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Cobbsprite posted:My local meta is really light on turrets, so I throw VI and Stealth Device to increase my evasion and reposition strength. Wasn't there a discussion about AT vs. SD? I think AT might be straight up better? I don't have data for that, though.
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Oct 7, 2016 21:19
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Finster Dexter posted:Wasn't there a discussion about AT vs. SD? I think AT might be straight up better? I don't have data for that, though. It is when turrets exist. In a low-turret meta it's a lot less likely to trigger. I've been meaning to try ATs Sensor Jammer Fearlessness APT Guri. Fearlessness seems like it could be a real boon for her.
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Oct 7, 2016 21:32
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Fearlessness is pretty fun on brobots. If you miss the range 1 primary shot, you're not getting a followup HLC shot anyway on that same target with IG-88Bs ability.
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Oct 7, 2016 21:46
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thespaceinvader posted:It is when turrets exist. In a low-turret meta it's a lot less likely to trigger. The R3 advantage is still significantly better than what SD will get you on most ships that don't have a million defensive modification tools. SD's value goes up the more modified your green dice already are and one of the best green dice modifier abilities is AT so it's still a bad upgrade.
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Oct 7, 2016 21:47
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canyoneer posted:Fearlessness is pretty fun on brobots. If you miss the range 1 primary shot, you're not getting a followup HLC shot anyway on that same target with IG-88Bs ability. Fearless Autoblaster Bros is something I really want to try, but I don't actually own any IGGies.
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Oct 7, 2016 21:49
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So, what are lists that TIE/x7 lists are going to struggle against? TLT shenanigans?
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Oct 7, 2016 23:02
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Finster Dexter posted:So, what are lists that TIE/x7 lists are going to struggle against? TLT shenanigans? TLTs and big turrets in general. Zuckuss/4-LOM party busses.
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Oct 7, 2016 23:11
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Maybe Dash/Norra? Random rules questions: 1. Does Maneuvering Fins allow you to reveal a white bank while stressed and then move the dial to a red turn without incurring the "revealed a red maneuver while stressed" penalty of having your opponent select a maneuver? (The wording in the rules is "If a stressed ship reveals a red maneuver") 2. Two hellbuses (or lambda shuttles) are facing each other and bumped last turn. They both perform a 0-maneuver. Are they bumped for that turn? I assume they WILL be bumped if one of them performs a 1-straight or something similar. Finster Dexter fucked around with this message at 23:29 on Oct 7, 2016 |
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Oct 7, 2016 23:15
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1) Stressed ships cannot execute red maneuvers (unless they have the Hera crew) 2) Ships that are in base contact remain in base contact if they reveal a 0-stop maneuver. This is also true when using Inertial Dampeners.
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Oct 7, 2016 23:31
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So then a ship that is currently bumping and reveals a 0-stop (or pops ID) loses its action step? Oh, I also just realized I read Maneuvering Fins wrong, it only allows turn-to-bank conversion.
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Oct 7, 2016 23:33
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Currently every single ship capable of doing that will be stressed by executing a red maneuver. That said, there's nothing that says that base contact prevents actions, it's when your "ship or maneuver template overlap another ship", and neither of those things is technically true. See also: being able to perform free actions from pilots like Cracken, or upgrades like Isard. If you Baffle the stress with the shuttle, you could perform an action.
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Oct 7, 2016 23:35
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An interesting case is with a ship using advanced sensors. If you are beginning the turn bumped and unstressed, you can use advanced sensors to take your action before revealing the 0 stop.
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Oct 7, 2016 23:46
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Took this to local gaming night and went 4-2. The games I lost were one where I forgot to decloak Talonbane for 3 turns running and another where my opponent dropped a rigged cargo chute on Fenn Rau whilst he had a red move dialed in, so he died that turn. I think its a strong list, although recon specialist on Manaroo might be over kill. Talonbane Cobra (33) Kihraxz Fighter (28), Attanni Mindlink (1), Cloaking Device (2), Stygium Particle Accelerator (2) Fenn Rau (34) Protectorate Starfighter (28), Attanni Mindlink (1), Concord Dawn Protector (1), Shield Upgrade (4) Manaroo (31) JumpMaster 5000 (27), Attanni Mindlink (1), Recon Specialist (3)
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Oct 8, 2016 00:06
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dogsarentdangerous posted:Took this to local gaming night and went 4-2. The games I lost were one where I forgot to decloak Talonbane for 3 turns running and another where my opponent dropped a rigged cargo chute on Fenn Rau whilst he had a red move dialed in, so he died that turn. I think its a strong list, although recon specialist on Manaroo might be over kill. With mindlink it might be. I'd be inclined to look at K4 instead.
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Oct 8, 2016 00:08
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Finster Dexter posted:What are you putting on Guri? AT and Fearlessness? Lonewolf, AT, Sensor Jammer ridiculously hard to kill
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Oct 8, 2016 00:45
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dogsarentdangerous posted:where my opponent dropped a rigged cargo chute on Fenn Rau whilst he had a red move dialed in, so he died that turn. FFG can't FAQ this bullshit fast enough.
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Oct 8, 2016 01:45
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hoiyes posted:FFG can't FAQ this bullshit fast enough. I mentioned that this interaction would create a lot of negative experiences and really doesn't do anything to the ships that are a problem(because most of the power ships in the game never do red maneuvers anyway and if they do they have hera). The response I got from one of the regulars was that this was possible before and FFG intended it to be that way. It was, in fact, possible but took about five different things to go right that it would never really happen in a real game. I'm not sure FFG should be harming ships that need to take red maneuvers and care about taking them.
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Oct 8, 2016 02:01
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Why the gently caress would you dial in a red move if you know they have the chute and you're in position to get nailed by it between planning and activation? On the situational awareness scale this is like a four or five out of ten.
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Oct 8, 2016 04:16
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 If that doesn't make you excited I don't know what will
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Oct 8, 2016 04:18
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canyoneer posted:
Livin' the fenn rau dream.
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Oct 8, 2016 04:31
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ConfusedUs posted:Why the gently caress would you dial in a red move if you know they have the chute and you're in position to get nailed by it between planning and activation? No one actually takes bombs but if your opponent takes Proton Bombs and you shove your A-wings behind that ship, you deserve whatever you get.
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Oct 8, 2016 04:58
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Panzeh posted:The R3 advantage is still significantly better than what SD will get you on most ships that don't have a million defensive modification tools. I run it the way I do because if I'm putting Stealth Device on something, it's because it's already loaded with green dice modifications and I'm making it even tougher to hit. I usually take it when I'm making a tough bastard to hit into a loving tough bastard to hit. That means Soontir Fel, Omega Leader, x7 Defenders. The only other reason I take it is when I WANT my opponent to tackle someone easier to focus-fire, instead. I play against people that operate on "feel" more than numbers. Autothrusters feel aggravating, so they'll shoot something with them so the ship dies. Stealth Device makes that ship feel harder to hit, so they'll pick someone else to attack instead. Playing the players as much as the game.
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Oct 8, 2016 08:35
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ConfusedUs posted:Why the gently caress would you dial in a red move if you know they have the chute and you're in position to get nailed by it between planning and activation? I'm sorry. I don't know what else to say.
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Oct 8, 2016 10:18
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dogsarentdangerous posted:I'm sorry. I don't know what else to say. I mean, dialing in a red while your ship is in a spot to get garbage-chuted is probably only gonna happen to a given player once, but it's a pretty lovely GOTCHA moment that one time it happens.
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Oct 8, 2016 12:58
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Cobbsprite posted:I run it the way I do because if I'm putting Stealth Device on something, it's because it's already loaded with green dice modifications and I'm making it even tougher to hit. I usually take it when I'm making a tough bastard to hit into a loving tough bastard to hit. That means Soontir Fel, Omega Leader, x7 Defenders. The only other reason I take it is when I WANT my opponent to tackle someone easier to focus-fire, instead. I play against people that operate on "feel" more than numbers. Autothrusters feel aggravating, so they'll shoot something with them so the ship dies. Stealth Device makes that ship feel harder to hit, so they'll pick someone else to attack instead. Playing the players as much as the game. I imagine if you're playing with players like that and can manipulate their targeting priority like that, go wild. Typically, stealth device isn't worth it on X7 defenders, but sometimes you just got points laying around and not much else to do with your defender.
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Oct 8, 2016 14:03
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Panzeh posted:I imagine if you're playing with players like that and can manipulate their targeting priority like that, go wild. SD is strong on /x7 with Lone Wolf. That's nice. It's reasonable on others but tends to make them too expensive again. My alternative UKTC Empire list was RAC/VI/Vader/Gunner/Engine + Rexler/Lone Wolf/x7/Stealth. It's good. I've facetanked dengaroo at range 1 with Rexler, including shooting him in arc, and come out damage free... But I wanted to play something I painted. I may yet regret that decision.
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Oct 8, 2016 14:08
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Devlan Mud posted:I mean, dialing in a red while your ship is in a spot to get garbage-chuted is probably only gonna happen to a given player once, but it's a pretty lovely GOTCHA moment that one time it happens. Like I've said it before, but handing over your dial shouldn't be a gameable mechanic. It's in the game as a ruling on how to proceed when your opponent creates an irregular game state, much in the same way as if you knock a ship out of place it should be the opponent who gets the final say on where it goes. The thing is that when you set a red maneuver on an unstressed ship, you're not violating the rules, so the debris shouldn't have such punishing consequences. It's not a good or fun mechanic, even as the opponent setting the dial, you feel like a huge dick if you do the "right" move and 3 hard the opponents ship off the board. The enemy ship is already going to be at least double if not triple stressed, you don't need to add the ability to occasionally instakill ships off the board for your 1 point upgrade. I've heard whispers of incoming scum nerfs, I hope this is fixed along with the rest.
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Oct 8, 2016 20:11
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I'm on the side of 'git gud' here. If you're up the arse of a ship which can stress you with an action, don't dial a red. Certainly don't dial a red if you're in a position where any move will dump you off the board. I mean, it's broadly the same case as flying a big ship to a position where a 1 straight kills it but a hard 1 saves it when there are ionising things around and that's been something to bear in mind for what, 4 or 5 waves? thespaceinvader fucked around with this message at 21:31 on Oct 8, 2016 |
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Oct 8, 2016 21:24
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thespaceinvader posted:I'm on the side of 'git gud' here. Not really because they can literally dial in and act before you get to move and many ships with illicit slots have very flexible dials. It's not anywhere near the same thing. The ships it hurts are ships that probably don't need to be hurt anyway.
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Oct 8, 2016 21:34
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Doesn't make giving over your dial any less obnoxious. Even fixing that, it's by far the most poorly thought out upgrade yet because it's so lovely to place down. You dump one on a tie swarm and it's a goddamn fiddly catastrophe trying to place it. Also new Han + Kanan + new title is going to have fun dumping this on your ships on Turn1. It's fantastic on him vs a tie swarm. If you can put Han in a spot where the 3 Sloop debris hits their hard turns then the enemy can either turn in and get double stressed and eat crits next turn, or not turn in and have Han up their rear end.
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Oct 8, 2016 21:41
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hoiyes posted:Doesn't make giving over your dial any less obnoxious. The bolded bit is a much bigger issue IMO. It's difficult to work out, and yeah, it'll piss you off if you get it wrong. But so will dozens of things in this game, and you got over all of those too. It's by far less common than a lot of other much more negative experiences such as Dengaroo and Palpatine.
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Oct 8, 2016 21:53
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thespaceinvader posted:The bolded bit is a much bigger issue IMO. It's a less bad experience to gently caress over ships that have red maneuvers and care about them? It's not that simple to dodge- it's not like ions because ions take effect next turn and can be more planned for. I don't mind giving your opponent a dial as a punishment for dialing in an illegal maneuver, but being able to inflict a stess and penalize them for the crime of ending up in a place where the offending ship could possibly have maneuvered ahead and dropped next turn is kinda silly. Dengaroo and Palp are annoying, but they're not this.
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Oct 8, 2016 22:18
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These are almost the same arguments as when Boba Fett crew was announced. The sky didn't fall then. It's not going to fall now. It's just another dirty trick, one with niche use, and it's avoidable.
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Oct 8, 2016 22:35
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ConfusedUs posted:These are almost the same arguments as when Boba Fett crew was announced. It's not.. really the same as Boba Fett crew but hey, i'll play it out anyway, i'll just play ships that never do red maneuvers if this becomes a thing.
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Oct 8, 2016 22:36
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Panzeh posted:It's not.. really the same as Boba Fett crew but hey, i'll play it out anyway, i'll just play ships that never do red maneuvers if this becomes a thing. It's 100% within your power to not dial in a red when facing a chance that a ship will dump a debris on you. It's not within your power to avoid taking a crit. I'd say Fett is much more awkward here.
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Oct 8, 2016 22:43
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Panzeh posted:It's not.. really the same as Boba Fett crew but hey, i'll play it out anyway, i'll just play ships that never do red maneuvers if this becomes a thing. THE SKY IS FALLING. Seriously, how often do you actually use red manoeuvres? How carefully do you plan them when you do - I'd imagine pretty carefully, because unless you have AdvSens, or some way of taking actions when you do one, they're DANGEROUS ANYWAY. If not, maybe consider planning your reds a bit more carefully. This is just another thing you need to consider when setting that red on your dial. I'd personally say that you're a LOT more likely to be hosed over by the unexpected stress stopping you taking actions, and that that would happen a LOT more often, than by having dialled a red when you get it. Git gud isn't necessarily a helpful statement but... potentially big changes like this happen often, but in practice the situations concerned actually *occur* really, really infrequently - yeah, you remember them when they do, but you know what you need to do as a result? Learn from your experiences so they don't happen again. Learning how to be better at the game is a huge part of the game, this is no different from any other big potential change that's happened. Dengaroo and Palp are *infuriating*, far more so than this - because they're entirely out of your control This? Entirely within your control.
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Oct 8, 2016 22:57
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thespaceinvader posted:THE SKY IS FALLING. The ships that take red maneuvers tend to be swarm/jousty ships- you don't actually have to think that hard about whether you do a K-turn because the concept of a K-turn is that an unmodified shot is still better than no shot and an action. Most of the power ships do not take red maneuvers that actually matter in that regard, aside from IG-88s. Do I think it'll kill the game? Nah. It's a niche upgrade that's not going to see a ton of use, but to me, it just fucks over ships that don't really need that. It's like you can't criticize an FFG design decision any more without being called chicken little. I don't think dumping a debris and having it immediately take effect seems sensible because if you place it at all correctly, it's going to have an effect on the turn it takes place anyway. You essentially get to dump two stress on a ship much of the time. I understand ace deterrent upgrades but uh, it catches a bunch of other stuff in the crossfire that it probably shouldn't. And yes, I know this is entirely within your control- don't ever K-turn if you're in range two or so of a jumpmaster with it equipped, or just.. y'know, don't play jousty lists that have red K-turns because they weren't that good in the first place. I also think the template placement issue is kind of a thing because last tournament I played against a list with a bunch of bombs and it bogged the game way down as everything got placed and this is even worse.
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Oct 8, 2016 23:04
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The placement issue is the only one I agree with here. The rest is just getting used to a new thing, look back on it in three months and the fiddly placement will be the only thing you still care about. You'll have worked out how to play with it. And yeah, maybe consider planning your reds a little more carefully - I've played jousty, swarmy lists before and often found it better to turn them round in ways which keep them actions, even if it means losing a shot for a turn.
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Oct 8, 2016 23:17
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thespaceinvader posted:The placement issue is the only one I agree with here. Yeah, I mean, i'll work around it, anyone with talent is going to, but I think the interaction is a bad idea and probably didn't need to be done that way. Making it consistent with action bombs doesn't make much sense because action bombs only hit one ship and go away after they go off anyway. IMO, that's why they made the action bomb with control effects(conner net) give ions rather than stress, because ions are a cleaner interaction that comes with a delay. If conner nets immediately ionized they would be, not unbeatable but extremely disruptive in a way they probably shouldn't. I do not think a 1 point illicit should be able to double stress ships in this way.
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Oct 8, 2016 23:22
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Lancer-class Pursuit Craft: Shadowport Hunter (33) Rigged Cargo Chute (1) Rigged Cargo Chute (1) Lancer-class Pursuit Craft: Shadowport Hunter (33) Rigged Cargo Chute (1) Rigged Cargo Chute (1) YV-666: Trandoshan Slaver (29) Rigged Cargo Chute (1)
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Oct 9, 2016 01:50
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