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Yeah, basically, nuclear war is a fundamentally completely insane act that ends all of civilization. Electing a reasonable person instead of a madman is the best preventative tonic against it.
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Oct 15, 2016 07:04
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straight up brolic posted:Voting 3rd Party is based off the calculus that you can afford to cast a protest vote so that you can tell your friends, family and coworkers about it for the next month as though it was a virtuous act and not you edging the Democratic system. 
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Oct 15, 2016 07:04
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Dexo posted:Seriously I'm all for criticizing Hillary. Please god if she sucks and decides to declare war on syria or some poo poo I hope to god she loving gets run against in the democratic party in 2020. If Clinton is unpopular enough within her own party to face a serious primary challenger in 2020 then that means the Dems have already lost the election anyway.
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Oct 15, 2016 07:05
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You guys I love Pitch so much. It would be a political act for you all to start watching it too so it doesn't get cancelled. I'm pretty sure it would end racism and sexism so you're monsters if you don't.
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Oct 15, 2016 07:05
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Boon posted:How brave of you Every goddamn vote counts. tweet trump. tweet.
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Oct 15, 2016 07:05
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NiceGuy posted:Hey guys! First off I just want to say, believe it or not, I really enjoy following this thread on my 3rd shift breaks, so thank you all for the easy to understand discourse. That being said, I've been seeing a ridiculous number of 'Hillary wins = war with Russia" posts on my Facebook lately and... that's loving ridiculous right? I mean I know it's ridiculous on its face but can anyone explain to me why? I haven't had much luck articulating it and it's driving me nuts. The chances of an actual ground war against Russia are low enough that you shouldn't worry about it, because of MAD and because, even if you take nukes off the table, no one wants to see just how effective we are at killing each other on a large scale with modern armies. When you go past that and into proxy wars, things get less certain. There are definitely rising tensions between the U.S. and Russia, and Hillary is probably the best person you could have on your team to play that game. But that doesn't mean she can avoid war entirely, or that war would absolutely be her fault if it did break out. The takeaway is that we're entering a period of incredibly stressed global tensions and the chances of the (relative) global peace that we've enjoyed in the first world maintaining are starting to slip.
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Oct 15, 2016 07:05
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straight up brolic posted:Voting 3rd Party is based off the calculus that you can afford to cast a protest vote so that you can tell your friends, family and coworkers about it for the next month as though it was a virtuous act and not you edging the Democratic system. Holy poo poo, can we put this at the top of the Jill Stein thread?
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Oct 15, 2016 07:05
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Dexo posted:Seriously I'm all for criticizing Hillary. Please god if she sucks and decides to declare war on syria or some poo poo I hope to god she loving gets run against in the democratic party in 2020. you're talking about a thread that, after every sanders supporter itt decided to vote for hillary, went to the sanders subreddit and started copy+pasting posts to argue with
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Oct 15, 2016 07:05
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ComradeCosmobot posted:I mean, don't get me wrong, SurgicalOntologist, I understand the appeal of finding a leftist candidate to reiterate a dislike for the more centrist, pro-business, Republican-compromised policies Hillary will undoubtedly enact, and I considered voting PSL/P&F myself. I am just compelled to specifically denounce La Riva once I learned about her support for Maduro the same way other goons are compelled to reiterate how completely god-awful Jill Stein is based on her mealy-mouthed words on vaccines. It's one of my few "single-issue voter" issues for largely sentimental reasons. That's fair and I'm glad you pointed it out to me. I'm not going to defend it but it doesn't take her down to Jill Stein levels for me. I might keep looking a bit longer though.
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Oct 15, 2016 07:06
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ComradeCosmobot posted:My polling place is literally next door to my apartment complex and never has a line. Well, maybe it does during a presidential year. Can't say anything about that yet. same here. it's actually a longer walk from my apartment to my mailbox than from my apartment to my polling place.
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Oct 15, 2016 07:06
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Trump's Twitter just now has a reminder to his followers to register to vote. The deadlines are past in many states.
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Oct 15, 2016 07:06
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Trump supporters are saying "hillary president = war" because there are attack ads in the last few days saying exactly that, complete with pictures of military weapons firing.
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Oct 15, 2016 07:07
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Instant Sunrise posted:Basically Michigan has a constitutional amendment that states that if a city is running a deficit, the state can appoint an Emergency Manager who takes over from and can do whatever without much the city government or city residents can do about it.
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Oct 15, 2016 07:07
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Business Gorillas posted:you're talking about a thread that, after every sanders supporter itt decided to vote for hillary, went to the sanders subreddit and started copy+pasting posts to argue with Why don't you go whine about it in the Bone Zone, berniebro?
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Oct 15, 2016 07:07
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A Fancy 400 lbs posted:I've been leaning towards voting Mimi Soltysik of Socialist Party USA like I voted for Stewart Alexander in 2012 (I've kind of regretted that since he got pretty pro-Russia after Euromaidan, but you can't really base your vote on something that hadn't happened yet), since I live in a super safe blue state where even the Republicans have been anti-Trump and they seem to be the most pragmatic socialist party out there without being small enough to be basically non-existent. But honestly, I'm probably going to end up voting Hillary because gently caress Trump, fascists need to be crushed and crushed hard. Sometimes voting your conscience means voting for someone or something you're not personally a big fan of because it winning will stop something worse from happening. If your conscience only stops at what the outcomes are for you personally, then you need to take a long hard look at your morals. I actually genuinely respected Stewart Alexander (in 2012; I'm sorry to hear he's gone pro-Russia) even if I didn't quite agree with his full-throated endorsement of FULL COMMUNISM NOW and couldn't vote for him in any case. What I do regret is not voting for Rocky Anderson instead of Jill Stein, but that was before she went all in on the anti-vaxxer, anti-Hillary stuff in a way she didn't seem to in 2012 and I thought that keeping a third party on the ballot was marginally more important than opposing the party out of principle for it's more woo elements. I'm sorry I let you down by giving her the confidence to try again, guys. 
ComradeCosmobot fucked around with this message at 07:12 on Oct 15, 2016 |
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Oct 15, 2016 07:07
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Polybius91 posted:I wonder if any Dark Enlightenment types live in Flint and if that little experiment in autocracy has made them rethink their views. I doubt it. These are people who are stupid and historically blind enough to believe Autocracy is *stable*.
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Oct 15, 2016 07:08
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Polybius91 posted:I wonder if any Dark Enlightenment types live in Flint and if that little experiment in autocracy has made them rethink their views. If they live in the area, they probably live in the well-insulated surrounding white suburbs, not giving a poo poo.
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Oct 15, 2016 07:12
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Dexo posted:Pretty sure this thread was mostly pro-sanders, at least the normal liberal posters. But it was pretty obvious Sanders was gonna lose in like April. Yeah, the vast majority of the forum was pro Bernie and the large divide was between those who were 100% on the Sanders train and those who supported Bernie but saw it as a means to impact the eventual Clinton Campaign in the general. Now that the Holy War has ended, the vast majority of the going ballistic is in regards to people who jump in to complain about Hillary being the greatest Hawk of our time or Republican-lite. After that it's people arguing that 3rd party protest votes are dumb in the American System and particularly bad this cycle. Followed by people explaining that while her vote for Iraq was wrong, it's probably not as wrong as you think, but it's a fair criticism. I think that's pretty much all the conversation about Hillary's issues as a candidate that really happens in here.
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Oct 15, 2016 07:12
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Night10194 posted:I doubt it. These are people who are stupid and historically blind enough to believe Autocracy is *stable*. It doesn't help that every time one such regime falls history texts always seem to follow it with descriptions of "economic miracles."
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Oct 15, 2016 07:12
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Penisaurus Sex posted:Iraq is the major one for me because, in my opinion, it demonstrates a failure on a different level than just making a bad mistake. She took information that anyone with a computer and an interest connection could tell was fabricated at face value, and made her decision on that. That comes down to whether or not you think elected representatives should go with the will of their constituents or with their own. The US was thirsting for some blood after 9/11 and if she voted against it she'd probably being going against voter sentiment. I don't know that, mind, as I don't have any good polls or surveys from back then. Still, that's the question: To whom are Senators beholden? Penisaurus Sex posted:The campaign that W. ran against Kerry was the most despicable thing I've seen on the national level. The older I get and the more I look back into stuff I just straight up missed growing up, I go from having a somewhat mediocre opinion of W. with most of my hate put in Cheney to thinking that W. was probably way more culpable than anyone thought at the time. I refuse, at this time, to believe that W. was a dumb puppet. That's too easy on him. He was pushed and prodded in one direction or another, but at some point the curtains gotta lift and the great reveal is that he's a man of above average intelligence that knows how to play people. He still had to say yes or no. He still had to sign off. He still had to make the appearances. If he was being pulled by Cheney then I've gotta ask what the gently caress has Cheney done since then? Is he everything he hoped to be? Powerful and obscure? My impression from that period is that Chenye got blamed for loads of poo poo that was Bush's responsibility because lol Bush so dum.
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Oct 15, 2016 07:13
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Again, I speak only for me and I'm not saying anything about what anyone should or shouldn't think. To me, you have a responsibility as a Senator to make an informed decision. I don't think she made one, and I hold that against her because it was a failure that led to the worst foreign policy decision in American history. She wasn't solely responsible for it, but she did play a part in it. It's the big reason I was hard in for Obama in '08 BTW. After living through W. and that weird time it was such a breath of fresh air to have a candidate who, not only was competent and had all the qualities that Obama has shown throughout his presidency, had no support of the Iraq war.
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Oct 15, 2016 07:16
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Admiral Ray posted:That comes down to whether or not you think elected representatives should go with the will of their constituents or with their own. The US was thirsting for some blood after 9/11 and if she voted against it she'd probably being going against voter sentiment. I don't know that, mind, as I don't have any good polls or surveys from back then. Well, for the sake of argument, isn't the whole point of a representative democracy to limit the full on craziness of the general public via politicians who can go, "yeah, nah."
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Oct 15, 2016 07:17
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Voting third party is a rejection of the status quo. When neither candidate represents your ideals, your morals etc voting for them is just toeing the party line. Democrats have absolutely no reason to make a leftward turn if people are going to be voting for them anyway. It's why we have a party of right wing crazies and their supposed counterparts being pathetic weak kneed centrists. Nothing will ever change. Vote your conscience. Also, if my posts bother you so much, feel free to ignore me!
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Oct 15, 2016 07:19
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Martha Stewart Undying posted:Well, for the sake of argument, isn't the whole point of a representative democracy to limit the full on craziness of the general public via politicians who can go, "yeah, nah." I should think that the key is more in the "representative" bit, which implies that they are supposed to represent people. Yeah, they can mute the craziness, but if a majority of people support something, you should probably get behind it in some way, or you're going to have some explaining to do in order to keep your job in 2 to 6 years. Given that Hillary got reelected in 2006, it seems to me that her Iraq vote represented her voters quite satisfactorily.
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Oct 15, 2016 07:20
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Penisaurus Sex posted:Again, I speak only for me and I'm not saying anything about what anyone should or shouldn't think. There is more to the world then one vote for the war, Bush made a deal with her for 9/11 relief money if she voted for something that was already going to happen and the people who elected her were pushing for it hard. Wanting to watch the rest of the world suffer and burn over something she admitted to regretting from over a dozen years ago is petty and just childish and doesn't make you appear smart or principled like you seem to think it does.
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Oct 15, 2016 07:21
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:You guys I love Pitch so much. It would be a political act for you all to start watching it too so it doesn't get cancelled. I'm pretty sure it would end racism and sexism so you're monsters if you don't. I would, but baseball is some boring rear end poo poo and a somehow still living relic of the time when we had so little to do that such a tortuously tedious thing could become the national pastime.
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Oct 15, 2016 07:21
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Stacks posted:Voting third party is a rejection of the status quo. When neither candidate represents your ideals, your morals etc voting for them is just toeing the party line. Democrats have absolutely no reason to make a leftward turn if people are going to be voting for them anyway. It's why we have a party of right wing crazies and their supposed counterparts being pathetic weak kneed centrists. Nothing will ever change. Vote your conscience. Most people don't look at Green or Libertarian party voters and think "We should try and get them on board." They look at them and think "Lunatics."
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Oct 15, 2016 07:21
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Penisaurus Sex posted:I won't be voting for President this year because every candidate is flawed in a way that I, personally, don't want to compromise on. I volunteered for Sanders, but I also wasn't crazy about his foreign policy either. But you'll be voting for down-ballot Democrats, right? You know that we need to keep the Senate fat and blue if we're going to be able to actually, y'know, govern.
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Oct 15, 2016 07:21
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Stacks posted:Also, if my posts bother you so much, feel free to ignore me! If people disagree with your posts, you want to be ignored instead of challenged. In a forum about debate and discussion. Okay, pal.
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Oct 15, 2016 07:22
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Stacks posted:Voting third party is a rejection of the status quo. When neither candidate represents your ideals, your morals etc voting for them is just toeing the party line. Democrats have absolutely no reason to make a leftward turn if people are going to be voting for them anyway. It's why we have a party of right wing crazies and their supposed counterparts being pathetic weak kneed centrists. Nothing will ever change. Vote your conscience. I don't necessarily disagree with you, in the abstract. My question to people who prefer the 3rd party move of getting leftist legislation passed is where is the evidence that you aren't wasting your time? It seems to me that the major leftist legislation of the 20th and 21st century was a concession given to labour because of the strength of labour movements and the credible threat the U.S. would become a communist state at some point in the 30's if the Great Depression wasn't dealt with. in the face of that evidence and the change that groups like Fight for 15 and labour unions have brought about, it seems like voting 3rd party is just as ineffective as everyone seems to say it is. I have no skin in how you vote, so vote however you want, but if you actually want to produce leftist change in your lifetime you need to be realistic about what tools you have available to you.
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Oct 15, 2016 07:22
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Instant Sunrise posted:same here. I live in Oregon and we have vote by mail. 
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Oct 15, 2016 07:23
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socialsecurity posted:There is more to the world then one vote for the war, Bush made a deal with her for 9/11 relief money if she voted for something that was already going to happen and the people who elected her were pushing for it hard. Wanting to watch the rest of the world suffer and burn over something she admitted to regretting from over a dozen years ago is petty and just childish and doesn't make you appear smart or principled like you seem to think it does. I don't think it makes me seem principled or smart at all, actually. It's a personal failing of mine, if you want to look at it that way, because I can't get over it. And yeah i'm going hard on D's and independents in my state and local races.
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Oct 15, 2016 07:23
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isk posted:If people disagree with your posts, you want to be ignored instead of challenged. In a forum about debate and discussion. Okay, pal. He's masturbating. RiotGearEpsilon posted:But you'll be voting for down-ballot Democrats, right? You know that we need to keep the Senate fat and blue if we're going to be able to actually, y'know, govern. I think he already said he was? If not then lol.
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Oct 15, 2016 07:23
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:You guys I love Pitch so much. It would be a political act for you all to start watching it too so it doesn't get cancelled. I'm pretty sure it would end racism and sexism so you're monsters if you don't. I can't stand sports or sports shows. Sorry, i have failed my intersectionalist sisters. 
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Oct 15, 2016 07:23
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Incidentally, the Washington Post has just posted the results of an investigative report that has uncovered the truth about Hillary Clinton. I strongly suggest that you guys check it out before making your final decision to vote for abuela. It might make you change your mind.
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Oct 15, 2016 07:23
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Stacks posted:Voting third party is a rejection of the status quo. When neither candidate represents your ideals, your morals etc voting for them is just toeing the party line. Democrats have absolutely no reason to make a leftward turn if people are going to be voting for them anyway. It's why we have a party of right wing crazies and their supposed counterparts being pathetic weak kneed centrists. Nothing will ever change. Vote your conscience. The Democrats have already made a leftward turn, that's what their new party platform represents. They need to be shown that, yes, that sort of thing is what we want, not rejected before they get a chance to do anything. Ideally they need to be given a landslide so they get control of both houses and can act on that platform, at least for two years before midterms happen and we lose them again.
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Oct 15, 2016 07:24
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Gyges posted:I would, but baseball is some boring rear end poo poo and a somehow still living relic of the time when we had so little to do that such a tortuously tedious thing could become the national pastime. No. Incorrect. Why do you hate America I Killed GBS posted:I can't stand sports or sports shows. I'll remember this when the revolution comes
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Oct 15, 2016 07:24
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Lamb Chowder posted:Could this mean that there's going to be a glut of Brexit style "Take that, powers that be" protest ..... I guess you'd call them non-votes, wherein people show up to vote against Trump but don't bother with anything below the Presidential row on the ballot? Turnout is probably going to be very low rather unlike Brexit. If Clinton wins, even by 5+ points, but the GOP keeps the Senate we're going to have 8 justices on the SCOTUS for the next several years because holy gently caress are the GOP going to run with the "mandate of the people to balance Clinton's agenda" bullshit.
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Oct 15, 2016 07:25
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Martha Stewart Undying posted:Well, for the sake of argument, isn't the whole point of a representative democracy to limit the full on craziness of the general public via politicians who can go, "yeah, nah." Penisaurus Sex posted:Again, I speak only for me and I'm not saying anything about what anyone should or shouldn't think. I can see that. Thanks for the answer.
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Oct 15, 2016 07:25
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The big thing in my mind re: iraq is that the administration were lying their asses off to a shocking degree. I was still a teen at the time, and the more I look back at how things actually went down, I'm repeatedly amazed. If you believed most of what they presented as the facts in their case for war, it wasn't completely ridiculous to vote yes -- and I can forgive someone for not believing yet that they would be so brazen (or acting on that belief, in any case), especially someone who needed to keep working alongside fellow politicians for decades to come.
Ditocoaf fucked around with this message at 07:29 on Oct 15, 2016 |
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