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HIJK posted:He literally said HIJK posted:This is why it's almost impossible to actually discuss racism in tv production, because someone always blows their top and takes reasonable discussion as a personal insult. Relax BrianWilly, sheesh.
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Oct 9, 2016 05:56
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Suggesting that only an Asian person should be the best kung fuist in the world is kind of racist.
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Oct 9, 2016 06:09
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BrianWilly posted:"Considering how well Luke Cage handled black issues while still calling to mind its blaxploitation roots, I see no reason why Iron Fist won't." Your anger is performative and should be taken seriously by no one. Iron Fist is based off a racist concept and Marvel may or may not do something interesting with it. The entire point is that Luke Cage was self aware, which is an interesting part of their track record, and that we can't tell much from a trailer. That doesn't mean it'll be a good show, and you don't have to love it, and it doesn't mean you or anyone else shouldn't point that stuff out, but other people will have different takes on the situation. Like I said, chill.
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Oct 9, 2016 06:10
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BrianWilly posted:
Jesus Christ you're self-righteous. And don't think I didn't notice that black dynamite dodge.
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Oct 9, 2016 06:18
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HIJK posted:Your anger is performative and should be taken seriously by no one.
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Oct 9, 2016 06:19
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Rhyno posted:If I've learned anything from the existing three Netflix series it's that the first twelve episodes of each season will be pretty good and they'll give us a lackluster stinker to close out the season. That loving costume in Daredevil was so much worse than Diamondback.
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Oct 9, 2016 06:20
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Diamondback's costume was goofy on purpose. I don't get how people are missing this. The whole character is about bashing everyone over the head with how dumb and ridiculous he acts.
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Oct 9, 2016 06:22
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Its not your anger but your needless and insufferably patronizing attitude like you're the only person in the loving world who knows about what racism against Asian people is. We could append the words *sarcastic sigh* before every single one of your posts and get the same result.
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Oct 9, 2016 06:22
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Codependent Poster posted:Diamondback's costume was goofy on purpose. I don't get how people are missing this. The whole character is about bashing everyone over the head with how dumb and ridiculous he acts. Ridiculous is one thing. It just looked like crap. Aphrodite posted:Suggesting that only an Asian person should be the best kung fuist in the world is kind of racist. We have no idea how they are going to address anything as of yet.
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Oct 9, 2016 06:26
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It sucks that Iron Fist has Last Samurai syndrome but I'm not sure how you could fix that and tell an even remotely similar story.
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Oct 9, 2016 06:28
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Maybe they moved K'un L'un to the Caucasus region to fix the problem.
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Oct 9, 2016 06:35
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Rhyno posted:We have no idea how they are going to address anything as of yet. I wasn't talking about the show.
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Oct 9, 2016 06:37
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I think Iron Fist should be about an Asian businessman who learns American martial arts (idk pro wrestling or something) from a hidden city in Kentucky or something.
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Oct 9, 2016 06:58
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BrianWilly posted:Your passive-aggression is simply tone-policing writ-large and merely illustrates your discomfort with genuine social discourse. If you're not prepared to respond to anger from someone on the receiving end of racist trends, then you shouldn't be discussing racism, period. At first I was ready to take umbrage at this before I realized that it's partially my fault, because I don't talk about my personal deets a whole lot. Anyway, the point is: I'm a racial minority myself. That's not something I bandy around here because it doesn't matter very much and I don't like posting identifying details on what used to be Helldump central. So I don't talk about it. I mean, what's the point? I never have anything to add to such discussions. I just...hate talking about it to strangers. They always want to know all sorts of invasive details that I don't want to give out because then I open myself up to more racism. At least here I'm just that person with a Matt Murdock avatar. No one has to know the details of my ethnicity. But it does give me direct exposure to prejudice in physical society. It's pretty loving ugly. It's dehumanizing. It's demoralizing. It's a whole bunch of words starting with "de-". At best, it's aggravating, at worst it's fatal. People think they can treat me like loving poo poo just because I'm not part of any majority. Because I'm the wrong color, and a woman, and queer, and-- I give this small window into my life so that you understand I'm not a straight white cis boogeyman, that I'm, you know, real. Whatever picture of me you have in your head isn't accurate. And I still say you need to chill out. Saying "tone policing" is the absence of argument. It doesn't mean anything except stating "someone doesn't like the way I'm saying something, I'm sad now." If you want to have a reasonable discussion about whitewashing and how Hollywood reduces people like me to one dimensional and insulting stereotypes that creates more real world prejudice that hurts me and my family and my community on an intimate and personal level, that's fine and great. I won't join you because I don't want to, but I'm sure DnD has room for that thread if they don't have one already. I told you to chill in that first response because Toxx made a good point about seeing the actual show before making any assumptions about the racial dynamics, and then you jumped on him. Then you turned around and accused me of "tone policing" because you feel like no one is taking you seriously. But here's the thing: if you want to make your anger heard by the people who can change things, by the people who matter, then you need to take it out of a dead gay forum and into the real world where these things matter and where they're not bits and bytes playing out on a screen in the form of text. Angry words change very little when they're aimed at the other proles. That petition by fans to cast an Asian Danny Rand? That was a great idea. It didn't accomplish jackshit because Marvel already had someone in mind but it's a good example of the kind of action we need to take. And so my prescription is the same as it was before: step away from the computer for a bit. And definitely don't watch Iron Fist because it'll only upset you.
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Oct 9, 2016 07:10
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Okay. I'm gonna toss you some thoughts, and you can choose to take them or leave them or piss in them or whatever. Someone lied to you when they told you that claims of tone-policing is the absence of argument. Tone-policing is a persistent, long-established tactic and mindset used against all stripes of people; not even just the oppressed, but oppressors as well. MLK himself wrote about the tactic -- though obviously without calling it that -- and decried it. I'm not gonna go all deep into this thing, anyone can Google whatever they want about it, though I invite you consider how you and Toxx have completely dragged the discussion away from anything I was saying and into how I should just be nicer when saying those things. Like, you're annoyed that I've accused you of tone-policing, but you did do it. You're doing it now with that post. I can't see it any other way. And I don't want to disparage you sharing your personal details because I understand how gutsy and well-intentioned it was to put yourself out there like that. But notice how -- and I understand this wasn't your intention, and I'm trying to say this in the least incendiary way I can conceive of -- you've now positioned yourself as the proper, model minority who bears all the terrible things the world throws at them with poise and composure and civility, and I'm now the rear end in a top hat activist who rants and raves and gets offended at things. You're in the right, because you're nice. I'm wrong, because I'm mean. And on that note...don't say "your anger is performative." Just don't. I have no idea where you even came up with a phrase like that, but it makes you sound like a weird MRA. Again...not trying to start a thing here, just take it or leave it. And, look, thanks for the prescription, but I'm fine here. I like being online learning and talking about these issues, angrily or not. This is my fun time. That said, I'm going to maintain that you (and anyone, really) might wanna studiously disregard any discussions of racism if my degree of anger (which is...what, really? A half-dozen bitchy posts about a TV show?) is uncomfortable to you, because emotional responses a whole lot more severe than mine are kind of part and parcel of social discourse. A lot of people have the capacity to detach themselves from those emotional responses, and that's nice for them, but a lot of others either don't, or don't see why they should.
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Oct 9, 2016 09:01
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Please don't cite MLK to legitimize your grievances with online arguments.
BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 09:55 on Oct 9, 2016 |
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Oct 9, 2016 09:53
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Sure seems like a pretty extreme reaction to, what, three minutes between two trailers of a seven hundred and eighty or so minute show. Must be nice to be able to completely understand and judge a thing by experiencing only 0.4% of it. 
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Oct 9, 2016 10:11
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So it turns out old comics have some serious issues with racism, so the current shows/movies based on them have a high potential for racist content. Thus the companies that make the shows/movies need to be very aware when making them, lest they bring that racism into their shows. Remember how IM3 took the Mandarin, a character consisting almost entirely of yellow peril bullshit, and used him instead to make a point how Americans are always looking to blame a dark skinned foreigner for their problems while ignoring the damage done by corporations? The concern that Iron Fist will be white savior man beating up hordes of Asian people with his superior kung-fu is a valid one, but we've seen exactly one scene in a trailer that indicates that. Goddamn I hope it isn't like that. From the trailer, it appears that Danny was thrown from a crashing plane and brought to K'un Lun by monks who didn't want him to freeze to death after losing his entire family. That seems like a reasonable place to start when trying to divorce IF from some of it's questionable elements.
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Oct 9, 2016 10:14
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I am glad that Luke Cage chose to pay tribute to the character's blaxploitation roots by playing awesome 70s-style music and occasionally using lighting and color coords reminescent of kung fu films instead of just making a modern blaxploitation show as some people inexplicably wanted. It's entirely possible to keep good aspects of a thing steeped in bad culturally outdated elements and leave the rest behind.
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Oct 9, 2016 10:21
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I just hope it's not going to be season 1 of "Arrow" with Danny constantly talking about how "when I was on the
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Oct 9, 2016 11:19
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Iron Fist is going to be the best of the bunch, until punisher comes out.
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Oct 9, 2016 12:11
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Speaking of which, I wonder if Punisher is going to be part of Defenders or not.
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Oct 9, 2016 13:19
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Cythereal posted:Speaking of which, I wonder if Punisher is going to be part of Defenders or not. Punisher comes out after Defenders. So, possible, but unlikely.
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Oct 9, 2016 13:56
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Little Mac posted:I think Iron Fist should be about an Asian businessman who learns American martial arts (idk pro wrestling or something) from a hidden city in Kentucky or something. The hidden city is a trailer park and instead of a dragon his tattoo is a bald eagle.
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Oct 9, 2016 14:20
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Little Mac posted:I think Iron Fist should be about an Asian businessman who learns American martial arts (idk pro wrestling or something) from a hidden city in Kentucky or something. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76pIeDsYDKo
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Oct 9, 2016 15:10
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I don't really know much about Iron Fist outside of seeing him in stuff like that fuckin awesome Avengers cartoon from a few years back. Isn't Danny like...always a white dude? Was there a chance that this would be different and still be similar enough to tell the same plot or is this showing up at a Superman movie and throwing a fit about Kryptonite?
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Oct 9, 2016 16:16
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It's more like showing up at Flash Gordon and complaining they haven't modernized Kang to not be racist stereotype.
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Oct 9, 2016 16:49
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greatn posted:It's more like showing up at Flash Gordon and complaining they haven't modernized Kang to not be racist stereotype. Eh, I'd say more like complaining that the Karate Kid remake didn't cast an Japanese-American kid as the lead. It's certainly not doing anything to overcome cultural inertia, and pointing out that it's a problem or a flaw that could be improved on is totally valid, but it's unlikely to be a deal breaker for most. (In the Karate Kid case, the rest of the movie was the deal breaker)
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Oct 9, 2016 17:21
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BrianWilly posted:Okay. I'm gonna toss you some thoughts, and you can choose to take them or leave them or piss in them or whatever. 1) you're not MLK, pal. 2) I still think crying "tone policing" is dumb as hell, in the twenty first century. We carry tiny supercomputers in our back pockets that we can whip out and use to say whatever we want, wherever we want. If someone shuts us down in one place, on any topic really, we can go somewhere else and say it consequence free. That's really cool and it opens a lot more options for communication, meeting people, and just talking than were possible in the 1960s. God bless freedom of speech, especially in these troubling times. We have options to reach millions of people wherever we are. 3) "Performative" is the only word I can think of since you're posting on dead forums and annoying people from a chair instead of communicating in the real world. I know in some part this is letting off steam but that's even more lol-y. We're having this convo for the benefit of ourselves which rather renders our morality to hollow posturing. "See? I'm better than this guy." So yes. Performative. We're playing this theater out for the entertainment of the audience. I'm starting to have fun though. 😘 4) I don't think you're wrong. No, really, I don't. Iron Fist is based off a racist concept and there's every chance Marvel plays it straight without addressing the racism. If you think I'm trying to go for some doublethink powerplay where I convince the current power structure "no really I'm not like that guy *winkwinknudgenudge*" then I'm sorry to inform you that news of this coup were sorely exaggerated. I believe that IF has every opportunity to be good and discuss the racism inherent in the story. I also believe that you're right and the show will be a racist clusterfuck of dumb white savior tropes where the East Asian villains are one dimensional comical stereotypes. I can believe both of these things at the same time. I just want to wait and see because Luke Cage has been out for one week and also, we have exactly one teaser trailer to work from which tells us just about nothing. You're not wrong Walter, you're just overexcited.
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Oct 9, 2016 17:45
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I think Iron Fist is cool & good & I am looking forward to seeing him do cool Kung fu and punch things with his iron fist & I hope the other immortal weapons show up (been looking forward to that since seeing the steel serpent symbol). 
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Oct 9, 2016 17:51
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It's not racist for a white guy going and being super good at Kung fu. There's not even anything racist about him being the best and beating up every Asian alive. Unless he like specifically targets Asians, that would be racist. Martial arts are just a skill, anyone can learn them and having a cultural history with one doesn't make a person more likely to be good at it. There was plenty of racist stuff in early Iron Fist and the stories it was stolen wholesale from, but the core concept is not and so it is in fact possible for the show to avoid it.
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Oct 9, 2016 18:23
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SonicRulez posted:I don't really know much about Iron Fist outside of seeing him in stuff like that fuckin awesome Avengers cartoon from a few years back. Isn't Danny like...always a white dude? Was there a chance that this would be different and still be similar enough to tell the same plot or is this showing up at a Superman movie and throwing a fit about Kryptonite? Superman is the most popular superhero of all time and relatively speaking no one gives a poo poo about Iron Fist. So playing with the character's backstory, as Marvel has done often in recent years with other characters, is something that was totally on the table. If Heimdall could be Idris Elba, then Iron Fist could be literally anyone. Aphrodite posted:It's not racist for a white guy going and being super good at Kung fu. There's not even anything racist about him being the best and beating up every Asian alive. Unless he like specifically targets Asians, that would be racist. Martial arts are just a skill, anyone can learn them and having a cultural history with one doesn't make a person more likely to be good at it. The concept of a white outsider becoming some kind of chosen one/savior figure for a non-white foreign people is what is racist, or rather, a racist trope. I don't know if that is the story they are going with for the show, but that was certainly the story they went with in the recent Spider-Man cartoon.
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Oct 9, 2016 18:31
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They just screened the first half of the Legion pilot at NYCC. Looks pretty good. Think its gonna draw a lot of comparisons to Mr. Robot though.
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Oct 9, 2016 18:38
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Little Mac posted:I think Iron Fist should be about an Asian businessman who learns American martial arts (idk pro wrestling or something) from a hidden city in Kentucky or something. Will his martial arts tournament be Wrestlemania? also Luke Cage wishes it was as good as Black Dynamite. 
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Oct 9, 2016 18:48
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ToastyPotato posted:The concept of a white outsider becoming some kind of chosen one/savior figure for a non-white foreign people is what is racist, or rather, a racist trope. I don't know if that is the story they are going with for the show, but that was certainly the story they went with in the recent Spider-Man cartoon. He's just one of seven in the new stories.
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Oct 9, 2016 18:50
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wyntyr posted:I think Iron Fist is cool & good & I am looking forward to seeing him do cool Kung fu and punch things with his iron fist & I hope the other immortal weapons show up (been looking forward to that since seeing the steel serpent symbol). In the trailer at 59 seconds, it looks like the Bride of Nine Spiders is there. 
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Oct 9, 2016 18:52
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Aphrodite posted:He's just one of seven in the new stories. That's why I would be willing to wait to watch the show. I am sure it will be fun in general, but hopefully they find a way to navigate the history of the character in a way that isn't outdated as gently caress. Disney has a better track record than most in recent years with diversity and stuff like that, even with huge missteps like Long Ranger, so I still have some faith.
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Oct 9, 2016 18:55
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Maybe it's the videos or the trailer but Danny Rand looks small as hell in those videos and also scrawny. Not sure if that's intentional.
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Oct 9, 2016 19:26
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ToastyPotato posted:Superman is the most popular superhero of all time and relatively speaking no one gives a poo poo about Iron Fist. So playing with the character's backstory, as Marvel has done often in recent years with other characters, is something that was totally on the table. If Heimdall could be Idris Elba, then Iron Fist could be literally anyone. I mean I'm all for Human Torch being a black dude and all that, because I see no issue with it, but it still seems like a weird complaint to have in this particular situation. It's an adaptation. You know what you are signing up for. There have been Iron Fist stories for a while now. I would think you know going in that Danny is a white dude who knows martial arts. I dunno, it reminds me of a friend of mine complaining about the blaxpoitation elements in Luke Cage. It's Luke Cage, you should've known what was up from the jump. I guess if the point being made is "Yes, I acknowledge that this is always what it was gonna be and I'm upset about it" then that point is super valid. It just seems a little mean-spirited to any other discussion that may happen. If you know you don't like the very concept of Iron Fist, maybe when you see it's being adapted, you just...don't bother engaging? This conversation makes it seem like I should feel like a racist prick for wanting to see glowy ninja fighting. Guess that's my problem.
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Oct 9, 2016 19:28
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CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK posted:Will his martial arts tournament be Wrestlemania?
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Oct 9, 2016 19:29
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