR IT" whenever the games are criticized at all seem to pop up a lot with both games.
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Oct 5, 2016 20:06
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I resent Outlast because a lot of people told me I would like it if I liked Amnesia, but actually I thought it sucked and wasn't even in the same league as The Dark Descent.
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Oct 5, 2016 20:06
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VoidBurger posted:Not just obvious dicks, but fine-looking dicks accompanied by pretty hot bods? Eww what does it say about me that this is the only part of your argument I take issue with
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Oct 5, 2016 20:06
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That beggars CAN be choosers? 
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Oct 5, 2016 20:08
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Like drat girl, pretend I modified silent hill 3 so that during that one scene, whats-his-face says "they look like fine-looking dicks to you?"
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Oct 5, 2016 20:08
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Jmcrofts posted:I resent Outlast because a lot of people told me I would like it if I liked Amnesia, but actually I thought it sucked and wasn't even in the same league as The Dark Descent. I always kinda go 'meh' when people's go-to "IT'S REALLY SPOOKY" example is Amnesia. Like I thought Amnesia was pretty fun and it was a neat game and all, but I always liked Penumbra 1+2 more, for whatever reason those games really did it for me a whole lot more than Amnesia ever did.
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Oct 5, 2016 20:09
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I'd like that dude who modified the Silent Hill wiki to make all the articles about circumcision to weigh in on the Outlast dick-chat because I didn't see one uncut dick in there.
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Oct 5, 2016 20:10
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On top of all that, it is more about the person than the enforced subject matter. There isn't a bunch of gay sex going on, they aren't trying to do anything that direct, it's just a bunch of dudes with big ol' dicks running around. I had no issue with it because I'm into dudes, but a lot of people reacted very strongly to it not because the game is homophobic, but because they are. Gotta go over the top with the reaction or people might think you're gay, oh nooooooo. A horror game causing a reflection of the person playing it? Why I never.
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Oct 5, 2016 20:10
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Safari Disco Lion posted:and the series is legendary for it well, was. shame about homecoming
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Oct 5, 2016 20:10
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Lasher posted:So as a straight dude who isn't bothered by seeing dicks or being scared of being threats of "making me a woman" have I proved your point? FirstAidKite posted:Eww what does it say about me that this is the only part of your argument I take issue with  (No comment on circumcision preferences though.)
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Oct 5, 2016 20:10
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Lasher posted:You don't always NEED to go 100% with it, but stopping people from going there just hurts the genre. I also take issue with this specifically. If, as a writer, you can not only not write well with NO boundaries or limits, but you also can't be creative and interesting when there ARE clear lines you can't cross, you're a bad writer. Full stop, do not pass go, you are uncreative and uninteresting and have no imagination. DreamShipWrecked posted:There isn't a bunch of gay sex going on Er, there kinda is though at some parts in Outlast. The whole dude-about-to-pork-a-dead-guy-while-another-guy-watches bit, the guy that 'loves' men by eating them, the dude jerking off to a pile of mutilated men's corpses. And if I remember right more than a few patients who were sexually abused by men. There's no explicit "two men having actual sex" but there's no shortage of homoerotic (not the right word here but I can't think of another way to say it) circumstances in Outlast. Safari Disco Lion fucked around with this message at 20:16 on Oct 5, 2016 |
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Oct 5, 2016 20:11
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Actually about Outlast, I felt it didn't have any problem with the "people in mental institutes are murderous psychopats" trope. I say this because while it feels like that in the beginning, the game makes it clear all of the inhabitants are victims of the horrors done to them. Hell, it's a game where I felt really sorry for all the people sitting around losing their minds in a messed up hellhole they've been abandoned in, even the guys trying to kill me I was sympathetic with. With the exception of I think a couple boss type enemies that were straight up assholes even before going insane. Anyways I feel like it did something right to make me feel this way. Contrast thus to like, Indigo Prophecy where you go into a normal insane asylum and the patients want to, and will, murder you if caught because of course they will, they're craaaazy! Now that was hosed up.
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Oct 5, 2016 20:13
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DreamShipWrecked posted:On top of all that, it is more about the person than the enforced subject matter. There isn't a bunch of gay sex going on, they aren't trying to do anything that direct, it's just a bunch of dudes with big ol' dicks running around. I had no issue with it because I'm into dudes, but a lot of people reacted very strongly to it not because the game is homophobic, but because they are. Gotta go over the top with the reaction or people might think you're gay, oh nooooooo. VoidBurger posted:Being an single exception to a theory doesn't really prove or disprove the theory. I think I'm missing things here. Genuinely. Not trying to come off as an rear end in a top hat, which is easy to do online, obviously. I wasn't around when Outlast dropped, I've not seen any of these kinds of reactions and now here I am, fumbling around in the dark trying to make sense of it all.
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Oct 5, 2016 20:13
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Safari Disco Lion posted:I also take issue with this specifically. If, as a writer, you can not only not write well with NO boundaries or limits, but you also can't be creative and interesting when there ARE clear lines you can't cross, you're a bad writer. Full stop, do not pass go, you are uncreative and uninteresting and have no imagination. Oh yeah, without a doubt. But if someone like Clive Barker were to be told never to include sexual violence in his works then he'd be servings pints in a pub somewhere.
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Oct 5, 2016 20:15
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Lasher posted:I think I'm missing things here. Genuinely. Not trying to come off as an rear end in a top hat, which is easy to do online, obviously. I wasn't around when Outlast dropped, I've not seen any of these kinds of reactions and now here I am, fumbling around in the dark trying to make sense of it all. When the game dropped there really was. Tons and tons of "DEAR GOD DICKS" and most of the streamers and lpers were just falling over themselves
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Oct 5, 2016 20:16
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I wasn't too psyched to revisit Outlast in a few days but dang, I sure am now!
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Oct 5, 2016 20:17
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Lasher posted:I think I'm missing things here. Genuinely. Not trying to come off as an rear end in a top hat, which is easy to do online, obviously. I wasn't around when Outlast dropped, I've not seen any of these kinds of reactions and now here I am, fumbling around in the dark trying to make sense of it all. a friend who rec'd outlast to me did so with the following statement: "dude its crazy scary, you're getting chased by these gay dudes who wanna eat your liver". the twins weren't in any way labeled to be gay or anything, they just naked. a lot of the youtuber crowd also did the whole "no homo brah stop chasing me" thing which was annoying smuh posted:Actually about Outlast, I felt it didn't have any problem with the "people in mental institutes are murderous psychopats" trope. I say this because while it feels like that in the beginning, the game makes it clear all of the inhabitants are victims of the horrors done to them. Hell, it's a game where I felt really sorry for all the people sitting around losing their minds in a messed up hellhole they've been abandoned in, even the guys trying to kill me I was sympathetic with. With the exception of I think a couple boss type enemies that were straight up assholes even before going insane. Anyways I feel like it did something right to make me feel this way. man gently caress david cage, i forgot about that and now im irritated over a dumb 10 year old game again
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Oct 5, 2016 20:18
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I liked the Twins, honestly. Nice chaps. Fun dialogue. A bit capricious. Only tried to stab me maybe fifty percent of the time.
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Oct 5, 2016 20:19
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DreamShipWrecked posted:a lot of people reacted very strongly to it not because the game is homophobic, but because they are. Gotta go over the top with the reaction or people might think you're gay, oh nooooooo. The shame is that Outlast never actually makes the player examine that reaction or reflect upon it.  If it did, I would be a lot less critical of this route, because it would have a more substantial point than just being a homophobic knee-jerk.
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Oct 5, 2016 20:19
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I should have guessed, really. Like Watchmen, when that came out all anyone could talk about was the giant blue dick. Hahahaha. What a loving world we live in.
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Oct 5, 2016 20:19
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I genuinely don't think it's Outlasts fault that seeing a penis makes manchildren scream and make gay jokes. It just had naked dudes, and thats weird, whats with these naked dudes??!! and I think that's all there was. Hell that GTAIV expansion had full on dick into your face action in a cutscene and it probably had the same reaction edit: i accidentally wrote "a seeing penis" first and now that would have been terrifying edit2: my gta comparison makes no sense since that absolutely was only for shock value and getting youtube lprs go nuts smuh fucked around with this message at 20:27 on Oct 5, 2016 |
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Oct 5, 2016 20:23
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Yardbomb posted:I always kinda go 'meh' when people's go-to "IT'S REALLY SPOOKY" example is Amnesia. Like I thought Amnesia was pretty fun and it was a neat game and all, but I always liked Penumbra 1+2 more, for whatever reason those games really did it for me a whole lot more than Amnesia ever did. I felt the same way. Amnesia was spooky, for sure, but Penumbra had this sense of crushing despair - this knowledge that your character is in the middle of the wilderness, surrounded by nothing but rock, and there's is a certainty that he is not going to get out of this alive.
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Oct 5, 2016 20:24
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I'm saying Outlast is lovely schlock.
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Oct 5, 2016 20:24
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VoidBurger posted:This is what I'm saying! I think the devs (who are all dudes by the way, except for the Dialogue Post-Production person and the Conductor), wanted to exploit that reaction, that ingrained "no-homo!!" thing, and are presuming the (probably male, probably straight) player is at least unconsciously homophobic and would be made uncomfortable by this. Without trying to be 'wharrr inclusion there should be at least a few of every type of person whaaaar' Tumblr-ish, I think Outlast would have actually benefited from, I dunno, a sympathetic gay character or something? A patient who's not one of the cannibal murderer types but is terrified of what might happen to him but he tries to help you in your escape and you have to try to protect him? Something to create an emotional connection with the player, and to sort of highlight that these are real people being mistreated and abused by a corrupt system who's only out for profit, and that a big chunk of what's going on is also sexual violence against men, so let's make a situation where the player feels directly affected by that that ISN'T the goofy Groom thing. Give them a reason to want to stop what's going on and not just save their own skin. That one guy in the kitchen was good but I didn't think it was enough, there should have been more like that, and having it also be a gay man would have sort of offset the internalized homophobia shock value thing a lot of other parts of the game went for.
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Oct 5, 2016 20:25
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smuh posted:I genuinely don't think it's Outlasts fault that a seeing a penis makes manchildren scream and make gay jokes. It just had naked dudes, and thats weird, whats with these naked dudes??!! and I think that's all there was. Hell that GTAIV expansion had full on dick into your face action in a cutscene and it probably had the same reaction The constant in-your-face male nudity and male-on-male violence probably isn't purposeless, especially because it's still not done all that often in games - the devs were exploiting a bit of subject matter commonly thought of as taboo to get stronger reactions and more publicity. And like Voidburger said, it's all very surface-level, since the game itself doesn't have much in the way of larger themes and messaging. It's wall to wall grindhouse-y violence and pain and concludes (at least in Whistleblower) with just enough catharsis to keep the whole thing from feeling like an afterthought.
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Oct 5, 2016 20:26
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Safari Disco Lion posted:Without trying to be 'wharrr inclusion there should be at least a few of every type of person whaaaar' Tumblr-ish, I think Outlast would have actually benefited from, I dunno, a sympathetic gay character or something? 
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Oct 5, 2016 20:28
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I remember reading this interview around the time Whistleblower came out and it really drove home for me just how little these devs considered the implications of their writing. quote:FOGKNIGHT: Why an asylum was the setting of Outlast? There could have been more options so I am curious about that one. And that's fine. It's not mandatory for a team of creatives to make something that dives deeper than the surface level or puts an entirely new spin on things. But Outlast and Whistleblower are both really bad in my opinion and that can be partially chalked up to just how rote and paint-by-numbers they are. JordanKai fucked around with this message at 20:32 on Oct 5, 2016 |
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Oct 5, 2016 20:29
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Safari Disco Lion posted:Without trying to be 'wharrr inclusion there should be at least a few of every type of person whaaaar' Tumblr-ish, I think Outlast would have actually benefited from, I dunno, a sympathetic gay character or something? A patient who's not one of the cannibal murderer types but is terrified of what might happen to him but he tries to help you in your escape and you have to try to protect him? Something to create an emotional connection with the player, and to sort of highlight that these are real people being mistreated and abused by a corrupt system who's only out for profit. That one guy in the kitchen was great but I didn't think it was enough, there should have been more like that, and having it also be a gay man would have sort of offset the internalized homophobia shock value thing a lot of other parts of the game went for. not to diminish this thought but the idea behind outlast (and whistleblower) is that you are alone in the haunted house, having a character to tag along, or create a larger emotional connection with, would be antithetical to this bulletpoint, which is likely why they didn't go that route i can't think of a horror game with escort npc tendancies to be particularly disturbing or horrifying either, tbh. not that outlast was much of either in any case VoidBurger posted:Alas, all we have as far as good gay characters in horror games is Trevor from Phantasmagoria 2: A Puzzle of Flesh. lmao boy are my arms tired fucked around with this message at 20:32 on Oct 5, 2016 |
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Oct 5, 2016 20:29
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Wow thats a damning interview.
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Oct 5, 2016 20:31
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JordanKai posted:I remember reading this interview around the time Whistleblower came out and it really drove home for me just how little these devs considered the implications of their writing. oof that's awful well there goes any deep-dive thoughts i may have had about the devs
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Oct 5, 2016 20:31
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