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Nitrousoxide posted:Remember how Hungary didn't regulate Sunday hours, then did for the first time in 2015 and the the people said holy poo poo this is a terrible idea and did away with it via referendum? Yes, and I hold the plebiscite opinions of Orban's Hungary in high regard.
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Oct 9, 2016 20:20
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steinrokkan posted:Yes, and I hold the plebiscite opinions of Orban's Hungary in high regard. Smarter than Germans apparently.
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Oct 9, 2016 20:22
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Nitrousoxide posted:Smarter than Germans apparently. Don't post things you cannot edit back.
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Oct 9, 2016 20:25
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fishmech posted:Lol what the gently caress are you even saying at this point, tšehhi? It's a simple fact that restricting Sunday trading only is about making things convenient for mainline Christians, and it's a rather big problem for devout Jews and members of certain Christian sects. As well as just plain being a hassle for atheists who don't hold any particular day to be special and would be perfectly happy to shop on Sunday and not Tuesday or whatever. You're talking complete nonsense. Every single day of the week holds special meaning for some kind of religion in the world. What you are advocating is to stop having work free days at all, because some weirdo, somewhere, might be offended that they didn't chose his favorite day for it. You need to realise that this whole religious shtick is something that you complete made up in your own head. It doesn't even exists as an argument in public discourse here in Germany and it certainly isn't factually true. Working on Sundays was very common in the late 19th century and only stopped after a Bismarckian reform to appease the freaked social democrats and socialists.
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Oct 9, 2016 20:27
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Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:You're talking complete nonsense. Every single day of the week holds special meaning for some kind of religion in the world. What you are advocating is to stop having work free days at all, because some weirdo, somewhere, might be offended that they didn't chose his favorite day for it. Yes, that is why deciding to over-privilege one specific day, is a terrible idea in the modern world. There should be no particular work-free day during the week, rather there should be requirements that no given person has to work every day of the week (or indeed to have to work 6 days a week). No, I didn't make up the widely known Christian origins of heavily restricting activities on Sundays. There's a very good reason they did it that way rather than, say, making it so that people could only be required to work a 5 or 6 day week and leaving the free day/days up to local decision or something. Pinch Me Im Meming posted:Capitalists are not people, fishmech. Ah, calling the Jews and Seventh-Day Adventists all capitalists. Really nice.
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Oct 9, 2016 20:36
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Do you also support removing all national holidays since most of them have a Christian origin?
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Oct 9, 2016 20:38
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fishmech posted:Ah, calling the Jews and Seventh-Day Adventists all capitalists. Really nice. I'll remember this retort when I need to troll /pol/, it's really nice.
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Oct 9, 2016 20:39
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Andrast posted:Do you also support removing all national holidays since most of them have a Christian origin? No, that doesn't follow in the least.
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Oct 9, 2016 20:47
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I gotta say I've read a lot of dumb arguments over the years in the forum, but this takes the cake. Just wow. Abolish workfree days and holidays because they have some vague, ancient Christian roots? I'm out, this is just to dumb to even discuss. You win, fishmech.
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Oct 9, 2016 20:49
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fishmech posted:No, that doesn't follow in the least. Why do you want to inconvenience all the non-Christians by making Christmas a holiday?
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Oct 9, 2016 20:49
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Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:I gotta say I've read a lot of dumb arguments over the years in the forum, but this takes the cake. Just wow. You don't HAVE work free days though! Your Sundays still have a ton of people working (let alone your Saturdays). The idea that just not having supermarkets and hardware stores open means Sunday is "work-free" is frankly hilarious. Andrast posted:Why do you want to inconvenience all the non-Christians by making Christmas a holiday? You're not making sense. The existence of holidays for most people doesn't mean inconvenience. Specifically banning certain shops from being open on Sunday does.
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Oct 9, 2016 20:51
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Banking holidays also have lots of people working, but work on those days is not supposed to take place as a general rule, and is under regulation - so they don't matter either, obviously. This guy really is a piece of work.
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Oct 9, 2016 20:59
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fishmech posted:Not having shops open on Sunday literally is an idiotic Christian thing, that's the only reason the laws exist. You do know that the Third Commandment is there specifically to give people a day's rest from work? It's not a thing that the Church promoted/promotes as some vaguely-defined show of power or age-old tradition or something. The reason the commandment exists is that it's good for people to rest.
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Oct 9, 2016 21:03
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steinrokkan posted:Banking holidays also have lots of people working, but work on those days is not supposed to take place, and is under regulation - so they don't matter either, obviously. This guy really is a piece of work. Yeah, they don't matter, so long as they're not forcing problems for people who follow a different schedule for religious reasons or simply not being fond of the dominant cultural schedules. Especially these days when the need for actually hitting up a bank is lesser than ever thanks to card payments and ATMs. Valiantman posted:You do know that the Third Commandment is there specifically to give people a day's rest from work? It's not a thing that the Church promoted/promotes as some vaguely-defined show of power or age-old tradition or something. The reason the commandment exists is that it's good for people to rest. And if you ask a Jew what the Third Commandment is about it's to rest from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday. And if you ask a Seventh-Day Adventist and certain other Christian sects it's to rest all of Saturday. That's why forcing the "day of rest" to be a specific day is a bad thing. That's why a sane country makes sure of days of rest by requiring that your average worker only needs to work 5 days a week, for a certain amount time each of those days, before the employer starts having to pay significantly more - and possibly even outright bans at a certain point.
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Oct 9, 2016 21:06
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fishmech posted:Yeah, they don't matter, so long as they're not forcing problems for people who follow a different schedule for religious reasons or simply not being fond of the dominant cultural schedules. Especially these days when the need for actually hitting up a bank is lesser than ever thanks to card payments and ATMs. So basically there is no difference between holidays and Sunday restrictions but you still act like there is because it suits your argument. It's really hosed up how you discriminate against all the non-Christians like that.
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Oct 9, 2016 21:09
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Andrast posted:So basically there is no difference between holidays and Sunday restrictions but you still act like there is because it suits your argument. A banking holiday is a specific thing, dude: it's a time when banks are to be closed. It has no requirement, say, that stores can't be open. That's different from stores being required to be closed every Sunday. And it's pretty obvious why that's different, especially these days when many people no longer even have a physical bank branch for their bank to close!
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Oct 9, 2016 21:14
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fishmech posted:Yeah, they don't matter, so long as they're not forcing problems for people who follow a different schedule for religious reasons or simply not being fond of the dominant cultural schedules. Especially these days when the need for actually hitting up a bank is lesser than ever thanks to card payments and ATMs. But by your logic they do cause problems because on these days we severely limit the options for doing things out of arbitrary religious / nationalist reasons. Same as on SUndays. Clearly you are now just mindlessly doubling down on some retarded garbage you made up in your previous posts. fishmech posted:A banking holiday is a specific thing, dude: it's a time when banks are to be closed. It has no requirement, say, that stores can't be open. That's different from stores being required to be closed every Sunday. I don't know where you live, but banking holiday is a common translation of the various national public holidays in continental Europe, that do indeed have labour regulations applied to them in many, if not all countries.
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Oct 9, 2016 21:14
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fishmech posted:A banking holiday is a specific thing, dude: it's a time when banks are to be closed. It has no requirement, say, that stores can't be open. That's different from stores being required to be closed every Sunday. Your definition of what forces people to follow a different schedule because of the dominant culture seems really loving arbitrary
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Oct 9, 2016 21:17
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The funny thing is how fishmech realizes that Sunday work restrictions are stupid (good!) but is too afraid to attack the left and unions who are responsible for maintaining them. So instead we have a stupid argument about how Christians (a group that is ok to dislike) are responsible for them, despite the fact that every single European here is saying that in Western Europe you haven't been able to justify any policy with "well, it's in the bible" for ages. This isn't America, this is a continent where politicians try to downplay their faith to avoid appearing "crazy" (Tony Blair for example).
Geriatric Pirate fucked around with this message at 21:22 on Oct 9, 2016 |
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Oct 9, 2016 21:20
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Geriatric Pirate posted:The funny thing is how fishmech realizes that Sunday work restrictions are stupid (good!) but is too afraid to attack the left and unions who are responsible for maintaining them. So instead we have a stupid argument about how Christians (a group that is ok to dislike) is responsible for it, despite the fact that every single European here is saying that in Western Europe you haven't been able to justify any policy with "well, it's in the bible" for ages. This isn't America, this is a continent where politicians try to downplay their faith to avoid appearing "crazy" (Tony Blair for example). I can't believe I agree with Geriatric Pirate post
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Oct 9, 2016 21:21
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steinrokkan posted:But by your logic they do cause problems because on these days we severely limit the options for doing things out of arbitrary religious / nationalist reasons. Same as on SUndays. Clearly you are now just mindlessly doubling down on some retarded garbage you made up in your previous posts. Merely having a holiday is no requirement that everything be shut down. If you're trying to claim everything should be shut down just because it is a holiday, then that would be a problem! Banking holiday has a specific meaning in English, and it's that physical bank branches are closed. Some countries that speak English decide to treat them as a good excuse to close other things, but it usually isn't required that everything else also shut down. Frequently, hourly wage workers on those days are required to be paid as if they were working overtime. Andrast posted:Your definition of what forces people to follow a different schedule because of the dominant culture seems really loving arbitrary It isn't in the least. Geriatric Pirate posted:The funny thing is how fishmech realizes that Sunday work restrictions are stupid (good!) but is too afraid to attack the left and unions who are responsible for maintaining them. So instead we have a stupid argument about how Christians (a group that is ok to dislike) are responsible for them, despite the fact that every single European here is saying that in Western Europe you haven't been able to justify any policy with "well, it's in the bible" for ages. This isn't America, this is a continent where politicians try to downplay their faith to avoid appearing "crazy" (Tony Blair for example). Countries that literally have Christian church taxes don't get to claim they don't have Christian influence, broheim.
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Oct 9, 2016 21:26
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You seem to know absolutely nothing about how Christianity influences things in Europe
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Oct 9, 2016 21:31
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Andrast posted:You seem to know absolutely nothing about how Christianity influences things in Europe The fact that a lot of you like to deny it is funny and all, but it isn't true.
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Oct 9, 2016 21:33
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fishmech posted:The fact that a lot of you like to deny it is funny and all, but it isn't true. I know reading is hard for you but I didn't say it doesn't influence things. It just works differently than in America.
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Oct 9, 2016 21:34
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fishmech posted:
Why? It's a tax you can opt out of that just serves as an alternative to these organizations levying their own fees or scamming pensioners for donations. It's also collected by multiple churches, not just one, and I don't really see the influence of for example the Orthodox church in Finland (Orthodox Xmas isn't a public holiday) even though it has the right to collect church taxes. In Germany, Jews pay a church tax. Don't see how that affects their policies either. It's also completely irrelevant with regards to Sunday work restrictions, which are maintained by the left wing and unions, using arguments about workers' rights. You could have tried something more direct, but it wouldn't change the fact that it's completely irrelevant to public discourse today, especially about things like Sunday work restrictions (which are still a topical issue, and no one is using religion to argue for or against) Geriatric Pirate fucked around with this message at 21:39 on Oct 9, 2016 |
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Oct 9, 2016 21:36
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Most places in Greece are closed Sundays too (cafes and restaurants aren't, people's days off are a good time to go out for coffee or dinner). I can see how it's an inconvenience to someone who's not familiar with it, and sure, a couple of times I had to go do grocery shopping early because Sunday is a no-go. Ultimately it's a minor hassle sometimes, and it guarantees a working day off, so it's overall a good thing. Trying to argue it's theocratic is nonsense. Sure, Christianity is the original context of it, but that means dick-all except to the dwindling amount of people that keep going to church. For literally everyone else it's just rest time, like Christmas and Easter holidays.
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Oct 9, 2016 21:39
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Andrast posted:I can't believe I agree with Geriatric Pirate post
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Oct 9, 2016 21:41
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"i didn't get to shop during sundays in germany, so my weekend was ruined. gently caress germany!" Is an opinion you can have for 1 hour max after it actually happens to you. But taking time to type poo poo up online seems like a waste of effort, given how culturally entrenched the idea is. I guess Social Democracy prevails again!
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Oct 9, 2016 21:50
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If you really can't see why the government literally operating to the benefit of a church is influenced by doing so, well, I don't know what to tell you. Andrast posted:I know reading is hard for you but I didn't say it doesn't influence things. It just works differently than in America. No, American and general European relationships here are quite close at heart, even with somewhat different external outcomes. YF-23 posted:
It's just rest time for everyone, sure, except all those people you still have working on those days. Like all those cafe and restaurant workers. Don't really see how they're getting rest time out of it, do you? If you don't have a problem making the waiters and chefs work on Sunday, why have a problem having a few more cashiers working on Sunday instead of on Monday or Friday or whatever?
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Oct 9, 2016 21:57
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fishmech posted:You're not making sense. The existence of holidays for most people doesn't mean inconvenience. Specifically banning certain shops from being open on Sunday does. No, it doesn't. It only inconvenience people who are too dumb to do their shopping before. And then we'd have to have all shops open 24/7 in order not to inconvenience them.
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Oct 9, 2016 22:03
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Cat Mattress posted:No, it doesn't. "Too dumb" or maybe they're just people who have long commutes/hard work during the week that leaves them too tired to shop on the weekdays, and then their religion or other personal belief doesn't allow them to shop on Saturdays. Tons of countries have shops that stay open 24/7 for that very reason yes. It's ludicrous to ban them.
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Oct 9, 2016 22:27
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fishmech posted:It's just rest time for everyone, sure, except all those people you still have working on those days. Like all those cafe and restaurant workers. Don't really see how they're getting rest time out of it, do you? Because I think Sundays off is good, even if it does not apply to the entire workforce.
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Oct 9, 2016 22:32
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It's actually very cool and good.
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Oct 9, 2016 22:43
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YF-23 posted:Because I think Sundays off is good, even if it does not apply to the entire workforce. And other people think the big day off should be Saturday or Friday. And maybe some weirdos want it to be Wednesday, who can say. Which is why there shouldn't be laws barring things from opening on Sunday, merely laws to make sure everybody's getting the proper amount of days off!
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Oct 9, 2016 22:46
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So maybe those people should get together and petition the unions to sponsor a change in the law if a majority of people can agree on a better day than Sunday! Good luck! In the meantime, let people enjoy the objective wonders of having a nationally coordinated day of leisure with no distractions.
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Oct 9, 2016 22:49
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"Look, here I am, the Enlightened "In God We Trust" American Citizen, telling you barbarous atheistic Europeans about how disgusting your slavish adherence to Christianity is. We're not like this in the United States of "One Nation Under God" America. We're not constantly trying to shove Christianity in the face of our citizens, "so help me God". "Because, you see, you filthy Euros, we in America worship the One True God instead: Mammon. And Mammon wants to put an end to concepts such as "work free days" and "legally enforced paid vacations" and all this claptrap. We in America believe in work, work, work and more work. We have even reinvented slavery in the form of prison labor, and you can bet that we'd open shopping malls inside prisons if we could. Anyway, gently caress your oppressive days of rest, they offend me." -- 
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Oct 9, 2016 23:05
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Hail Mammon
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Oct 9, 2016 23:08
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fishmech posted:And other people think the big day off should be Saturday or Friday. And maybe some weirdos want it to be Wednesday, who can say. Which is why there shouldn't be laws barring things from opening on Sunday, merely laws to make sure everybody's getting the proper amount of days off! I am of the firm opinion that the state being able to set some things outside of capital's domain is important, and Sundays off being mandatory is a case of that. Why is it Sunday? Because it's how it's been before. It doesn't matter why it was that way, what matters is that this is framework we inherited, like holidays whose date is derived from religion.
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Oct 9, 2016 23:11
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steinrokkan posted:So maybe those people should get together and petition the unions to sponsor a change in the law if a majority of people can agree on a better day than Sunday! Good luck! In the meantime, let people enjoy the objective wonders of having a nationally coordinated day of leisure with no distractions. Sunday already isn't a universal day off though in the countries that restrict shopping that day, as tons of people still have to work. You'd think you'd understand that as someone living in a country that doesn't have heavy restrictions on shopping that day, but I guess not. Cat Mattress posted:"Look, here I am, the Enlightened "In God We Trust" American Citizen, telling you barbarous atheistic Europeans about how disgusting your slavish adherence to Christianity is. We're not like this in the United States of "One Nation Under God" America. We're not constantly trying to shove Christianity in the face of our citizens, "so help me God". And once again, in none of those countries is Sunday a work-free day or a day of rest, as tons of people are still working on every Sunday of the year. for that matter, in the horrible dystopia of the most of the world without heavy Sunday shopping restrictions, most people still don't work on Sunday! YF-23 posted:I am of the firm opinion that the state being able to set some things outside of capital's domain is important, and Sundays off being mandatory is a case of that. Why is it Sunday? Because it's how it's been before. It doesn't matter why it was that way, what matters is that this is framework we inherited, like holidays whose date is derived from religion. But you don't have mandatory Sundays off for everyone. You only have mandatory Sundays off for a few particular lines of business, not even all retail.
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Oct 9, 2016 23:13
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Having a centralised day off is good. Even if it's not 100% of the population, as long as it's over 1/7. If a centralised day already exists there is no reason to change it. Fishmech please don't live up to your terrible stereotype and stop shitposting like a tard.
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Oct 9, 2016 23:16
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!