Star Wars: Millenial Trash Discussion Station

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Vegg220: Sep 2, 2016; by 2017 exmarx

Schwarzwald posted:

Sure, knock yourself out.

For what it's worth I don't think the films are a "subversive deconstruction," but merely a story about good people making bad decisions and the consequences.

Tezzor posted:

Most sane people realize the Star Wars prequels are bad. However, there are two main reasons the prequels are, allegedly, secretly good. Before we get into details let's note that the main arguments as to their secret goodness are not centrally predicated on acting, dialogue, characterization or the other things that make you feel things in a theater, but rather, "subtext,� which is a thing that while indistinguishable from �something not in the film which I have imagined into existence� is nonetheless real, for reasons. According to this interpretation, the fact the central conflict is between armies of generic drones nobody cares about and the Jedi act like stupid weirdo dicks are not failings of the films to be written to connect on an emotional level, but rather their secret greatest strength. To summarize, here are the primary smart subtexts hidden in the film:

1) Droid slavery/clone slavery/the horror of war between two armies of interchangeable cartoon characters. These poor creatures are created just to die in a war that does not benefit them.

2) The idea that the Jedi are bad guys, or "corrupt," etc. Their alleged complicity in 1) is a major part of this. A lot of overwrought terminology is used to make this point: �warmongering,� �doctrinaire,� �cultists,� �child abductors.� The fall of Anakin was allegedly ultimately their fault. Sentences by the living embodiment of a bubble pipe like "The Jedi were betrayed by their flawed ideology" are bandied about regularly.

There is no such thing as an invalid reading of a film, so if you�ve convinced yourself of this then there�s not a lot I can do. However, If you believe this is true and was the plan or was in any way intentional you are grasping and don't know what you're talking about. I listened to both commentary tracks on all three prequel films, which include everyone of any import on the films, constituting nearly 14 hours of my mortal life; not because I care particularly about defending the true intentions of George Lucas, but rather because it demonstrates yet another thing he failed at and because I so hate these pretentious dorko cretins and how they piss in my mouth and tell me it's raining.

To be fair and lay my cards on table early, here are the sum total of the statements in support of either subtext #1 or #2 to be found in all 14 hours of prequel commentary track:

1. In the Attack of the Clones commentary track, Lucas says the Jedi Order was arrogant to think that they know everything because in this case a cafe owner knows more about the assassin's dart than they do.
2. That's it.

Yep, that's it. Zero statements from George about the horror of slave war. Zero statements from anyone using terms like "doctrinaire traitorous theocrats" or "child soldiers." Zero statements from animators about how the battle droids were sympathetic. Zero lines from Temura Morrison or anyone else about how the clones were tragic figures.

Here are statements in opposition to the thesis. They are collected from notes so forgive the fact that they are a tad disjointed:

1. On general moral greys:

George says at least a dozen times that the Jedi in these films are "the good guys," "heroes," or "the guardians of peace and justice," in many contexts. He also repeatedly and in no uncertain terms calls Palpatine, the Trade Federation and Separatists and their leaders "bad guys," "evil," and so on.

The lead producer/horrible suckass Rick McCallum repeatedly echoes him (shocker) as does Ben Burtt, the editor. No one expresses any dissenting opinion at any point.

ILM Visual Effects supervisor Pablo Helman says George made it clear to the staff that there were good guys and bad guys in these films.

2. On The Tragedy of the Battle Droids.

Prequel apologists often say that the fate of the battle droids is secret tragedy, and not comic relief. The first time we see them, George says it's important to establish that the battle droids are goofy and useless.

But what about R2 and 3PO? We like them. Don't they prove droids are good? Let's ask Lucas from the first TPM commentary track: "I like technology, I use technology, but at the same time I understand the failings of technology. You can�t rely on technology for everything so I have this dual nature in the movies: the friendly human good technology of Artoo and Threepio and the evil technology of the battle droids."

3. On the horrors of Child Slavery:

I've caught a lot of poo poo from prequel apologists for saying that Anakin's situation in Ep. 1 does not seem really all that bad, because it's Child Slavery and I am allegedly a Horrible Sociopath. Let's check.

On the 1st commentary track of The Phantom Menace, Wyatt Chiang says "Watto really cares about Anakin." In the second commentary track, he expands: "Watto is a sympathetic character. George described him as a shifty character, but then later in the script George gave him layers of depth and sympathy for Anakin."

Lucas: (ep 2) "Watto was an interesting character. Seeing him was like seeing an old teacher from high school."

4. On The Evil Of Taking Anakin / taking Anakin but not his mother:

Lucas says "it�s Ani's choice" to go.

Lucas originally wanted Shmi to go with Anakin but realized that narratively he had to go his own way.

Lucas says Anakin's mother realized that his only chance for him to have a life was to become a Jedi.

Jake Lloyd: "The Jedi are the protectors he loves. He wants the jedi to come and rescue him and they do so that's kind of a dream come true."

5. On The Jedi Council / Republic as Bad Guys

Some prequel apologists say that Obi-Wan saying things like "this weapon is your life" is evidence that the Jedi are warmongering hypocrites. George says it's there as a joke about how Jedis lose their lightsabers all the time.

Lucas: "The Jedi are having trouble keeping peace and justice through the galaxy. They're not an army, they're a police force and diplomatic corps. When the Republic came into being they basically ended all wars [through democratic representation.]"

Lucas actually undermines one of the biggest lines used by prequel apologists to claim the Jedi are deeply flawed. He explains that Yoda saying "arrogance is a trait of Jedi" is directed as a knock on Obi-Wan after Obi-Wan was complaining about Anakin's arrogance; to keep him humble and remind him that he too might be arrogant. There is no indication Lucas meant this line as a condemnation of all Jedi.

Interestingly, nobody on the commentary tracks on RotS says anything over the Jedi talking about how they may need to remove Palpatine from office in Ep 3. No "here we see an Evil Theocratic Coup D'etat taking form here."

6. On Secret Dark Side User Mace Windu

I got timecodes on these because they couldn't be more explicit.

Samuel Jackson: (TPM second commentary track, 1:34:30) "In the Jedi Council he's one of the wizened people. I think it's important that you have people that are able to analyse and look at things kind of dispassionately, in a way that he does, that uses reason...and he has this sense of right and wrong, you know, there's no cloudy space, it's very cut and dried for him."

Jackson (AotC second commentary track, 4:45:) "I think Mace is a well thought out character, who has has the trust of a lot of people throughout the universe. It's important to have characters that people can look at and see that they've made a decision to be right. Now we have a lot of anti-heroes, I've played a lot of them, but there's something to be said for the pure, unadulterated good guy."

Jackson (AotC second commentary track, 1:21:00) "Mace has seen a lot, and has to understand a LOT of different things about what is and is not going on around him, and the disturbances in the Force, and trying to decipher what they are, and what they mean to the greater good of everyone, and not just his specific group of people."

7. On The Horrors of Clone Slavery

Original plan for Boba Fett was to make him a runaway clone. This was changed. So they originally had a rebel clone storyline but actually removed it.

8. On Anakin's motivation / who's responsible for Anakin being evil

Prequel apologists say that the Jedi are responsible for Anakin's fall by denying him a romantic relationship. Lucas says repeatedly that these are Anakin's choices and he is motivated to gain power. At no point does anyone suggest the Jedi were even somewhat culpable. I really suggest that anyone who doubts this listens to the commentary tracks. It is clear as loving summer�s day.

Lucas: Anakin is dealing with his inability to deal with his emotions, Anakin is unwilling to accept Jedi codes. He would have been trained to love people but to not be attached to them. Jedi have clear minds but not attachments.

Lucas: "What's he's REALLY upset with is he doesn't have enough power. He's greedy, he wants power in order to control things. It also shows his jealousy and anger at Obi Wan...and blaming everyone else for his inability to be as powerful as he wants, it mirrors Dooku. He says he will be the most powerful jedi ever, Dooku says he's more powerful than any Jedi."

Lucas says that Anakin's fall is his own fault because he was "unable to let go." Contradicting Yoda, Lucas says that the dark side is "more powerful," but doesn't allow change, and is "your undoing."

Hayden Christensen says Anakin failed his mom. He doesn't blame anyone else.

Lucas: "It is the fear of losing someone he loves which is the flip side of greed, like the Emperor. But it's going against the fates and what is natural. Once he gets some power, he wants more and more power, and power corrupts."

Lucas: "Anakin thinks with the dark side he has access to new powers. But he knows in essence that that's probably wrong."

Lucas: "Anakin was more into getting more power than he was into saving [Padme.]"

9. On the Dark Side growing stronger / Jedi getting weaker.

Prequel apologists claim in essence that this is a result of 10 Mind Blowing Reasons You Didn't Realize the Jedi Were Using The Dark Side. Lucas's explanation at 58:00 in the second AotC commentary track is extremely unclear as to why specifically the Dark Side is growing stronger, but is clear that it is something happening irrespective of the Jedi's actions. At any rate, at no point does anyone say the Jedi are really using the Dark Side or are making it stronger.

10. On Dooku / the Separatists as secret good guys

Christopher Lee: "[Dooku] represents the dark side...at some period he was disillusioned with whole conception of the Jedi and wanted more power."

Lee: "This is what the Separatists are aiming for, starting a war, destroying the Jedi and imposing their rule."

According to Lucas, Dooku talking sympathetically to Obi-Wan when he's captured and trying to tell him that the Republic is run by a Sith Lord is a trick to get Obi-Wan to join the Sith, to help him get rid of Sidious and take over.

This doesn't really fit anywhere else, so: To explain why Dooku doesn't do anything to save his own skin at the beginning of RotS, some prequel apologists say Dooku was in on the plan of getting murdered to help turn Anakin evil. Lucas specifically says that Dooku was not aware of this plan.

11. On "heroes on both sides"

This isn't really a rebuttal, but I had to note it because it made me laugh so hard. This is at the beginning of the second commentary track of Revenge of the Sith, so to this point I had heard 5 commentary tracks and in them hours of incredible suckass Rick McCallum praising every decision Lucas made. Even that man said this:

McCallum: (1:10) "This is one of the classic moments...I never understood George when he said there were heroes on both sides. We talked about it quite a bit and he gave me a very complicated and quite profound answer...but I never bought it, I never understood why there are heroes on both sides."

Now, I know the go-to rebuttal to all of this. It goes like: "something something death of the author, when it is convenient to my argument, otherwise I will happily talk all about how something is good because it was intentional." Let me quickly make two points. One is that, regardless, this should be the end of any claims that Lucas "intentionally" created a morally complicated film. He intended to make a film with clear and unquestionable shades of moral black and white and clear delineations between good guys and bad guys, one that paid literally zero attention to questions of the ethics of anything that was going on. And two, the question arises, if this is the case, why are the Jedi stupid dicks, why does nobody care about the morality of taking small children or of senseless war, why are our heroes blind irrational chumps who act like total imbeciles? Even if you believe all of these things are still true and worth analyzing as unintentional emergent phenomena, the fact remains that they occurred because the author failed completely in what he was attempting - and in fact, the more you claim to see all these grim undertones and moral greys, the more you acknowledge that failure.

Saying that the Star Wars prequels are morally complicated films is like saying Plan 9 from Outer Space is a comedy. It is possible to read it that way, but that was never the intent. It came out that way because the creator was incompetent at what he was trying to do.

# ? Oct 6, 2016 02:01

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# ? May 14, 2024 03:18

Bongo Bill: Jan 17, 2012

Vegg220 posted:

Yes. George Lucas. He never notes or cares even a bit about the terrible terrible battle droid suffering happening right before our very eyes, specifically claims that they are substantively different from the good droids we like, and generally writes and directs them as comical, irrelevant and incompetent lightsaber targets while Sarah McLaughlin signs "The Arms of an Angel" in the heads of dudes with prodromal schizophrenia

"We don't serve their kind here." - a character in movie that does not depict racism

# ? Oct 6, 2016 02:10

Vegg220: Sep 2, 2016; by 2017 exmarx

That isn't even comprehensive. There are other examples. You remember in Revenge of the Sith where Anakin is talking to Yoda and he's sitting in the shadows looking sweaty and tormented and Yoda can't tell that he's frustrated and scared and hiding something even by looking at the dude, let alone using his magic powers that detect that sort of thing almost automatically? And how he's telling Anakin to just give up on emotional connections? This scene is supposed to make Yoda look bad, right? Out of touch and emotionally empty and incompetent? Nope! On the commentary track they play up how wise Yoda is during this scene, and how his wisdom is helping Anakin. That may be difficult to believe but I assure you that it is the truth.

# ? Oct 6, 2016 02:12

Vegg220: Sep 2, 2016; by 2017 exmarx

Bongo Bill posted:

"We don't serve their kind here." - a character in movie that does not depict racism

A character in a movie that contains no battle droids which are apparently substantively different and was released 22 years prior

# ? Oct 6, 2016 02:13

Ferrinus: Jun 19, 2003; i'm finding this quite easy, i guess in part because i'm a fast type but also because i have a coherent mental model of the world

We've long since established that you were tricked by the commentary track.

# ? Oct 6, 2016 02:14

Vegg220: Sep 2, 2016; by 2017 exmarx

Ferrinus posted:

We've long since established that you were tricked by the commentary track.

I know your position re: how the devil buried the dinosaur bones to trick me into believing in godless science but I'm afraid the evidence, Satan-tainted as it allegedly is, is simply far too compelling

# ? Oct 6, 2016 02:17

Bongo Bill: Jan 17, 2012

I kind of think the films speak for themselves, though.

# ? Oct 6, 2016 02:20

Serf: May 5, 2011

Vegg220 posted:

A character in a movie that contains no battle droids which are apparently substantively different and was released 22 years prior

This statement has nothing to do with the scene in question.

# ? Oct 6, 2016 02:21

Ferrinus: Jun 19, 2003; i'm finding this quite easy, i guess in part because i'm a fast type but also because i have a coherent mental model of the world

Vegg220 posted:

I know your position re: how the devil buried the dinosaur bones to trick me into believing in godless science but I'm afraid the evidence, Satan-tainted as it allegedly is, is simply far too compelling

The evidence you've assembled suggests that Lucas lied about the contents of his films. For instance, Yoda manifestly doesn't help Anakin in that scene you mentioned, so there's a contradiction between the commentary and the movie (unless you've misreported one or the other).

# ? Oct 6, 2016 02:27

Vegg220: Sep 2, 2016; by 2017 exmarx

Serf posted:

This statement has nothing to do with the scene in question.

I'm sorry the pretend bartender in the lovely cantina for murderous criminals was prejudiced against your people

# ? Oct 6, 2016 02:31

Serf: May 5, 2011

Vegg220 posted:

I'm sorry the pretend bartender in the lovely cantina for murderous criminals was prejudiced against your people

This... isn't even an argument. Although you admit that droids are people, so I guess that's the end of that.

# ? Oct 6, 2016 02:33

Blood Boils: Dec 27, 2006; Its not an S, on my planet it means QUIPS

rear end Catchcum posted:

I even think some of the blasters may be people tbh.

That's because you don't seem to read very well, movies nor forum posts. Within the context of star wars, the personhood of various machines is demonstrated through speech and emotion - the imperial dustbuster-rc's fear of :wookie:

, Jabba's door camera/sensor laughing at 3PO and R2D2, 3PO's exasperation in conversation the Falcon etc.

Do the blasters and lazerswords do these things? No, at least as far as we've seen so far. The original comic run (the one with the cowboy rabbits and telepathic gerbils) had a sentient talking bomb who desired to explode (and used trickery to achieve this goal)!

The torture and training orbs could be people, but perhaps they are simply tool-weapons, it's up to you.

# ? Oct 6, 2016 02:37

Vegg220: Sep 2, 2016; by 2017 exmarx

Ferrinus posted:

The evidence you've assembled suggests that Lucas lied about the contents of his films. For instance, Yoda manifestly doesn't help Anakin in that scene you mentioned, so there's a contradiction between the commentary and the movie (unless you've misreported one or the other).

Lucas didn't lie about the contents of his films. There is a contradiction between the commentary and the movie. This contradiction is not because Lucas and everyone else were directed to lie to trick us. It was because he had no loving idea what he was doing.

# ? Oct 6, 2016 02:38

anglachel: May 28, 2012

Vegg220 posted:

That isn't even comprehensive. There are other examples. You remember in Revenge of the Sith where Anakin is talking to Yoda and he's sitting in the shadows looking sweaty and tormented and Yoda can't tell that he's frustrated and scared and hiding something even by looking at the dude, let alone using his magic powers that detect that sort of thing almost automatically? And how he's telling Anakin to just give up on emotional connections? This scene is supposed to make Yoda look bad, right? Out of touch and emotionally empty and incompetent? Nope! On the commentary track they play up how wise Yoda is during this scene, and how his wisdom is helping Anakin. That may be difficult to believe but I assure you that it is the truth.

Those are wise statements. And he is helping him the crux of the decision he needs to make by laying bare the expectations that will lay before Anakin if he continues as a Jedi.

# ? Oct 6, 2016 02:43

Vegg220: Sep 2, 2016; by 2017 exmarx

Serf posted:

This... isn't even an argument. Although you admit that droids are people, so I guess that's the end of that.

I don't care one way or another about the personhood of pretend robo-redshirts as it is not a moral quandary that exists anywhere in the films and is therefore irrelevant to their quality, and I encourage everyone reading this who is as baffled at the insanity as I am to do the same and not engage this delirium on its own terms because it's all some Calvinball bullshit

# ? Oct 6, 2016 02:43

Maxwell Lord: Dec 12, 2008; I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.; Grimey Drawer

"I find I lie almost constantly when talking about my work" - Terry Gilliam

# ? Oct 6, 2016 02:47

Serf: May 5, 2011

Vegg220 posted:

I don't care one way or another about the personhood of pretend robo-redshirts as it is not a moral quandary that exists anywhere in the films and is therefore irrelevant to their quality, and I encourage everyone reading this who is as baffled at the insanity as I am to do the same and not engage this delirium on its own terms because it's all some Calvinball bullshit

The fact that no one in the galaxy seems to recognize that droids are a sentient species of slaves is supposed to be recognized by the audience as hosed up, Tezzor. This theme can be seen across every single movie, even TFA. Literal children are capable of understanding this.

# ? Oct 6, 2016 02:47

UmOk: Aug 3, 2003

Dude, Veggzzor, what is wrong with you? How can you justify spending so much time and money on something you supposedly hate?

There are things that I really don't like. Know what I do? Don't obsess over them.

You are a closet prequel lover.

# ? Oct 6, 2016 02:49

Ferrinus: Jun 19, 2003; i'm finding this quite easy, i guess in part because i'm a fast type but also because i have a coherent mental model of the world

Vegg220 posted:

Lucas didn't lie about the contents of his films. There is a contradiction between the commentary and the movie. This contradiction is not because Lucas and everyone else were directed to lie to trick us. It was because he had no loving idea what he was doing.

But you agree that, in the movie, Yoda's counsel is of no help to Anakin. So it must be that you've been lied to by Lucas, or we've been lied to by you (as in, your description of the commentary is misleading), or the Lucasfilm team managed to randomly make the same mistake over and over again for six-odd hours' worth of movie.

# ? Oct 6, 2016 02:49

Vegg220: Sep 2, 2016; by 2017 exmarx

UmOk posted:

Dude, Veggzzor, what is wrong with you? How can you justify spending so much time and money on something you supposedly hate?

There are things that I really don't like. Know what I do? Don't obsess over them.

You are a closet prequel lover.

I enjoy hating things

# ? Oct 6, 2016 02:51

Kazzah: Jul 15, 2011; Formerly known as
Krazyface; Hair Elf

I wish I could find such an infinity of entertainment in the prequels as Tezzor does.

# ? Oct 6, 2016 02:51

Barudak: May 7, 2007

Krazyface posted:

I wish I could find such an infinity of entertainment in the prequels as Tezzor does.

You'd never need another film, you'd be like a bodhisattva.

"How can their be contradiction in both the film and in the character?" he asked. And they were enlightened.

# ? Oct 6, 2016 02:55

Blood Boils: Dec 27, 2006; Its not an S, on my planet it means QUIPS

Tezzor do you consider yourself a star wars fan

# ? Oct 6, 2016 02:55

Vegg220: Sep 2, 2016; by 2017 exmarx

Ferrinus posted:

But you agree that, in the movie, Yoda's counsel is of no help to Anakin. So it must be that you've been lied to by Lucas, or we've been lied to by you (as in, your description of the commentary is misleading), or the Lucasfilm team managed to randomly make the same mistake over and over again for six-odd hours' worth of movie.

Yoda's counsel would have been helpful, if Anakin had listened. He was right on points; telling him to give up connection to people seems weird and wrong to you because you are a normal human being and not a divorced billionaire toy business owner humping a dumb idea he had all the way to the bottom of the sea . Everything else you're saying is simply reiterating that there is some contradiction there, which I don't deny. It wasn't a random mistake. It was the result of all the stupid decisions up to that point, including but not limited to the lazy hackneyed "love is forbidden" plotline and needing nobody to see obvious poo poo in front of their face lest it blow up the plot held together with particularly sugary diabetic piss

Vegg220 fucked around with this message at 03:06 on Oct 6, 2016

# ? Oct 6, 2016 03:01

homullus: Mar 27, 2009

Vegg220 posted:

Yoda's counsel would have been helpful, if Anakin had listened. He was right on points; telling him to give up connection to people seems weird and wrong to you because you are a normal human being and not a divorced billionaire toy business owner humping a dumb idea he had all the way to the bottom of the sea . Everything else you're saying is simply reiterating that there is some contradiction there, which I don't deny. It wasn't a random mistake. It was the result of all the stupid decisions up to that point, including but not limited to the lazy hackneyed "love is forbidden" plotline and needing nobody to see obvious poo poo in front of their face lest it blow up the plot help together with particularly sugary diabetic piss

It is exactly as lazy as "we have to save the woman from the bad guy and stop him from doing a bad thing"

# ? Oct 6, 2016 03:05

Phi230: Feb 2, 2016; by Fluffdaddy

homullus posted:

Ok, real question -- what would that corruption look like? Because to me, I think corruption is exactly what happened in the prequels. He can't just be a cop on the take and turn into a black metal killing machine.

I think sideous being more straight up about it would've gone a long way toward corruption.

"Hey anakin look at all this cool poo poo you can do with the dark side"

"fuckin' nice mate"

"i now pronounce you vader"

"thanks dude"

and instead of like broodingly killing all the poo poo, do it with like glee. Anakin becomes vader and vader is powerful and imposing and does cruel poo poo to inspire fear rather than just being a lapdog.

Like have him do something bad and realize that he gets respect from it so he starts craving it or something.

# ? Oct 6, 2016 03:07

Vegg220: Sep 2, 2016; by 2017 exmarx

Black Bones posted:

Tezzor do you consider yourself a star wars fan

I really really enjoy some of the films, one of the TV shows, most of the videogames and a handful of the earlier novels. So in this sense, yes. In terms of volume, however, no. Star Wars is mostly complete poo poo by volume and I feel no compulsion to try to like something because it has the Star Wars logo on it. As I said earlier, it's the Guy Fieri Ate Here sticker of fiction

# ? Oct 6, 2016 03:09

Ferrinus: Jun 19, 2003; i'm finding this quite easy, i guess in part because i'm a fast type but also because i have a coherent mental model of the world

Vegg220 posted:

Yoda's counsel would have been helpful, if Anakin had listened. He was right on points; telling him to give up connection to people seems weird and wrong to you because you are a normal human being and not a divorced billionaire toy business owner humping a dumb idea he had all the way to the bottom of the sea . Everything else you're saying is simply reiterating that there is some contradiction there, which I don't deny. It wasn't a random mistake. It was the result of all the stupid decisions up to that point, including but not limited to the lazy hackneyed "love is forbidden" plotline and needing nobody to see obvious poo poo in front of their face lest it blow up the plot held together with particularly sugary diabetic piss

Okay so while the commentary says Yoda's advice was good, the movie consistently shows that it was bad. I say consistently because of course the advice not only looks unconvincing in that one scene but does not prevent Anakin from going psycho.

# ? Oct 6, 2016 03:11

Kly: Aug 8, 2003

Vegg220 posted:

I listened to both commentary tracks on every film and took notes.

# ? Oct 6, 2016 03:18

Vegg220: Sep 2, 2016; by 2017 exmarx

Phi230 posted:

I think sideous being more straight up about it would've gone a long way toward corruption.

"Hey anakin look at all this cool poo poo you can do with the dark side"

"fuckin' nice mate"

"i now pronounce you vader"

"thanks dude"

and instead of like broodingly killing all the poo poo, do it with like glee. Anakin becomes vader and vader is powerful and imposing and does cruel poo poo to inspire fear rather than just being a lapdog.

Like have him do something bad and realize that he gets respect from it so he starts craving it or something.

I look at Breaking Bad and compare it to the prequels. Is this fair? Nope. But It really highlights a lot of the stupid ideas they chose. The first 1/3 of the series, Walter White is a mischievous pretween who puts a whoopie cushion on the teacher's chair, oh no!!! Then he's played by a guy they found at the bus station, and half the remaining series is dedicated to Gus Fring's visits to circuit court to get business licenses, health inspections, naturalization paperwork, etc. Then Walter White breaks bad because a bad leprechaun told him he would get a pot of gold he never gets and he immediately jumps from mild-mannered teacher to raving mass murderer in the span of 30 seconds as he poisons a bunch of kids for laughs. This show is on Nick Jr.

# ? Oct 6, 2016 03:19

Bongo Bill: Jan 17, 2012

The things that Yoda says to Anakin are good advice in the abstract, but they are useless and discouraging to the person sitting in front of him and begging for help. So the character's words are wise and his actions are foolish.

# ? Oct 6, 2016 03:22

Vegg220: Sep 2, 2016; by 2017 exmarx

Ferrinus posted:

Okay so while the commentary says Yoda's advice was good, the movie consistently shows that it was bad. I say consistently because of course the advice not only looks unconvincing in that one scene but does not prevent Anakin from going psycho.

Yes. Lucas had no loving idea what he is doing. If you think that this is hard to believe I ask why you think "everybody lied to trick us" is more plausible

# ? Oct 6, 2016 03:23

Bongo Bill: Jan 17, 2012

Vegg220 posted:

Yes. Lucas had no loving idea what he is doing. If you think that this is hard to believe I ask why you think "everybody lied to trick us" is more plausible

Who was speaking in the commentary track? Surely not everybody.

# ? Oct 6, 2016 03:23

Vegg220: Sep 2, 2016; by 2017 exmarx

Bongo Bill posted:

Who was speaking in the commentary track? Surely not everybody.

Everybody involved in the film even a little bit.

# ? Oct 6, 2016 03:26

Bongo Bill: Jan 17, 2012

Vegg220 posted:

Everybody involved in the film even a little bit.

That sounds like one hell of a commentary track.

# ? Oct 6, 2016 03:28

Ferrinus: Jun 19, 2003; i'm finding this quite easy, i guess in part because i'm a fast type but also because i have a coherent mental model of the world

Vegg220 posted:

Yes. Lucas had no loving idea what he is doing. If you think that this is hard to believe I ask why you think "everybody lied to trick us" is more plausible

It's more plausible that he was lying than that he and his team did the exact opposite of what he said they did each and every time.

Like, there's a difference between something being inept and something being the strict inverse of what you'd expect. Right? If you watched the commentary and it said of TPM "in this scene, Maul kills both Qui Gon and Obi Wan" it would not be logical to conclude that they tried their hardest to film a scene in which Obi Wan died but accidentally filmed a scene in which he lived.

# ? Oct 6, 2016 03:48

Lampsacus: Oct 21, 2008

A simulation of the Star Wars thread is run for a thousand years.

# ? Oct 6, 2016 04:29

Bongo Bill: Jan 17, 2012

Lampsacus posted:

A simulation of the Star Wars thread is run for a thousand years.

Who wins?

# ? Oct 6, 2016 04:31

Maxwell Lord: Dec 12, 2008; I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.; Grimey Drawer

Vegg220 posted:

Yoda's counsel would have been helpful, if Anakin had listened. He was right on points; telling him to give up connection to people seems weird and wrong to you because you are a normal human being and not a divorced billionaire toy business owner humping a dumb idea he had all the way to the bottom of the sea . Everything else you're saying is simply reiterating that there is some contradiction there, which I don't deny. It wasn't a random mistake. It was the result of all the stupid decisions up to that point, including but not limited to the lazy hackneyed "love is forbidden" plotline and needing nobody to see obvious poo poo in front of their face lest it blow up the plot held together with particularly sugary diabetic piss

It's the same as in Night of the Living Dead. Harry (I think that's the rear end in a top hat's name) is right that the cellar is the safest place, but it doesn't matter that he's right because he's too much of an rear end in a top hat to present his case. And the same happens in Dawn of the Dead- the government spokespeople are right as to what's happening and how the problem needs to be contained, but nobody trusts them because their men are killing innocent people in "rescue" operations.

Yoda has a point, if you buy into the religion of the Force, which is similar to Buddhism- all desires and connections are fleeting and we shouldn't cling to them. But he can't articulate this properly to Anakin, because Anakin can't really tell him what's wrong, because the Jedi are assholes about not letting people see their parents or get married.

It's not that there isn't truth to his counsel. But he repeats it the same way a priest might say "well, the Lord works in mysterious ways" to a couple who have just lost their child. It's glib and doesn't acknowledge the importance people's emotions have in situations like that. It's not what they need to hear. Anakin needs more than homilies. He needs help.

And look who comes offering it.

Maxwell Lord fucked around with this message at 04:39 on Oct 6, 2016

# ? Oct 6, 2016 04:36

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# ? May 14, 2024 03:18

Vegg220: Sep 2, 2016; by 2017 exmarx

Ferrinus posted:

It's more plausible that he was lying than that he and his team did the exact opposite of what he said they did each and every time.

Like, there's a difference between something being inept and something being the strict inverse of what you'd expect. Right? If you watched the commentary and it said of TPM "in this scene, Maul kills both Qui Gon and Obi Wan" it would not be logical to conclude that they tried their hardest to film a scene in which Obi Wan died but accidentally filmed a scene in which he lived.

This is pathetic grasping. You should be ashamed of yourself.

# ? Oct 6, 2016 04:38

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