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asdf32 posted:The part where officials are elected to represent the people is similar. So is that part where those officials are required to check the power of industry. In one system the checks may end there. The other system adds competition and consumer markets. congress isn't required to do anything other then meet.
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Oct 6, 2016 03:30
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E: fuckin double post
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Oct 6, 2016 03:36
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Resource exhaustion and ecological collapse sound bad but I'm doing fine right now... I'm saying that while change needs to be made you can't ignore the benefits of the current system. Why do you think you're talking on an internet comedy forum and not sitting on a chair made out of dog bones stirring a pot of boot sludge? This weird insistence on gently caress IT THROW OUT EVERYTHING isn't going to help anyone, the only people who will come out the other side of that is the people you're trying to overthrow. I'm personally more for socialism than anything, communism is hilariously fragile and pure capitalism leads to donald loving trump being a presidential nominee.
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Oct 6, 2016 03:46
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It isn't necessary to throw everything out, but the fundamental dynamic in capitalism is the pursuit of self interest, at the expense of the commons and society as a whole. It, as a system, will subvert any barriers to that, up to and including government regulation, because that is where the incentives lie. Corruption is not a perturbation of liberal democracy, is the inevitable conclusion of the conflict between capitalism-as-a-system and democracy-as-a-system. Either one dies, or the other dies. I choose to save democracy, by killing capitalism.
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Oct 6, 2016 03:54
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yo i didn't even know this thread existed and people were postin all about how america needs to adopt a slightly more communitarian policies in order to sustain itself and then pretending that anyone else disagrees with them but philosophy and politics share a lot of the same letters i guess
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Oct 6, 2016 03:58
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rudatron posted:It isn't necessary to throw everything out, but the fundamental dynamic in capitalism is the pursuit of self interest, at the expense of the commons and society as a whole. When have the powerful ever not been motivated by self-interest?
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Oct 6, 2016 04:01
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Never. Which is why power must be rationed.
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Oct 6, 2016 04:06
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JeffersonClay posted:When have the powerful ever not been motivated by self-interest? making money in our modern society has become divorced from providing a societal good. the average consumer has become more concerned with making money than providing anything to society. in order to alleviate this, basic human needs should be provided for, as capitalists have monopolized not just the means of production, but means of survival. no one disagrees
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Oct 6, 2016 04:06
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JeffersonClay posted:When have the powerful ever not been motivated by self-interest? Well you know early empires and civilizations were little better than armed gangs and their prefered pillaging routes. But then these roman guys came along a lo and behold there came a time when there were people desperately asking them to join the club. That rule of law and citizenship stuff sure must have sounded good relatively back then.
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Oct 6, 2016 04:13
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rudatron posted:All 3 of those countries have major flaws I wouldn't want to replicate, but ideally yippy would have one system internationally, not separate national systems. I'm not sure about this because at least in the Socialist stage of the experiment this requires an effective one world government, and that doesn't seem workable whether it's left or right wing for a long long time
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Oct 6, 2016 04:15
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Fados posted:Well you know early empires and civilizations were little better than armed gangs and their prefered pillaging routes. But then these roman guys came along a lo and behold there came a time when there were people desperately asking them to join the club. That rule of law and citizenship stuff sure must have sounded good relatively back then.
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Oct 6, 2016 04:16
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and lol @ socialism saving the environment remember when the Soviet Union literally drained the largest inland sea on earth until it's empty to irrigate cotton fields and like 80% of the water went to waste because lovely canal engineering?
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Oct 6, 2016 04:18
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Typo posted:and lol @ socialism saving the environment remember when the Soviet Union literally drained the largest inland sea on earth until it's empty to irrigate cotton fields and like 80% of the water went to waste because lovely canal engineering?
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Oct 6, 2016 04:23
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cams posted:it's almost like "change the type of government" is not a helpful suggestion and it is about decisions that are made, how they are executed, and the existing circumstances so what is the socialist plan for envriomentalism
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Oct 6, 2016 04:25
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Typo posted:so what is the socialist plan for envriomentalism Literally anything other than pure profit this really isn't hard
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Oct 6, 2016 04:27
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Fiction posted:Literally anything other than pure profit this really isn't hard what does this even mean
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Oct 6, 2016 04:27
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Sure our current system necessitates the depletion of non renewable resources for constant growth because its only rule is "gently caress you got mine" but have you considered huh uh the soviet union?
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Oct 6, 2016 04:28
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Fiction posted:Sure our current system necessitates the depletion of non renewable resources for constant growth because its only rule is "gently caress you got mine" but have you considered huh uh the soviet union? So your solution is to cap economic growth
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Oct 6, 2016 04:29
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rudatron posted:It isn't necessary to throw everything out, but the fundamental dynamic in capitalism is the pursuit of self interest, at the expense of the commons and society as a whole. It, as a system, will subvert any barriers to that, up to and including government regulation, because that is where the incentives lie. Corruption is not a perturbation of liberal democracy, is the inevitable conclusion of the conflict between capitalism-as-a-system and democracy-as-a-system. Either one dies, or the other dies. I choose to save democracy, by killing capitalism. Unlike the others I know you're not dumb. So why in the world do you think that's unique to capitalism. rudatron posted:Never. Which is why power must be rationed. Which if you pay attention, is exactly what liberalism is with power distributed between the state, voters, consumers, and private institutions.
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Oct 6, 2016 04:30
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Typo posted:So your solution is to cap economic growth
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Oct 6, 2016 04:31
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cams posted:what are the societal benefits of economic growth. you get elected
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Oct 6, 2016 04:33
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Typo posted:So your solution is to cap economic growth The solution is to collectivize the means of energy production in such a way that it can be uniformly transformed into clean energy as is necessary to power any and all human economic endeavor, instead of relying on the profit gained off of slave labor to power the economy
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Oct 6, 2016 04:33
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Fiction posted:The solution is to collectivize the means of energy production in such a way that it can be uniformly transformed into clean energy as is necessary to power any and all human economic endeavor, instead of relying on the profit gained off of slave labor to power the economy so what kind of clean energy are you looking to transform to that couldn't be done under the current system?
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Oct 6, 2016 04:34
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asdf32 posted:Which if you pay attention, is exactly what liberalism is with power distributed between the state, voters, consumers, and private institutions. The State is functionally controlled by a small number of wealthy interests. The majority of people don't vote because they recognize that they are disenfranchised. The impact of consumers is completely overstated and the power of the consumer classes is undemocratic regardless. Private institutions are authoritarian by definition. E: "overstated" The Kingfish fucked around with this message at 04:40 on Oct 6, 2016 |
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Oct 6, 2016 04:35
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asdf32 posted:Unlike the others I know you're not dumb. So why in the world do you think that's unique to capitalism. Lol liberalism is 95% "private institutions" 5% unicorn farts posing as democracy
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Oct 6, 2016 04:35
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Typo posted:you get elected what are you even talking about
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Oct 6, 2016 04:35
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Typo posted:so what kind of clean energy are you looking to transform to that couldn't be done under the current system? Well its fundamentally more profitable to drag your feet as much as possible so you can continue to profit at the ideal margin, which is what capitalism entails
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Oct 6, 2016 04:36
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cams posted:cool then i hope we are able to elect politicians that can pass progressive legislation that can do some good a political party which promises to cap economic growth is not viable in electoral politics.
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Oct 6, 2016 04:37
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Fiction posted:Well its fundamentally more profitable to drag your feet as much as possible so you can continue to profit at the ideal margin, which is what capitalism entails idk dude it doesn't seem like you have any real solutions or know anything about clean energy tbh
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Oct 6, 2016 04:38
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Typo posted:a political party which promises to cap economic growth is not viable in electoral politics. are you trying to argue some no true scotsman thing with politicians
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Oct 6, 2016 04:38
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The Kingfish posted:The State is functionally controlled by a small number of wealthy interests. The majority of people don't vote because they recognize that they are disenfranchised.
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Oct 6, 2016 04:40
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cams posted:well poo poo, if there are no institutional paths to progress and the peoples are powerless, we should probably either kill ourselves and take up arms against our oppressors as anything else would be masturbatory whining. Obviously the people aren't powerless. They could grind the whole system to a halt if they wanted to.
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Oct 6, 2016 04:42
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cams posted:huh we should probably pay attention to the policies they propose and support the ones that promote progressive policies So let me get this straight The Socialist's solution to current environmental issues is basically to stop economic growth, a vastly unpopular political stance with just about everybody who exists on earth today And this is suppose to be a democratic system
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Oct 6, 2016 04:44
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Typo posted:stop economic growth, a vastly unpopular political stance with just about everybody who exists on earth today
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Oct 6, 2016 04:45
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The Kingfish posted:The State is functionally controlled by a small number of wealthy interests. The majority of people don't vote because they recognize that they are disenfranchised. The impact of consumers is completely overestimated and the power of the consumer classes is undemocratic regardless. Private institutions are authoritarian by definition. Said by someone who doesn't understand what it might be like to not have thousands of companies fawning over your dollars. Honestly it's not always a good thing but it's power and it's real and people like the Waltons spend time thinking about the wishes of people poorer than you (and their competitors) and it might be a bit easier to ignore if, say, the Soviet Union didn't have a notably terrible consumer sector.
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Oct 6, 2016 04:45
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question completely unrelated to the current discussion, cause nobody cares about this thread can i call people stupid as gently caress?
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Oct 6, 2016 04:45
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cams posted:hahahahahaha ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ if you ever wonder why leftists do badly in politics this should be a good answer
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Oct 6, 2016 04:46
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dawg you just said the world's population supports "economic growth" you want me to entertain that premise?
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Oct 6, 2016 04:46
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cams posted:dawg you just said the world's population supports "economic growth" ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ somebody who has never ever talked to anyone outside of college students in north america/western europe
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Oct 6, 2016 04:47
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Typo posted:^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
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Oct 6, 2016 04:49
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