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Cojawfee posted:I really love the TOS Romulan ships. Thanks to this thread I now consider TOS Romulan ships to actually be stolen Federation designs.
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Oct 13, 2016 16:57
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Baka-nin posted:When I rewatched TNG it hit me that they probably should of revealed that he does have emotions, but because he's not human he doesn't feel or express them in the same way and since Data's standard for comparison was humanity he just didn't realise. But instead in Brothers we get the emotion chip and Sung being a weird recluse, who also didn't care that one of his `sons` killed all his neighbours. I feel like there's a real shift between "Data's basically an artificial person who just struggles to fit in" and "Data's a walking computer with a bunch of programs that simulate being alive" sometime mid-series, and I don't think the change is satisfying. The scene that leaps out to me is in In Theory, which is kind of a groaner episode in general, but where Data says "I wrote a special program about dealing with you" (and then later "it's cool I just deleted that program"). The problem I have is that Data was built to emulate human(oid) life, and humans don't - can't - just do that. Hell, even from the "walking computer" perspective, it still doesn't work, because if he's wanting to be more like a person then he ought to be leaving that "program" lingering around like a lot of human people would. I tend to agree with you somewhat, I think it should have been Data realizing over time that he's been having emotions without being aware of it. That said, my own opinions of the writers aside, I suspect the producers and/or studio would have strongly resisted that kind of long-term development, especially one which goes at one of the most distinctive aspects of the main characters ("we've got this robot that doesn't have emotions") and might ~confuse people who are watching re-runs~ or whatever garbage excuse they have.
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Oct 13, 2016 17:06
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TNG aired at a time when television was still strongly episodic. There may have been a few more serial shows (and shows like Babylon 5 would shortly make it a lot more popular) but the paradigm at the time was definitely not long-term character growth focused.
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Oct 13, 2016 17:22
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Even Cheers managed character growth, and that predates TNG. You can be episodic and still sneak in lasting character development.
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Oct 13, 2016 17:23
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Cojawfee posted:I really love the TOS Romulan ships. poo poo yeah. I had a minor freakout around christmas because I thought I'd lost my bird ornament. It's the best ship. edit: It's too bad we never really got 23rd century movie Romulans. I'd love to see what their ships would have looked like. And what the hell were those hideous green things in Enterprise? Shart Carbuncle fucked around with this message at 17:40 on Oct 13, 2016 |
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Oct 13, 2016 17:36
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Maybe it was a love letter to the fans.
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Oct 13, 2016 17:44
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Disguised as a poo poo sandwich.
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Oct 13, 2016 17:52
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Watched a bunch of ENT the other day. "Sleeping Dogs:" wake me when it's over. "Shadows of P'Jem:" Jeffery Combs, take me away from this place. I just want to watch DS9.  "Shuttlepod One:" I really like claustrophobic plots and character duet pieces. This one.... yeah, no. I had a lot of issues with it, and I don't know if I just missed something or if the episode really did have plot holes wide enough to drive a (star) truck through. Like, why did Trip and Reed see a smashed Enterprise on that asteroid? I kept expecting it to come around like a time loop type thing like that prequel to "Year of Hell" in VOY. But no. Trip and Reed get rescued and....  Did I miss something? It feels like I really should be missing something here. Besides that, it felt like they fried to hard, too early to set Reed and Trip at odds in the shuttlepod. I get how that could be interesting to see how they break down, get at each other, and find common ground over the course of their ordeal, but as it is Trip jumps down Reed's throat at the word go. It's like the show gave us this good premise for a character piece and used up all the tension in the first five minutes of the plot. Eh.Season one is pretty bad and is post-9/11 television as hell. Archer continues to be boring, and besides Phlox I'm not finding another character I genuinely like. It doesn't help that half of the time they are encountering things or people in the setting that make me think, "I want to know your story instead. Take me with you!" Jeffery Combs' Andorian character is the best example of that I can think of at the moment.
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Oct 13, 2016 17:54
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Railing Kill posted:Watched a bunch of ENT the other day. Supposedly the crater and wreckage were from an explosion while the Enterprise was trying to dock with a "Tesnian" ship.
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Oct 13, 2016 18:08
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Baka-nin posted:When I rewatched TNG it hit me that they probably should of revealed that he does have emotions, but because he's not human he doesn't feel or express them in the same way and since Data's standard for comparison was humanity he just didn't realise. But instead in Brothers we get the emotion chip and Sung being a weird recluse, who also didn't care that one of his `sons` killed all his neighbours. I always thought it was supposed to be intentionally ambiguous. Data sometimes reacts as if he does have emotions, but is that because he is programmed to feel that way or because he genuinely feels that way? Of course you can ask the same question about people too. I'm the only one in the universe that I know for sure feels emotions; there is no way to prove that everyone else isn't just a highly sophisticated robot emulating the pattern of emotions. So the real answer to whether Data has emotions or not, is whether he believes that he does, or not. Asking if he really does have emotions is the same as asking if any person really has emotions. It's impossible to truly know.
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Oct 13, 2016 20:04
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I just wanna know how the holodeck can just create a fully sentient being with emotions on the spot, but it takes Soong half his life to create an ~*emotion chip*~
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Oct 13, 2016 20:32
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Fister Roboto posted:I just wanna know how the holodeck can just create a fully sentient being with emotions on the spot, but it takes Soong half his life to create an ~*emotion chip*~ One is a big computer the other is tiny
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Oct 13, 2016 20:33
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Fister Roboto posted:I just wanna know how the holodeck can just create a fully sentient being with emotions on the spot, but it takes Soong half his life to create an ~*emotion chip*~ This isn't the case. Lore has plenty of emotions. It took Soong half his life to create emotions for Data that wouldn't cause him to be a sociopath. Look at when the computer creates emotions, it makes Moriarty, a sociopath like Lore.
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Oct 13, 2016 20:37
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Well it also made the doctor and handsome Irish dildo.
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Oct 13, 2016 20:41
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Yeah and the doctor was creating bio weapons and committing war crimes on the Warship Voyager.
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Oct 13, 2016 20:54
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I know some of you dorks are into tabletop RPGs. Playtest signups just opened for the new Trek game from Modiphius (of Mutant Chronicles fame): http://www.modiphius.com/star-trek.html There's some good talent on board, and it can't be worse than the LUG or Decipher games.
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Oct 14, 2016 01:38
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MrL_JaKiri posted:One is a big computer the other is tiny This computer is small. That one is far away.
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Oct 14, 2016 01:55
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Just watched the Borg two-partner and then the little afterward episode. That's some really good stuff there, good job Star Trek dudes. Patrick Stewart is so drat good he just elevates the whole show to a new level. I know that hardly needs to be said but there it is.
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Oct 14, 2016 05:14
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Which Borg two parter?
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Oct 14, 2016 05:17
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Best of Both Worlds.
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Oct 14, 2016 05:33
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Subyng posted:I always thought it was supposed to be intentionally ambiguous. Data sometimes reacts as if he does have emotions, but is that because he is programmed to feel that way or because he genuinely feels that way? Of course you can ask the same question about people too. I'm the only one in the universe that I know for sure feels emotions; there is no way to prove that everyone else isn't just a highly sophisticated robot emulating the pattern of emotions. Yeah its a total mystery... if your a sociopath, or a paranoid narcissist you think your in West World meets the Truman Show. I just buried my step father who committed suicide, I have had ample proof that other human beings feel emotion in the past week alone and so have you, no matter how hum drum your week has been. Stop trying to be deep you obnoxious prat. Cojawfee posted:Which Borg two parter? Seems pretty obvious he's talking about the Descent,  I mean come on dude.
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Oct 14, 2016 05:38
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Holy gently caress what happened to the Enterprise intro in season 3. It got even more out of place and upbeat while the "hooks" got even darker making a comical contrast.
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Oct 14, 2016 05:55
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Baka-nin posted:Yeah its a total mystery... if your a sociopath, or a paranoid narcissist you think your in West World meets the Truman Show. I just buried my step father who committed suicide, I have had ample proof that other human beings feel emotion in the past week alone and so have you, no matter how hum drum your week has been. Stop trying to be deep you obnoxious prat. I'm not "trying to be deep" you big dummy. It's basic philosophy, which also happens to be a central theme of Data's character. Can a machine be conscious (and by extension feel emotions) and how would we know? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_other_minds https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solipsism Solipsism can be extended to the idea that you can't be sure that anything outside your mind (ie the entire universe) exists. This commonly takes the form of "what if you're just living in a simulation? How would you know for sure?" Again a very common theme in sci fi, and the moriarty episode touched on that as well. Subyng fucked around with this message at 06:57 on Oct 14, 2016 |
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Oct 14, 2016 06:40
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Baronjutter posted:Holy gently caress what happened to the Enterprise intro in season 3. It got even more out of place and upbeat while the "hooks" got even darker making a comical contrast. "audience reaction to the intro song is pretty negative" "well, we're not pulling the song. what else can we do?" "*fart*"
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Oct 14, 2016 06:49
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Baronjutter posted:Holy gently caress what happened to the Enterprise intro in season 3. It got even more out of place and upbeat while the "hooks" got even darker making a comical contrast. Just wait until you get to the mirror universe episode in season 4.
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Oct 14, 2016 06:56
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Subyng posted:I'm not "trying to be deep" you big dummy. It's basic philosophy, which also happens to be a central theme of Data's character. Can a machine be conscious (and by extension feel emotions) and how would we know? Yeah citing philosophy isn't a defence of anything. Slavery is a philosophical concept, indeed its the backbone of Aristotle's concept of human civilisation, should I respect that too? If you can't defend something on its own merits pointing to its popularity amongst philosophy departments won't help you. The Panopticon was an interesting philosophical exercise which shows up in SF from time to time too. It's still functionally useless since the experiment is both impractical and we've already seen that people will publicly defy authority even in the knowledge that they will be discovered and punished. Oh and again slavery. I'm well aware of Solipsism, I'm guessing you aren't because what I wrote was the most obvious rebuttal to that particular form of naval gazing. One you've completely failed to rebut. If you can only be certain of your own thoughts and feelings then why are you doubting them? Solipsism is fundamentally contradictory and functionally useless. If my only tools for interpreting the world are my own inherent capabilities then I must accept what they're telling me without question, because I have no certainty to base that doubt. So no, I stand by my statement you have had plenty of evidence that other people exist and experience emotions every bit as deeply and distinct as you do. So no your not a Solipsist your just being intellectually contrarian. Or you are a sociopath who is incapable of empathy, or so narcissistic you don't consider other people as equal to yourself. And no Data is not an example of Solipsism, the Moriarty episodes were but not Data. At what point was he even hinted at being the only real entity in the show? The crux of Data's character was that his idolisation of humanity curbed his confidence and ability to act as his own individual and distinct life form. In every episode he experiences something new for the first time, his first impulse is to run to the computer and read up on what other species and cultures do, and then he learns to come up with his own way of doing things. That's individualism and the concept of difference not Solipsism because he always values the ideas and opinions of others. It could've been the foundation for a Solipsist story if Data learned little by little to stop relying on others, gradually became the main and eventually sole focus of the show and All Good Things Ended with the revelation that the Enterprise was a ship in a bottle, and Data was the only "real" thing about it. TNG as Saint Elsewhere, not surprised they didn't go in that direction myself. If anything Beverly was the Solipsist main character with the episode Remember Me, or Troi with all the times her memories were messed with by telepath aliens. Or Wesley with the Traveller, or Picard with those times he was duplicated, or Riker for those times Aliens messed with his head, or even Barclay.
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Oct 14, 2016 07:57
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Were you attacked by a philosophy professor as a child?
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Oct 14, 2016 08:04
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God I love Worf and Odo bickering.   Petty thievery like this never happened on the Enterprise! Stardate 46235.7, the Enterprise is taken over by one Daimon Lurin..
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Oct 14, 2016 08:25
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Disinterested posted:Were you attacked by a philosophy professor as a child? ???? Uh no? The bedrock of philosophy is the ability to demonstrate critical thinking, like most of what I've written is pretty basic philosophical criticism. I think your confusing philosophy with a cult. Edit: Something I've noticed in my TNG rewatch is that for all the trouble TNG had with romance and comedy it really nailed creepy terror. Even the lame duck Royale had a really creepy vibe at the beginning and the reveal of the skeleton. And Conspiracy was really gory. Makes me wonder what Trek horror movie would've been like. 
Baka-nin fucked around with this message at 09:08 on Oct 14, 2016 |
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Oct 14, 2016 08:57
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Baka-nin posted:???? Uh no? The bedrock of philosophy is the ability to demonstrate critical thinking, like most of what I've written is pretty basic philosophical criticism. I think your confusing philosophy with a cult. Parroting philosophical criticisms doesn't mean anything because just like the last three or four times you went apeshit in this thread, you misread someone's intentions and then wildly rambled about nothing important or meaningful. All Subyng did was state a basic philosophical concept that ties into Data's characterization and you went crazy with the accusations of "trying to be deep", when he was essentially being shallow on purpose. You're drowning yourself in a two-inch-deep puddle here.
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Oct 14, 2016 09:07
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What was the episode with the abducting clicky aliens, where they recreate the dentist torture chair in the Holodeck? That was creepy as hell
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Oct 14, 2016 09:52
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WeAreTheRomans posted:What was the episode with the abducting clicky aliens, where they recreate the dentist torture chair in the Holodeck? That was creepy as hell That was Schisms. drat creepy episode.
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Oct 14, 2016 10:00
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The_Doctor posted:That was Schisms. drat creepy episode. Yeah that owned. S6 best season
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Oct 14, 2016 10:03
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Hey gang, this episode of ENT is--Baka-nin posted:Yeah citing philosophy isn't a defence of anything. Slavery is a philosophical concept, indeed its the backbone of Aristotle's concept of human civilisation, should I respect that too? If you can't defend something on its own merits pointing to its popularity amongst philosophy departments won't help you.  McSpanky posted:Parroting philosophical criticisms doesn't mean anything because just like the last three or four times you went apeshit in this thread, you misread someone's intentions and then wildly rambled about nothing important or meaningful. Haha. Said it better than I could. Anyway, this episode of ENT, "Fusion," seems to be the obligatory "female character gets raped but not really" episode. I'm not all the way through it yet, but here was my thinking: 5:00: "These Vulcans eat meat and poo poo. Maybe they're Romulan?" 6:00: "That one guy is kind of creeping on T'Pol. This might be a mind rape episode." 10:00: "That guy is definitely a creeper. Probably going to be a mind rape in this goddamn episode." 15:00: "Yeah, this guy is a creepin' weirdo. Might just be regular old rape. Don't you loving do this, Enterprise." 20:00: *Mind rape dream sequence* "gently caress you, Enterprise." I don't think I'm oversensitive about unpleasant topics in TV. Plot is conflict, and I wouldn't mind a plot about rape if it a) were handled with the proper weight and consequence, and b) we're done to death. Unfortunately, there are more major female characters who are raped in one way or another in Trek than aren't. That's hosed up. It's at best lazy, and at worst callous. Here's a list of major female characters in Trek. Let's see which ones are raped, in one way or another, to my knowledge (which is by no means comprehensive and my memory isn't perfect): Nurse Chapel: yup Dr. Crusher:  Ezri Dax: nope! Jadzia Dax: nope? Guinan: nope! Capt. Janeway: nope! Kes:  , although I don't think they intended this to be as creepy as it wasMaj. Kira: yup Leeta: nope! Keiko O'Brien: nope! Dr. Pulaski: nope! Yeoman Rand: yup Ens. Hoshi: ??? Seven of Nine: yup Lt. Torres: yup (goddamn space elves) T'Pol: yup Deanna Troi: yup Lt. Uhura: yup Lt. Yar: yup...? Ten either get raped, get mind-raped, or a rape is attempted or plotted on them. Eight do not. Not good odds for being a girl-type person in the gleaming, optimistic future of Star Trucks.  Or, should I say, 
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Oct 14, 2016 12:30
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Wesley Crusher: Yup. 
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Oct 14, 2016 12:54
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I remember the episode where Troi was sleeping with that empathic negotiator dude I was sure he was casting some kind of space enchantment on her because he was so creepy and slimy and she seemed super into him immediately for no reason. But no, just a weirdly written/acted episode.
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Oct 14, 2016 13:31
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Baka-nin posted:Yeah citing philosophy isn't a defence of anything. Slavery is a philosophical concept, indeed its the backbone of Aristotle's concept of human civilisation, should I respect that too? If you can't defend something on its own merits pointing to its popularity amongst philosophy departments won't help you. Defense of what? What point exactly do you think I'm trying to defend? I honestly have no clue what the gently caress you're going on about. Furthermore, you didn't rebut anything. You can only observe other people's behaviour. There is no guarantee that they aren't just highly sophisticated automatons because the only mind you can experience is your own. That doesn't mean that I actually believe I'm the only person in the world whose emotions are real you giant idiot baby
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Oct 14, 2016 16:14
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Oct 14, 2016 16:30
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Someone update that "Enterprise A is garbage" gif with philosophy chat
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Oct 14, 2016 17:21
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Big Mean Jerk posted:"Enterprise A is garbage" WHO SAID THIS? I INVOKE THE USHAAN
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Oct 14, 2016 17:31
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