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Who What Now posted:No, you never, under any circumstances, should do any amount of work without getting compensated for it. That's illegal and unethical as gently caress. Staying 10 minutes late to finish a task or showing up 15 minutes early isn't a problem. It's "work ethic" spewed out by Mike Rowe that's the problem. He wants people to willingly turn themselves into exploited slave labor and do way more than just stay 10 minutes late. Seriously, if there's a deadline of "tomorrow morning" that needs to be met and it's 5pm and you only have about 10 minutes of work left to finish and you're like "lolnope" and leave you deserve to be fired for not being a team player. At the same time, it should never become an expectation that you'll always stay late to do stuff even if there's no deadline. That's exploitative.
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Oct 12, 2016 15:45
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WampaLord posted:And this is how and why people get exploited. Telling people to suck it up and deal with it isn't the solution and gently caress Mike Rowe for doing it. And encouraging counterproductive behavior does not help either. its a tragedy of the commons scenario, and if you don't do it, someone else will. don't get straight up exploited, but don't let someone else get your promotion and money by not playing the game.
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Oct 12, 2016 15:50
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moderation is the key. you have to give a little to get a little. if you're the kind of person who's leaving at 5:01 on the nose every day you're going to send an unfavorable impression. it's the same as if you obviously dont listen to others when they're speaking in a conversation mike rowe is a blowhard who encourages people to unrealistic standards of hard work that lead to being exploited but at the same time, letting yourself be exploited a little isn't awful and it can lead to rewards
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Oct 12, 2016 15:53
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Hahahaha I just double checked his reading recommendations in his latest screed about why only educated people should vote, and while he's talking about stuff that sounds good ("open a book, educate yourself, try Keynes, Marx, Kant") the last thing he says (and the only reading recommendation he offers with a title and author is Economics in One Lesson. The free market cannot fail us, it can only be failed.
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Oct 12, 2016 15:53
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and to reiterate, this is not the way things should be, its how they are. better workers protection laws, more union membership, and more options for employees to sue for damages are all ways this can be fixed and help force the culture change. till then, don't be the one who gets passed up out of principle
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Oct 12, 2016 15:56
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boner confessor posted:moderation is the key. you have to give a little to get a little. if you're the kind of person who's leaving at 5:01 on the nose every day you're going to send an unfavorable impression. This is dumb bullshit and exactly why we need labor unions. You shouldn't ever loving get looked down on for leaving at quitting time.
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Oct 12, 2016 15:56
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DrNutt posted:This is dumb bullshit and exactly why we need labor unions. You shouldn't ever loving get looked down on for leaving at quitting time. Worth noting this only really applies to salaried. Hourly people are shuffled out the door as quickly as possible.
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Oct 12, 2016 15:57
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WoodrowSkillson posted:and to reiterate, this is not the way things should be, its how they are. better workers protection laws, more union membership, and more options for employees to sue for damages are all ways this can be fixed and help force the culture change. Protip. At least in IT. the Super hard working dude never gets promoted. Ever. You are way too useful where you are currently at if you are putting that much time in and doing too much stuff on your own. Only way you ever get a raise is by going job hunting and getting a high offer from another job to force them to pay you more.
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Oct 12, 2016 16:01
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WoodrowSkillson posted:I needed that money. You know what would have really helped your money situation? Getting paid for the work you do.
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Oct 12, 2016 16:01
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computer parts posted:Worth noting this only really applies to salaried. Hourly people are shuffled out the door as quickly as possible. Which is funny, because surely Mike Rowe is directing that screed at lower level hourly people, right? Walmart has training to tell you to loving NOT work off the clock because they got in major trouble for it.
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Oct 12, 2016 16:01
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WampaLord posted:Which is funny, because surely Mike Rowe is directing that screed at lower level hourly people, right? I always got the feeling with Rowe that he's not talking about service industry or corporate jobs like that and more with the sort of romanticized blue collar work that's slowly dying out/being killed off by larger companies or outsourcing. It's the same sort of mentality that my west Texas dirt-farming kinfolk have, which is basically "always be closing/hustling" with a drawl and a twang. I mean, I wish that it worked like that still. I really do. But it doesn't.
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Oct 12, 2016 16:07
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I personally think the attitude is best summed up in this Goodfellas quote: https://youtu.be/3XGAmPRxV48?t=15 If your not getting paid for it then there is no reason to do it. Want more out of me, pay me for it. Don't like it? I refer you to the previous clip.
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Oct 12, 2016 16:07
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Elephant Ambush posted:Staying 10 minutes late to finish a task or showing up 15 minutes early isn't a problem. It's "work ethic" spewed out by Mike Rowe that's the problem. He wants people to willingly turn themselves into exploited slave labor and do way more than just stay 10 minutes late. I'll happily stay as long as needed to do whatever needs to be done. But I'm getting paid for it. If it's really that important then the company can compensate me for my time or flex my schedule. Otherwise the team can lick my balls.
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Oct 12, 2016 16:07
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citybeatnik posted:I always got the feeling with Rowe that he's not talking about service industry or corporate jobs like that and more with the sort of romanticized blue collar work that's slowly dying out/being killed off by larger companies or outsourcing. It's the same sort of mentality that my west Texas dirt-farming kinfolk have, which is basically "always be closing/hustling" with a drawl and a twang. Always Hustle is good advice. However working unpaid is hustling backwards...
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Oct 12, 2016 16:10
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computer parts posted:Worth noting this only really applies to salaried. Hourly people are shuffled out the door as quickly as possible. Which is why I'm kinda glad I work hourly in an understaffed kitchen because I can tell my boss to shove it when she tries to kick me out the door. I'm all "If HR has an issue with how much time I'm working, and how much overtime I'm being paid, HR can hire more people. This poo poo needs to get done before tomorrow."  Of course I'd rather be home and relaxing but until we get more team members I'm gonna snag each and every dollar of overtime pay I can get. When you work in a kitchen that pays more than minimum wage, it starts adding up nicely.
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Oct 12, 2016 16:11
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nine-gear crow posted:Okay, now I'm waffling between "mommy dressed me up like her favorite conservative shitlord and I hate the world because of it and I'm A GROWN MAN MOM GAAAAAWD" and "look at who I dressed up as so you'd pay attention to me mommy, please I think you could see it as, "Okay, Mom, I did this and you got your picture. Now give me my five dollars so I can go wash my face and change my shirt and go meet Henry and Stinky down at the skate park. I'm already a half hour late."
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Oct 12, 2016 16:12
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again."
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Dexo posted:Always Hustle is good advice. However working unpaid is hustling backwards... It works better in small towns because the capital you're not getting in money is made up by the capital you build up with the people around you, letting you build up a reputation and getting more work, or you've got folks at the church you go to watching your back/helping out. It does not work anywhere else.
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Oct 12, 2016 16:14
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Alkydere posted:Which is why I'm kinda glad I work hourly in an understaffed kitchen because I can tell my boss to shove it when she tries to kick me out the door. I'm all "If HR has an issue with how much time I'm working, and how much overtime I'm being paid, HR can hire more people. This poo poo needs to get done before tomorrow." At the warehouse I work at we've had overtime of some kind since March, and it's not likely to let up until January (we're adding a whole new shift because of -surprise - demand). Some people had similar sentiments about bills, but it does wear on you after a bit. Upper management hates it too because all of their metrics are being hosed by us paying for 1.5 more days of work per person but only getting 1 day worth of work out.
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Oct 12, 2016 16:18
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computer parts posted:At the warehouse I work at we've had overtime of some kind since March, and it's not likely to let up until January (we're adding a whole new shift because of -surprise - demand). Some people had similar sentiments about bills, but it does wear on you after a bit. I would bet money that it's not enough of a problem for them to try and put anything in place too quickly.
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Oct 12, 2016 16:22
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citybeatnik posted:It works better in small towns because the capital you're not getting in money is made up by the capital you build up with the people around you, letting you build up a reputation and getting more work, or you've got folks at the church you go to watching your back/helping out. Ok yeah. in that case. I'm speaking more in my experience in IT or my friend when he does Freelance writing. Never do poo poo for free. Ever. Or at least never give the illusion that this is something that should be done for free. Even if I'm helping out a family member, friend or anyone with a computer issue I generally will get paid something. Family members I might request some food item that they make very well. (Last time I helped my aunt she made and gave me like half a pound cake). Friend might have to drinks or something next time we go out.
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Oct 12, 2016 16:24
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Josef bugman posted:I would bet money that it's not enough of a problem for them to try and put anything in place too quickly. I mean, January is pretty quick, especially since we have to increase our worker base by ~60% in 6 months (the decision was made in July IIRC).
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Oct 12, 2016 16:25
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computer parts posted:At the warehouse I work at we've had overtime of some kind since March, and it's not likely to let up until January (we're adding a whole new shift because of -surprise - demand). Some people had similar sentiments about bills, but it does wear on you after a bit. Oh yeah, I work in a health-food kitchen and from January to about July was absolute madness as first we got hit by new years resolutions (as if suddenly eating gluten-free spaghetti and bolognese will do wonders) and we lost a bunch of people for various reasons at the same time. At the time I was bouncing between "Kill meeee...." and "Money!" whenever I got my paycheck because I kinda ended up in an awkward "indispensable" position. Things have gotten better at least but the kitchen is now supplying even more stores so I'm still working 45-50 hours a week. Which is at least better than the 50-60 I was working before. I fully expect the madness to return/people to drop once the new year rolls around again.  
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Oct 12, 2016 16:28
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The whole "unpaid overtime"/show up early/leave late stuff is a load of garbage. When working at the grocery store, the handbook and managers were super explicit about making sure that the lowest paid employees had their time managed to the second and weird rituals assuring that no minute is wasted from the nanosecond that you punched in.
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Oct 12, 2016 16:29
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Chilichimp posted:*shrug* Meritocracy is a word invented to describe a dystopia.
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Oct 12, 2016 16:33
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The worst thing about the Mike Rowe stuff is that, on a cursory reading, none of things he says are all "bad" ideas and I've seen that article posted at LEAST 5 times in the last 24hrs. However, I think most of the people in this thread are aware of the guy's general attitude about "WORK ETHICS" and what he means when he says all this poo poo. He's telling people not to vote because higher vote turnouts favor Democrats. OF COURSE he won't come out and say "Don't vote for Hillary" and I think he's fairly put off by Trump. Everything else in there is one slow, low-volume dog whistle about bootstraps and (probably) some Von Mises economic theory bullshit.
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Oct 12, 2016 16:39
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quote:1. I believe that I have won the greatest lottery of all time. I am alive. I walk the Earth. I live in America. Above all things, I am grateful. quote:10. I believe that I am a product of my choices – not my circumstances. I will never blame anyone for my shortcomings or the challenges I face. And I will never accept the credit for something I didn’t do. These two directly contradict each other.
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Oct 12, 2016 16:41
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Phone posted:The whole "unpaid overtime"/show up early/leave late stuff is a load of garbage. When working at the grocery store, the handbook and managers were super explicit about making sure that the lowest paid employees had their time managed to the second and weird rituals assuring that no minute is wasted from the nanosecond that you punched in. Middle-class office jobs have more of a culture of staying late, particularly in IT. Working-class jobs tend to be "on the clock" so if you work late, they are legally obligated to give you overtime or perhaps classify you as full-time, leading to better benefits. In IT, there's definitely a culture of "karoshi" (overwork with long hours) where everyone tries hard not the be the first to leave in the evening. In some high-powered startups people basically live at their desks. They aren't necessarily working all that time. Lots of web-browsing and bullshitting going on. Often, the hardest working person in the office works 9-5 but *intensely* without spending hours posting on SA (uhhhhh....), bitching about politics, or looking at cute kitten pictures.
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Oct 12, 2016 16:41
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DrNutt posted:You shouldn't ever loving get looked down on for leaving at quitting time. yeah you should, if you leave work on the table. you should leave when your work is done, and it's up to you to 1) finish your work in the allotted time 2) talk to management if you have too much work to complete in the allotted time 3) look for another job if management is purposely giving you too much to do in the allotted time Phone posted:The whole "unpaid overtime"/show up early/leave late stuff is a load of garbage. When working at the grocery store, the handbook and managers were super explicit about making sure that the lowest paid employees had their time managed to the second and weird rituals assuring that no minute is wasted from the nanosecond that you punched in. the problem is that all industries are different and he's trying to set a general standard which doesn't broadly apply. in the service sector working hard generally means turning out more physical output within a strict time limit. in the white collar world it means being more effective with your time to complete a project within time and budget parameters, even if you have to stay a little late to do so. in the executive world it means maximizing revenue disclosure: i work in an office and i shitpost all day because i can do my job while browsing the forums
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Oct 12, 2016 16:44
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Elephant Ambush posted:That's horse poo poo. It doesn't matter how hard you work if your boss hates you and just uses your work ethic against you without ever rewarding you. I've been in the corporate world for 20 years and most peoples' success comes from who they know. Networking is literally the most important thing you can do, not just grinding out shitloads of hours for table scraps. But I'm not saying he's right either.
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Oct 12, 2016 16:54
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"Networking" isn't as easy as all that. It's not just a matter of showing up at networking events and schmoozing. It's about having a reputation for being able to get things done. If you can't do the job, any amount of networking doesn't help much. If you *can* do the job but never network, you won't get any leads on new, better jobs. You need to be able to do both for success.
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Oct 12, 2016 17:00
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computer parts posted:Worth noting this only really applies to salaried. Hourly people are shuffled out the door as quickly as possible. I learned my salaried lesson loving quick when I was an assistant manager. I worked 50-60 hour weeks and was completely uncompensated. When I left, my replacement didn't do that and the place went to poo poo. They needed to hire two assistant managers, they were just too cheap to do so. Dexo posted:Protip. At least in IT. the Super hard working dude never gets promoted. Ever. This is so correct it shattered the meter.
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Oct 12, 2016 17:02
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BarbarianElephant posted:"Networking" isn't as easy as all that. It's not just a matter of showing up at networking events and schmoozing. It's about having a reputation for being able to get things done. If you can't do the job, any amount of networking doesn't help much. If you *can* do the job but never network, you won't get any leads on new, better jobs. You need to be able to do both for success. No one is talking about "Just don't do the job and network a bunch!"
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Oct 12, 2016 17:04
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WampaLord posted:No one is talking about "Just don't do the job and network a bunch!" As far as I can tell, most people are saying "Hard work is for mugs!" which is not my experience at all. Undirected hard work may be for mugs, but not hard work in general. If you stay late polishing a document that didn't need polishing, your boss won't give a poo poo. If you take it on yourself to learn a new piece of software that your workplace needs, but everyone else is a computer illiterate, your boss will probably be very appreciative. And you will gain valuable, marketable skills.
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Oct 12, 2016 17:09
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boner confessor posted:yeah you should, if you leave work on the table. you should leave when your work is done, and it's up to you to 1) finish your work in the allotted time 2) talk to management if you have too much work to complete in the allotted time 3) look for another job if management is purposely giving you too much to do in the allotted time Yeah, I agree. It took me a long time to switch mental gears from retail hourly to an office environment. The thing with Mike Rowe is that you have to think about the audience and who/what he's speaking to. I'm aboard the "not everyone should go to college" train and that there shouldn't be a divisive attitude toward blue collar jobs, but our economy is geared largely towards the service industry which is completely brutal from a labor standpoint. There's nothing to be gained outside of exploitation from showing up early and clocking out late from generic retail job #6208.
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Oct 12, 2016 17:13
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BarbarianElephant posted:Undirected hard work may be for mugs, but not hard work in general. If you stay late polishing a document that didn't need polishing, your boss won't give a poo poo. If you take it on yourself to learn a new piece of software that your workplace needs, but everyone else is a computer illiterate, your boss will probably be very appreciative. And you will gain valuable, marketable skills. And which of these is more in the spirit of what noted shitheel Mike Rowe is advocating for?
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Oct 12, 2016 17:13
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BarbarianElephant posted:As far as I can tell, most people are saying "Hard work is for mugs!" which is not my experience at all. Hard Work != Excessive uncompensated work. If you are training yourself on something else, that's not uncompensated work, that's work that is investing in yourself. It's work that increases your value. It's the equivalent of a business spending money in order to make investments to potentially make more money. Like right now in my free time I am working on becoming a MSCD Web Developer. My company will be able to use me to market itself which is a bonus for them, but I get a gain out of it as well, even if it's eating up my own free time. It's not me working for free as the MSCD has an immense benefit for me. If I'm working where the only benefit is for the company, there isn't a deadline and I get no compensation for it then fuuuuuck that.
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Oct 12, 2016 17:17
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The problem I see with Mike Rowe is not that he's wrong. Work ethic is a thing that needs to be learned. Working hard and being willing to take on additional responsibilities is a good thing. The issue is the larger issue of labor exploitation and the racist-tinged white reaction to it that is practically baked into the DNA of this country. We're founded on cheap land and cheap labor. To work for someone else has always been seen as a suckers game because you should instead be on the exploiting side of the equation. Labor has come in with wave after wave of desperate immigrants. To do labor then, is to debase yourself as a decent American. Not even starting in on black slavery.
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Oct 12, 2016 17:25
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Ron Jeremy posted:The problem I see with Mike Rowe is not that he's wrong. Work ethic is a thing that needs to be learned. Working hard and being willing to take on additional responsibilities is a good thing. also that "i work hard!" is kind of a meaningless statement that's used mostly to explain why other people don't work hard and therefore dont deserve the benefits / wages/ welfare / recognition / whatever that you do. like someone who's unemployed needs to work hard and get a job, but very few people actually enjoy being unemployed and having no money, and in the meantime they're working hard to find a job so why not give them benefits? no, they dont deserve it. so they get a job at mcdonalds, oh, sorry, that's not a real job, you aren't worthy of a living wage. so they get a job at the grocery store and join a union, woah now, unions just let people get lazy, don't you know you have to get an actual job where you have to work hard like me, where i work 90 hour weeks in the oil fields and all the fingers are torn from my hands at least twice a month etc. hard work is a good thing, but americans fetishize it as both a virtue only they posess and a flaw everyone else is sadly exhibiting. that's the tonal difference between mike rowe's day in the life of a coal miner poverty tourism and what a lot of us are arguing about itt boner confessor fucked around with this message at 17:33 on Oct 12, 2016 |
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Oct 12, 2016 17:30
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WampaLord posted:Mike Rowe is a total rear end in a top hat who wrote a screed about how you should suck up to literally any boss and give 110% on even the shittiest jobs, working unpaid overtime and just being a total slave in the hopes for a few meager crumbs to be tossed your way. Mike Rowes background is an actor. He really is no different then Sean Penn when he says some stupid poo poo thing praising Hugo Chavez. gently caress him.
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Oct 12, 2016 17:36
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There's also a problem of individual values vs collective values. "You need to work harder to achieve your goals" is absolutely good advice to an individual. It's absolutely not to a class of people. This is where folks on the left and right talk past each other, even when arguing with the best of intentions. Hard work and work ethic are good things, but they will not solve the problem of poverty for the entire working class.
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Oct 12, 2016 17:37
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