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Mimesweeper posted:Oh come on, it was a grossly simplified explanation but there's nothing wrong with what I said. Electricity DOES return to the source, that's the point of the EGC - but the grounding conductor DOES NOT protect against electric shock. It is a fault path so your protective device can operate as quickly as possible. If you are in parallel, you can absolutely receive a fatal shock at the same time that the fault occurs, before the protective device operates. Everything you said was wrong. I'm not even arguing semantics, your explanation is literally untrue on both counts. It is a common misconception about the intent and protective scope of grounding and bonding, that I would like to correct. baquerd posted:It's totally against code, but have you ever seen a 20 amp plug in-person? I'd think the "real" danger here is pretty low because there are amazingly few devices that use the plug, and they tend to be heavy industrial use stuff. I agree it's probably a pretty low danger, but hey, he asked and that's the answer. angryrobots fucked around with this message at 21:07 on Oct 1, 2016 |
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Oct 1, 2016 20:59
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angryrobots posted:Electricity DOES return to the source, that's the point of the EGC - but the grounding conductor DOES NOT protect against electric shock. It is a fault path so your protective device can operate as quickly as possible. If you are in parallel, you can absolutely receive a fatal shock at the same time that the fault occurs, before the protective device operates. Well I get all of that but you're right, it's not what I wrote. That's what I get for half assing an explanation I guess.
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Oct 1, 2016 21:04
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kid sinister posted:Yes, that is OK if the track is designed for a connection like that or has an add-on end piece designed for it, but you'll have the problem of what to do with the old box and how you're going to attach the new wiring to the old. Except for one Tyco connector, all wiring junctions must be made in exposed boxes. You'd either need one of those, then remove the box and and plaster over the hole, or just use a flat cover over the old box. Hmm, if that's okay, I might do that, then. I like the idea of just using a flat cover over the old box and fishing new wire up from there to a hole where I can use one of those connectors higher up. Plus, the cover allows anyone in the future to make this place look all old-timey again. quote:As for your track idea I'd also imagine that any inspector later wouldn't like you having exposed track low enough on the wall that someone could stick their finger in. Do they make covered sections that you could use for the vertical section? I did not think of that at all. That's an extremely good point, I don't think they make covered sections. Scratch that idea! quote:That was actually a pretty impressive fishing job in the video by the way. Drilling a hole that high almost ensures that you will be drilling into the top plate of the stud wall. He managed to drill a hole through that surface, avoid the top plate and turn a corner doing it. From the handful of times I've ever fished wire, I was incredibly impressed. (But I'm also not a pro at any of this.) Thanks for your help!
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Oct 1, 2016 21:13
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Mimesweeper posted:Well I get all of that but you're right, it's not what I wrote. That's what I get for half assing an explanation I guess. I try to define things related to grounding and bonding in a very particular way, that I absolutely stole from Mike Holt.
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Oct 1, 2016 21:24
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baquerd posted:It's totally against code, but have you ever seen a 20 amp plug in-person? I'd think the "real" danger here is pretty low because there are amazingly few devices that use the plug, and they tend to be heavy industrial use stuff. I have! It was on a small data center cabinet power strip.
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Oct 2, 2016 03:09
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baquerd posted:It's totally against code, but have you ever seen a 20 amp plug in-person? I'd think the "real" danger here is pretty low because there are amazingly few devices that use the plug, and they tend to be heavy industrial use stuff.
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Oct 2, 2016 03:27
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So, I'm living in a rental house that was built in the 50s, and we've decided to buy a dehumidifier since it gets decently humid(a calibrated hygrometer is pegging it at 60% right now). The wiring here is old. Most of the outlets are two-pronged, and the few 3-pronged ones seem to be ungrounded. The dehumidifier we got has a bunch of warnings about not bypassing the ground and I'd like to heed those warnings, plus the ideal location for it is near an outlet with only 2 prongs. What's the best way of dealing with this? Should I just install a GFCI outlet? I'm going to ask my landlords to deal with this, but right now I wanna assume they aren't and see what I should do if they won't.
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Oct 2, 2016 08:28
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Finally passed my electrical inspection!  I had to switch out my outlets to Tamper Resistant, make the first outlet on each circuit a GFCI, ground all the metal boxes, and swap the conduit risers with schedule 80. I can finally move forward and also cover up the trench.
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Oct 3, 2016 16:11
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So it begins: https://imgur.com/a/PohuN - Hopefully nothing too horrifying. At the beginning of the day he had wired that temp power straight to the service line.
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Oct 4, 2016 02:29
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Dubstep Jesus posted:So, I'm living in a rental house that was built in the 50s, and we've decided to buy a dehumidifier since it gets decently humid(a calibrated hygrometer is pegging it at 60% right now). I wrote up a 3 prong upgrade post linked in the OP that should answer most of your questions. How old is your dehumidifier? Older appliances (like, 2004 and prior) with big motors tend to trip GFCIs with false positives.
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Oct 5, 2016 01:11
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I'm planning out circuits for my workshop, and I want to do a quick sanity check: would it make sense to put a switch next to each outlet box that controls power to the outlet? That is, instead of having a 1-gang box with a pair of outlets, have a 2-gang, with two outlets and a switch. The theory is that this would let me easily guarantee that anything plugged into the outlet is not getting power, which can be useful for when I need to work on power tools that don't have a built in safety cutoff. Part of the reason I'm asking is because I found these switches for $.70 apiece. That seems weirdly low-priced, especially considering the 5-star review ranking. EDIT: fixed a typo. TooMuchAbstraction fucked around with this message at 03:03 on Oct 5, 2016 |
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Oct 5, 2016 02:57
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Couldn't you unplug stuff you're working on? I mean there's no reason you couldn't switch every outlet like that if you want, it just seems like overkill when you could pull the cord out of the receptacle.
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Oct 5, 2016 03:11
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Mimesweeper posted:Couldn't you unplug stuff you're working on? Oh, absolutely I could. I think I'd prefer flipping a switch at least for some of them though. Mostly I'm just considering my options right now.
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Oct 5, 2016 03:47
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:I'm planning out circuits for my workshop, and I want to do a quick sanity check: would it make sense to put a switch next to each outlet box that controls power to the outlet? Basic outlets and switches are <$1. They also make switched combo devices, and devices with lights on them. Nothing beats checking your death wheel is actually de-energized before futzing with it though. http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/SectionDisplay.jsp?section=42300&minisite=10251&itemsPerPage=All Edit: I need to remind my Leviton rep he owes me more steak and alcohol. They keep loving up our low voltage stuff in subtle ways that don't present themselves until it's in a foreign country like Ashburn, VA. H110Hawk fucked around with this message at 04:36 on Oct 5, 2016 |
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Oct 5, 2016 04:32
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It's starting to look like my issue here is assuming that Amazon's prices on these things approaches something vaguely reasonable. They're selling plastic 1-gang boxes for $7, for example. I suspect this is them bundling the shipping cost into the price of the item, and what I should really do is head to Home Depot tomorrow and browse a bit. Might as well swing by the scrapyard and pick up some more armored cable while I'm at it.
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Oct 5, 2016 04:44
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:They're selling plastic 1-gang boxes for $7, for example. What the hell?!?!?!
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Oct 5, 2016 04:53
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Bad Munki posted:What the hell?!?!?! See for yourself. This kind of thing is why Amazon Prime isn't quite the great deal it's made out to be -- cheap, bulky items tend to cost way more on Amazon than they would in big-box stores.
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Oct 5, 2016 04:56
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Why are you looking at some fancy pants all white surface mount box anyhow? Isn't this for a shop? Nail those cheap blue bastards into the studs, or if you really gotta surface mount, get some metal handy boxes, they're cheap as dirt too.
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Oct 5, 2016 05:02
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I've never done this before, I don't know poo poo about what I want, and I'm trying to figure that out by browsing Amazon, which is not equivalent to being able to pick the item up and look at it from all sides. Hence the planned HD trip tomorrow. (Amazon has metal boxes too; they're $2 apiece plus $8 shipping)
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Oct 5, 2016 05:04
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Okay, yeah, you got the right idea now, just go to whatever hardware store you like and fondle some boxes. They cost pennies in plastic and nickels in metal.
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Oct 5, 2016 05:07
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I think this is the basic single gang nailer most of us are familiar with https://www.amazon.com/Lamson-B120AR-UPC-Carlon-Single-Nail/dp/B00004WKWN ... holy poo poo that's pretty overpriced too. edit: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Carlon-1-Gang-20-cu-in-New-Work-Box-B120A-UPC/205319652 that's more like it. Mimesweeper fucked around with this message at 05:10 on Oct 5, 2016 |
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Oct 5, 2016 05:08
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That's insanity. Those nails had better be tungsten or something.
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Oct 5, 2016 05:11
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Nope, the Amazon boxes, like standard blue Carlon boxes, are identical to what Home Depot carries, just roughly 4x the price. I've done a lot with both low-voltage boxes and all different types of Carlon receptacle boxes and faceplates and it's amazing how much cheaper it is to go to a Home Depot / Lowes for all of the parts versus ordering from Amazon.
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Oct 5, 2016 05:22
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Okay, checking in that I'm not royally loving things up here. A few questions! First off, turns out the armored cable / flex cable I got from the scrapyard has red, white, and bare conductors. Is this okay, or do I have to have a black conductor for the hot line? It's my understanding that red is an alternate, if rare, indicator for hot, and usually used for switched legs. But I doubt anyone would be confused by the colors in my boxes. Second, the building department required me to have a motion-activated light installed outside the workshop. I drilled through the wall to provide a pathway for the light's wires, and then mounted a box over the hole using one of the rear punch-outs. The wires for the light just go through the hole and into the box, no connector or anything. Is that okay? It seems like it'd be potentially possible for wires to rub on the wood fibers and eventually wear through. If it's not okay, what kind of connector do I use here? NB the weight of the light is born by the house frame, not by the box. Last, general feedback on my technique so far. I'm setting up the lighting circuit, so I've run wire from the (not-yet-hooked-up) panel, to a junction box, which goes to a) the motion-activated light, and b) the lightswitch. The lightswitch's "output" wires will then go to the indoor fixtures. Overall view. Panel on the right, lightswitch to the left of the door, junction box above the switch. Getting armored cable to lie straight seems to be basically impossible. I'm using 3/8" one-hole straps to hold the cable in place.  Close-up of junction box. Panel comes in from the top, switch from the bottom, motion-activated light out the back. It's a bit hard to tell, but I added a pigtail to the grounding group to ground the box. I just used a sheet-metal screw and a short length of 12ga aluminum wire.  Thanks everyone for your advice!
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Oct 5, 2016 23:16
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:Okay, checking in that I'm not royally loving things up here. A few questions!
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Oct 6, 2016 03:20
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Slugworth posted:I'll let someone more knowledgeable weigh in on the light wiring (my gut says you're gonna get dinged on it though), but a comment on the wiring above the door - Am I getting you mixed up with someone else, or did you say you wanted this shop to be easy to finish at some point in the future? I wouldn't have surface mounted conduit in that case. This is a fair point, but I think enough would need to be done to the structure as part of a hypothetical future finishing job that the wiring would need to be redone anyway, and I'd rather not drill holes through my studs any more than necessary. So my concession to "easy to finish" on this aspect of the job is merely that it'll be very easy to rip out the existing wiring.  I'm happy to fix up the wiring for the motion-activated light, I just don't know what the proper solution is. Put a very short bit of conduit in there with an insulated throat?
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Oct 6, 2016 04:00
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:I'm happy to fix up the wiring for the motion-activated light, I just don't know what the proper solution is. Put a very short bit of conduit in there with an insulated throat? Or cut out a hole in your siding for your existing box, and spin it around to face the exterior. Seal between the box and siding and any exterior light fixture will come with a gasket for the seam between fixture and box. But before you do any of that, let's hope one of the pros in this thread comes along and says your current setup is fine.
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Oct 6, 2016 15:38
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Slugworth posted:What I would have done is, rather than an interior box where you have it, an exterior surface mount box outside at the light location, then obviously you just run your conduit through the wall as needed. The light has two possible installation modes; one for connecting to a box and one for flush-mount directly on the wall. It does come with a gasket, and further recommends use of silicone caulk after installation.. I searched and searched for an exterior box to mount it on, but couldn't find it with Home Depot's useless search engine. Just now I tried Google and of course it turns up a million of them (on Home Depot's own site, even!), so oh well. I'd rather make the flush-mount work if possible, since it looks nicer. Problem is it's very poorly-documented in the light's manual compared to the "mount to a box" option.
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Oct 6, 2016 16:19
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:Okay, checking in that I'm not royally loving things up here. A few questions! Technically, green wire nuts are for grounds. It's not a rule, but you might want to change those out to not confuse anybody in the future. I wouldn't have surface mounted that MC above the door either, but to each his own.
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Oct 6, 2016 17:35
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kid sinister posted:Technically, green wire nuts are for grounds. It's not a rule, but you might want to change those out to not confuse anybody in the future. Oh, related question -- if I have a switch (or outlet) in a box, and the switch is grounded and connected to the box by metal screws, does the box itself need a ground wire as well? It'd be nice if I didn't have to try to combine four ground wires in a single nut (one for incoming cable, one for outgoing cable, one for switch, one for box). Intuitively I'd say that the screws provide a conductive path between the switch and box, so if the switch is grounded then the box is too, but the code may disagree. quote:I wouldn't have surface mounted that MC above the door either, but to each his own. So you'd've used a box too? Hrm. I guess maybe I could cut a hole in the siding to fit a box into, so the light wouldn't protrude so far from the wall. It's a lot of extra work compared to the flush mount, and I suspect still wouldn't look as nice. At least there's no time limit on all this stuff; I can go back in and fix the light whenever as long as I do it before final inspection. TooMuchAbstraction fucked around with this message at 17:49 on Oct 6, 2016 |
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Oct 6, 2016 17:47
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If its a metal box you're gonna need a green ground screw and a ground wire attached to it, I just got pinged for it on my last round of inspections. This can be avoided by using plastic boxes; its just one of the tradeoffs with metal vs plastic
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Oct 6, 2016 18:03
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:So you'd've used a box too? Hrm. I guess maybe I could cut a hole in the siding to fit a box into, so the light wouldn't protrude so far from the wall. It's a lot of extra work compared to the flush mount, and I suspect still wouldn't look as nice. I believe he's talking about the surface mounted cable, on the face of the studs. It's not illegal but is a non standard installation, let's say. The inspector may not like the green wire nuts. angryrobots fucked around with this message at 18:15 on Oct 6, 2016 |
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Oct 6, 2016 18:12
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:So you'd've used a box too? Hrm. I guess maybe I could cut a hole in the siding to fit a box into, so the light wouldn't protrude so far from the wall. It's a lot of extra work compared to the flush mount, and I suspect still wouldn't look as nice. For what it's worth, unless I'm wildly misunderstanding the fixture you've chosen, cutting a hole for the box is still going to result in a flush installation, same as a wall sconce inside your house or a ceiling fixture. You'll just be mounting to a box that is flush with your siding instead of the siding itself.
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Oct 6, 2016 18:15
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:Oh, related question -- if I have a switch (or outlet) in a box, and the switch is grounded and connected to the box by metal screws, does the box itself need a ground wire as well? It'd be nice if I didn't have to try to combine four ground wires in a single nut (one for incoming cable, one for outgoing cable, one for switch, one for box). Intuitively I'd say that the screws provide a conductive path between the switch and box, so if the switch is grounded then the box is too, but the code may disagree. I forgot, you need to ground the boxes too. That's mandatory for metal boxes. However, the question you asked is backwards, kind of. They do make "self-grounding" devices, both switches and outlets. Look for the spring wire in one of the screw holes to squeeze that screw against the frame. They're usually at least one step up from the cheapest devices. If self-grounding devices are mounted in a properly grounded metal box, then they do not need a ground wire. Still, it's good practice to attach them anyway.
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Oct 6, 2016 20:24
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Electrician has been here, and the main panel and sub panel are now connected by four #6 THHN wires (one of which is a ground cable). He also installed one of my GFCI breakers, hooked it up to the circuit I'd set up, I flipped the lightswitch...and the GFCI triggered. So I have a ground fault somewhere that I'll need to sort out. I asked him about the light, and he said the same thing you guys did -- put it on an exterior surface-mount box, and run Romex through the wall between the two boxes. Guess I'll do what y'all've told me; if I hear the same story enough times eventually it gets through this thick skull of mine. Re: box grounding, I just went ahead and bought a spool of green-clad wire that I can cut snippets off of to make grounding pigtails. I also got red and white wire nuts, so the hot, neutral, and ground all have different nuts on them. I want inspection to go as smoothly as possible on this, so I absolutely appreciate all the advice I've gotten here. Thanks, guys!
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Oct 6, 2016 23:12
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:I'm dealing with 12ga wires here. The green ones are the only nuts I saw at Home Depot that could combine more than 2 12ga wires in a single nut. EDIT: in retrospect, I should've checked the Pro store for a better selection. Will probably need to go back there soonish anyway, so I can get more nuts then. Even for a normal Home Depot, I'm surprised that was the only thing you could find. I was able to find this one at my local Lowes with minimal effort.. http://www.homedepot.com/p/Ideal-WINGTWIST-Assorted-Red-and-Yellow-Wire-Connectors-150-Pack-30-5152J/202956754 The bigger one in that package goes up to 5 12 gauge wires
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Oct 7, 2016 00:23
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What's the NEC depth requirement for burying phone line across a yard? No conduit or anything, just direct-buried phone line. I think I found the table but I'm having trouble deciphering it, I think my brain just isn't operating at full capacity tonight.
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Oct 7, 2016 00:26
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Bad Munki posted:What's the NEC depth requirement for burying phone line across a yard? No conduit or anything, just direct-buried phone line. I think I found the table but I'm having trouble deciphering it, I think my brain just isn't operating at full capacity tonight. I googled a bit and found this thread (NB dating from 2003) which implies that the NEC doesn't much care about low-voltage lines so long as you keep them away from the high-voltage stuff. Not that you should take that as being authoritative about anything. devicenull posted:Even for a normal Home Depot, I'm surprised that was the only thing you could find. In retrospect, I was too. Maybe I was being blind that day. 
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Oct 7, 2016 00:38
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:I googled a bit and found this thread (NB dating from 2003) which implies that the NEC doesn't much care about low-voltage lines so long as you keep them away from the high-voltage stuff. Not that you should take that as being authoritative about anything. Darn. Any experience with them patching a cut cord? Or do they need to run a whole new one? Because I sure as poo poo hope the former is an option, since the latter looks to involve going under some concrete... ...asking for a friend
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Oct 7, 2016 00:43
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Bad Munki posted:What's the NEC depth requirement for burying phone line across a yard? No conduit or anything, just direct-buried phone line. I think I found the table but I'm having trouble deciphering it, I think my brain just isn't operating at full capacity tonight. In my experience data guys don't have any code to follow at all, they sure just string their poo poo all over the place with no regard for anything or anyone. I've seen an awful lot of buried splices too. I don't actually know for sure but I think you can do whatever you like and it'll still be better than what you'd end up with if you called a professional. Mimesweeper fucked around with this message at 00:48 on Oct 7, 2016 |
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Oct 7, 2016 00:45
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