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Who What Now posted:We do, though. Isn't his exactly what the policy of George W. was ?
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Oct 12, 2016 19:19
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vintagepurple posted:World War Two Okay, post world war 2.
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Oct 12, 2016 19:20
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NewForumSoftware posted:They don't have to share my values. I'm not interested in imposing my values on other states. I'm much more interested in stopping the bloodshed in the near term. Structural changes are going to take time, and the way to do that is through diplomacy, not warfare. Casual support of murderous dictators: a leftist value bombing countries as good and cool as long as it isn't the USAF doing it: american leftism also, I thought you said we should support powers that share our values? Rated PG-34 posted:Okay, post world war 2. Korea
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Oct 12, 2016 19:22
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NewForumSoftware posted:https://medium.com/@PolitiFact/politifacts-annotated-transcript-of-the-second-presidential-debate-b54f45edeb99#.qyw8zdw8d So do you support proxy conflict or don't you?
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Oct 12, 2016 19:23
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vintagepurple posted:Casual support of murderous dictators: a leftist value Unfortunately the world isn't black and white and when it comes to regional conflicts we have nothing to do with, minimization of bloodshed should be the primary goal. It's not exactly a controversial opinion that Iraq would be better off if we hadn't removed Sadaam from power how we did. Who What Now posted:So do you support proxy conflict or don't you? Sure, just not with Russia, China, or any other major power that deteriorating relations would have devastating economic consequences and could potentially lead to World War 3.
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Oct 12, 2016 19:23
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NewForumSoftware posted:Unfortunately the world isn't black and white and when it comes to regional conflicts we have nothing to do with, minimization of bloodshed should be the primary goal. It's not exactly a controversial opinion that Iraq would be better off if we hadn't removed Sadaam from power how we did. So you think russian intervention somehow is killing less people?
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Oct 12, 2016 19:24
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vintagepurple posted:So you think russian intervention somehow is killing less people? I think the idea that reinforcing Assad could lead to less bloodshed in Syria makes a hell of a lot more sense than any plan the US has put forth. Also, allying with Iran was a very smart move and something the US simply cannot do (another reason we should allow our allies to fight their own regional conflicts, we can support them just fine without putting American troops half way across the world.
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Oct 12, 2016 19:25
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NewForumSoftware posted:I think the idea that reinforcing Assad could lead to less bloodshed in Syria makes a hell of a lot more sense than any plan the US has put forth. Sounds like you support the current policy towards Syria??
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Oct 12, 2016 19:28
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vintagepurple posted:Sounds like you support the current policy towards Syria?? My problem is with Hillary's stated foreign policy during the debates and her overall escalation of rhetoric with Russia. (I'll just ignore her actions historically but they don't paint a particularly pretty picture either)
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Oct 12, 2016 19:28
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How do you feel about Ukraine, NewForumSoftware?
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Oct 12, 2016 19:29
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I'm also curious how the Green Justice Party and its posters think the world would be if Putin's Russia could act with no rivals I'm sure there would be no bloodshed or illegal wars of conquest right All my eurojew relatives are really just begging Russia to come in instead of NATO
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Oct 12, 2016 19:31
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A Buttery Pastry posted:How do you feel about Ukraine, NewForumSoftware? That it's another example of a regional conflict that wouldn't have happened if we weren't trying to meddle where we didn't belong. Obviously Russia bears the vast majority of the responsibility for what happened, but it's not difficult to see the part NATO played as well. vintagepurple posted:I'm also curious how the Green Justice Party and its posters think the world would be if Putin's Russia could act with no rivals I'm curious as to why liberals feel that policing the world is somehow our responsibility? Even if it were, we've demonstrated pretty clearly over the past 40 years that we're incapable of doing so in a way that actually helps people. I know it sucks that Iraq would be a better place with Sadaam, but ignoring that reality doesn't help anyone. All of that being said, Hillary escalating rhetoric with Russia isn't going to help us impact positive change in Russia's political system, so whether or not you agree with Putin, attacking the country of Russia is a bad idea. It's just propaganda for Putin. NewForumSoftware fucked around with this message at 19:33 on Oct 12, 2016 |
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Oct 12, 2016 19:31
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NewForumSoftware posted:That it's another example of a regional conflict that wouldn't have happened if we weren't trying to meddle where we didn't belong. Obviously Russia bears the vast majority of the responsibility for what happened, but it's not difficult to see the part NATO played as well. What would happen to Ukraine without NATO? What exactly did NATO do wrong? Lol that you think I'm a liberal or a Hillary supporter.
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Oct 12, 2016 19:32
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NewForumSoftware posted:I'm curious as to why liberals feel that policing the world is somehow our responsibility? Because if you let everything go to poo poo, eventually something like a Pearl Harbor or a 9/11 happens.
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Oct 12, 2016 19:35
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vintagepurple posted:What would happen to Ukraine without NATO? What exactly did NATO do wrong? Do I really need to go into depths over every military conflict over the past 40 years? I'm not sure NATO did anything "wrong" in the immoral sense, but I think supporting the protests and eventual revolution has led to more bloodshed than there would have been had Yanukovych stayed in power. This is just the sad reality of the world we live in. I don't like it any more than you do, but I do think it's the case. WampaLord posted:Because if you let everything go to poo poo, eventually something like a Pearl Harbor or a 9/11 happens. 9/11 happened because of our military interventions. I'm all for war if we get attacked on our own soil by the military action of a foreign power ala Pearl Harbor.
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Oct 12, 2016 19:37
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"Leftists, trust me, vote for Hillary if you're anti-war, but also here is why America's wars are just and good" This is what people mean by "neocon" fyi
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Oct 12, 2016 19:39
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NewForumSoftware posted:Do I really need to go into depths over every military conflict over the past 40 years? I'm not sure NATO did anything "wrong" in the immoral sense, but I think supporting the protests and eventual revolution has led to more bloodshed than there would have been had Yanukovych stayed in power. This is just the sad reality of the world we live in. I don't like it any more than you do, but I do think it's the case. How did NATO "support" the protests?
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Oct 12, 2016 19:41
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vintagepurple posted:Lol that you think I'm a liberal or a Hillary supporter. The idea that we should be policing the world in the way we do today is a decidedly liberal one. vintagepurple posted:How did NATO "support" the protests? If you don't think the EU and US were providing a significant amount of logistical support to the protesters... it should be a clue that Hunter Biden is on the board of Burisma Holdings. If you don't think there was some quid pro quo I have some oceanfront real estate to sell you. NewForumSoftware fucked around with this message at 19:44 on Oct 12, 2016 |
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Oct 12, 2016 19:41
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"It is far better to live under crushing oppression forever than to not." -NewForumsSoftware, TYOOL 2016
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Oct 12, 2016 19:42
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NewForumSoftware posted:9/11 happened because of our military interventions. So for 9/11 we shouldn't have done anything in response? Obviously Iraq was a mistake, but should we not have tried to take out Bin Laden?
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Oct 12, 2016 19:43
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Reminder that EuroMaidan was about Ukraine joining the European Union. How's that working out?
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Oct 12, 2016 19:44
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WampaLord posted:So for 9/11 we shouldn't have done anything in response? Obviously Iraq was a mistake, but should we not have tried to take out Bin Laden? No, we should have aggressively pursued action against the Saudi government and cut ties with them since it was plainly clear that they were a major funder of the operation in the first place. Who What Now posted:"It is far better to live under crushing oppression forever than to not." -NewForumsSoftware, TYOOL 2016 When the not is a bloody civil war with no end in sight, yes.
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Oct 12, 2016 19:44
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It's insane to see these people arguing about how progressive they are unironically talking like republicans during the W years.
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Oct 12, 2016 19:46
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The_Rob posted:It's insane to see these people arguing about how progressive they are unironically talking like republicans during the W years. The crazy part is I've been a member here for 10+ years and many of the posters saying these things, like Who What Now, have always been progressive voices on the board. Really sad to allow themselves to be co-opted by the establishment to further the pursuits of the ultrawealthy.
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Oct 12, 2016 19:48
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NewForumSoftware posted:The idea that we should be policing the world in the way we do today is a decidedly liberal one. Bob le Moche posted:"Leftists, trust me, vote for Hillary if you're anti-war, but also here is why America's wars are just and good" I don't agree with either of those statements but you two idiots are too wrapped in your online ideological war to understand, you know, the way the world is. We can either take baby steps or no steps- you want proof of that consider how Bernie's Dem campaign influenced the Dem platform vs how the Greens or Justice Party or Socialist Party USA have. FDR vs. Jack Reed. I agree that radical change should happen in the US but you're doing it wrong, and lol at how you think the world would be somehow more peaceful without it- this is per capita the least bloody era of recorded history, and enforced liberalism via NATO and the UN has a lot to do with it. A lot of what you blame NATO for is actually regional dictators oppressing as best they can under the auspices of liberal international law. This is not great but it's better than tyrants running roughshod. gently caress, I have friends in Ukraine and they're all vastly more pro-american than anyone in this thread. Wonder why I also categorically oppose poo poo like the drone campaign in Pakistan and Yemen, the Iraq War, poo poo like that. gently caress your strawman bullshit. vintagepurple fucked around with this message at 19:51 on Oct 12, 2016 |
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Oct 12, 2016 19:48
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Bob le Moche posted:One thing I've noticed is that it seems that people outside the US actually know more about the history of American socialism than do people in the US. LOL, as a European I can tell you that people have zero idea that May 1st has it's origins in an event that happened in America. If this thread has confirmed anything, it's that Democrats should continue not giving a poo poo about third-party voters.
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Oct 12, 2016 19:48
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Did you know that Trump was secretly born in Kremlin? I demand to see his birth certificate
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Oct 12, 2016 19:48
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vintagepurple posted:I don't agree with either of those statements but you two idiots are too wrapped in your online ideological war to understand, you know, the way the world is. We can either take baby steps or no steps- you want proof of that consider how Bernie's Dem campaign influenced the Dem platform vs how the Greens or Justice Party or Socialist Party USA have. FDR vs. Jack Reed. I agree that radical change should happen in the US but you're doing it wrong, and lol at how you think the world would be somehow more peaceful without it- this is per capita the least bloody era of recorded history, and enforced liberalism via NATO and the UN has a lot to do with it. A lot of what you blame NATO for is actually regional dictators oppressing as best they can under the auspices of liberal international law. I didn't realize Henry Kissinger had a forums account "Things are better than they've ever been, it must be because we've discovered the best way to do things, HIT THE GAS PEDAL" Also FWIW I think we should also be using treaties like NATO to be putting pressure on countries like Turkey. Weird how they never want to remove Erdogan even though he openly funded ISIS. NewForumSoftware fucked around with this message at 19:51 on Oct 12, 2016 |
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Oct 12, 2016 19:49
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Bob le Moche posted:Look I'm sorry but in the rest of the world "leftist" means an opposition to capitalism in some way or another Opposition to capitalism is a leftist positions, not the leftist position. NewForumSoftware posted:How else can you take statements like these? Have you paid any attention at all to the last eight years? Obama has had a tough time because in a lot of situations, the president needs the support of a majority of Congress to enact their policies - and that means having the support of conservatives. It's absolutely indisputable that Hillary is going to be better at building consensus and gathering support for leftist policies than Bernie would. There's a reason I compared her to LBJ.
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Oct 12, 2016 19:53
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NewForumSoftware posted:I didn't realize Henry Kissinger had a forums account again gently caress your strawman- just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I believe the US should intervene always forever. My father committed suicide as a result of Vietnam service and I lost one cousin in Iraq and another french cousin in Afghanistan--not directly relevant but you're an rear end misrepresenting my argument and dredging up memories and gently caress you for portraying me as someone who supports any war such as those. I am in no way in favor of rampant militarism. Bye thread PS- I campaigned for Bernie, what did you do? Post screeds online? Thought so vintagepurple fucked around with this message at 19:57 on Oct 12, 2016 |
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Oct 12, 2016 19:55
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vintagepurple posted:
America helped divide Korea in the first place. First by not giving giving Korea the independence they wanted after they threw out the Japanese. Actually, they first wanted to reinstall the Japanese but met with popular uprising. Second, they proposed the dividing line to the Soviets. This policing is more like starting a fire and calling in your fire brigade to put it out.
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Oct 12, 2016 19:56
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Weird, a baby always seems to turn up whenever NewForumSoftware throws out his bath water.
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Oct 12, 2016 19:56
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Rated PG-34 posted:America helped divide Korea in the first place. First by not giving giving Korea the independence they wanted after they threw out the Japanese. Actually, they first wanted to reinstall the Japanese but met with popular uprising. Second, they proposed the dividing line to the Soviets. This policing is more like starting a fire and calling in your fire brigade to put it out. So it's our fault that the soviet half started a war?
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Oct 12, 2016 19:58
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vintagepurple posted:So it's our fault that the soviet half started a war? If you divide a country, what do you expect is going to happen?
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Oct 12, 2016 20:02
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NewForumSoftware posted:That it's another example of a regional conflict that wouldn't have happened if we weren't trying to meddle where we didn't belong. Obviously Russia bears the vast majority of the responsibility for what happened, but it's not difficult to see the part NATO played as well.
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Oct 12, 2016 20:04
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vintagepurple posted:PS- I campaigned for Bernie, what did you do? Post screeds online? Thought so I actually told everyone in this very thread. I did campaign for Bernie. But thanks for the drive by shitpost, don't let the door hit you on the way out. A Buttery Pastry posted:The role NATO played and continues to play is an excuse for Russian paranoia over the fact that it keeps scaring away its neighbors. Also, the conflict came about because Ukraine was slipping out of the Russian orbit and into the European one, because western Ukrainians decided that emulating the Poles was a better idea than emulating the Russians. Again, with Hunter Biden taking a board seat of a major Ukranian gas company, it's hard to believe the US/EU had no sort of agreements with the groups that were pushing the social movements in Ukraine. Again, not saying it's a bad thing in of itself, but it's hard to look at the situation now and say we did anything to help. What exactly did we gain by attempting to enforce the borders of a country where a sizable portion of the population that got annexed was happier to be part of Russia anyways.
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Oct 12, 2016 20:07
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NewForumSoftware posted:I actually told everyone in this very thread. I did campaign for Bernie. But thanks for the drive by shitpost, don't let the door hit you on the way out. You realize Bernie would have been more than happy to continue droning the gently caress out of ISIS, right?
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Oct 12, 2016 20:08
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WampaLord posted:You realize Bernie would have been more than happy to continue droning the gently caress out of ISIS, right? Actually yeah, I'm cynical as all hell. That's what I'm just asking for a bare minimum of lip service during the campaign. As I said previously I have no problem with "middle eastern conflict is a reality today and we're not going to do nothing", I have a problem with "we need to up airstrikes and oh by the way Russia is the real enemy in this war"
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Oct 12, 2016 20:10
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I don't know how the people who are pro-hillary because change must be slow and incremental figure that this change will happen if we just always align ourselves with power and don't ever speak up about the things that we want to change. Nobody is saying "I want full revolution now or nothing at all", but people are saying "I don't like what is happening now and would prefer a different thing, and I don't want to pretend that this is OK" and this triggers such incredible defensiveness, it's really stupid.
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Oct 12, 2016 20:18
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NewForumSoftware posted:Actually yeah, I'm cynical as all hell. That's what I'm just asking for a bare minimum of lip service during the campaign. As I said previously I have no problem with "middle eastern conflict is a reality today and we're not going to do nothing", I have a problem with "we need to up airstrikes and oh by the way Russia is the real enemy in this war" So, again, you don't actually give a poo poo about your supposed principals, you just want to pretend that you do.
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Oct 12, 2016 20:19
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