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Meh, She's gonna melt or turn out to be a robot like Peter's parents. poo poo the way they run around with LMD's I'd assume everyone was a loving robot if I was a super-hero in the 616.
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Oct 15, 2016 05:44
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Manatee Cannon posted:spider-gwen and normal gwen are different characters, one doesn't preclude the other They will probably meet though.
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Oct 15, 2016 05:45
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Skwirl posted:Is Ben Reilly back? don't gently caress with me on this poo poo. Not so far but the theory is the guy in the Jackal mask is actually Ben Reilly and not Miles Warren. Because we saw Miles Warren and he was old with a mustache, which the person wearing the Jackal mask didn't have.
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Oct 15, 2016 05:54
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renew your vows obviously refers to when peter and gwen were married in secret wars
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Oct 15, 2016 06:19
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Codependent Poster posted:Not so far but the theory is the guy in the Jackal mask is actually Ben Reilly and not Miles Warren. Because we saw Miles Warren and he was old with a mustache, which the person wearing the Jackal mask didn't have. After that thing where one of the Spider Queen's goons who had a blue hoodie turned out to be Captain America (because blue, red And white on the design), i'm entirely ready for someone to be hinted to be Ben Reilly but not because lol.
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Oct 15, 2016 06:29
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Why do they keep going back to clones? Every single Spider-man fan hates clones. Spider-man hates clones. I'm pretty sure all of the clones hate themselves too (it's okay, Kaine. We all still love you.) But this stupid rear end plot thread refuses to just go away.
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Oct 15, 2016 06:45
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it's easy and lets them bring back characters they killed off for free
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Oct 15, 2016 06:48
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But the clones rarely survive the story.
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Oct 15, 2016 07:12
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yes, so they can have whatever writer that wants to get to play with gwen and peter's relationship do that without ever having to change the status quo for longer than the clone story lasts
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Oct 15, 2016 07:22
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Pureauthor posted:Why do they keep going back to clones? I don't hate clones. They're fine if used right. Let's just wait for the Peter Parker clones to start popping up before we call this the worst thing ever.
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Oct 15, 2016 07:26
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Clone stories are Stan Lee's fault, by the way. He was so frazzled by being yelled at by fans who could not deal with Gwen's death (these people are still around today and complain that all of comics jumped the shark when she died, btw) that he demanded Gerry Conway and everyone else working on the Spider-man book come up with a way to bring her back. Gerry was totally against it, but he had no choice. His only condition was that in bringing her back, they didn't undo the story they had been working towards of Peter having to grieve her and start moving closer to Mary Jane. So she came back, but she was a clone with the real Gwen's memory. And at the end of the story, she didn't die again, she just realized that her being a clone and Peter moving on and all this weird poo poo meant that even though she had Gwen's memory, things were never going to be the same, and she had to find a new place in life, so she left. And the cloned Spider-man died, and while Peter had some existential crisis about if he was the original or not, he eventually decided it really didn't matter. And that should've been fine. But noooo.
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Oct 15, 2016 07:28
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Can't wait for the Gwen Stacy vs Gwenpool vs Spider-Gwen battle royal.
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Oct 15, 2016 07:39
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today I learned J Jonah was a Jr. I heard a Jameson married Aunt May, but never read any of it, so I thought it was Jr. 
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Oct 15, 2016 07:43
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So before the Clone Saga got totally out of control, one of the power goals was to bring back cloned Gwen Stacy and kill her off, because it really bothered the writers that there was a Gwen Stacy running around with all of the original's memories and who knew Peter's secret identity. It made it weird when Peter brooded on her death. After years of the complicated nonsense constantly derailed by marketing that was the Clone Saga, clone Gwen was still running around, unscathed. She didn't die until a Scarlet Spider/Spock team-up story very recently.
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Oct 15, 2016 07:45
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Yeah, and going by the back-up (and wow, Dan Slott just couldn't resist messing with The Night Gwen Stacy Died, could he?) shock of shocks - they're all just clones! Like, they explain the latest Gwen has DNA taken from her corpse so she remembers everything. So it's still just cloning, just with more, er...recent samples. So much for bringing back any of those characters, because shrugging and just accepting a clone as the original isn't usually how these things go (except for Ultimate Gwen).
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Oct 15, 2016 07:57
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Lurdiak posted:And that should've been fine. But noooo. Yeah, and that was, what, a two or three part story from the mid-1970s? You never really stop to think about how the Clone Saga was built entirely on a story from 20 years earlier which hadn't really been revisited in the interim, and came out at a time when trade paperbacks just weren't a thing, so woe betide you understanding where these clones were coming from if you weren't up on two decades of Spider-Man mythology. It's sort of like how you got all these Doctor Who stories in the 1980s written or influenced by the input of turbo-fans which were sequels to stories from the 1960s that a) had never been released on home video; and b) were often believed to have been wiped from the BBC tape archives. (There's one story from 1986 which is a sequel to a 1966 story which, at the time, was believed to no longer exist.)
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Oct 15, 2016 12:09
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Yvonmukluk posted:Yeah, and going by the back-up (and wow, Dan Slott just couldn't resist messing with The Night Gwen Stacy Died, could he?) shock of shocks - they're all just clones! Like, they explain the latest Gwen has DNA taken from her corpse so she remembers everything. So it's still just cloning, just with more, er...recent samples. So much for bringing back any of those characters, because shrugging and just accepting a clone as the original isn't usually how these things go (except for Ultimate Gwen). The new Prowler book is going to have an interesting hook. He's a clone, but he's effectively the same character, because he was brought back the page after he died. The other new wrinkle to clones this time around, is that they need daily pills to keep from degrading. I also liked that Peter is getting blamed by JJJ for his fathers death because he refused to let him get cloned organs.
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Oct 15, 2016 13:56
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Open Marriage Night posted:The new Prowler book is going to have an interesting hook. He's a clone, but he's effectively the same character, because he was brought back the page after he died. The other new wrinkle to clones this time around, is that they need daily pills to keep from degrading. I really don't see that going down any better than 'turns out the Peter Parker you've been reading about for the last 20 years or so was a CLONE!'. There is a difference, at least in Spider-Man's world, between the clone and the original - ever if you say 'well, this version has the memories of the original right up to his death', that's still not the guy people came to see. And I really don't think that there's going to be all that many people superenthusiatic about Hobie Brown, no matter how much Dan Slott has been trying to make him an integral part of the Spider-Man universe. He's just an copy of the inferior version of the character (sorry, Prowler, Spider-Punk is the Superior Hobie Brown). So we're not getting back any of the classic characters really back, just clones (I think the cloned Otto is going to turn out to be a different character to the Living Brain Otto. I wouldn't be surprised if he winds up cloning himself a new Parker body to be the Superior Spider-Man again). Edit: And JJJ has no reason to get mad at Peter, Jay was entirely conscious and in command of his faculties and chose to refuse treatment. It's not like Peter could stop him, he just argued it was a bad idea, and Jay agreed.
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Oct 15, 2016 16:29
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y'know of all the characters it must suck to be in the spider-man universe, it must suck to be gwen stacy the most
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Oct 15, 2016 16:53
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Wheat Loaf posted:It's sort of like how you got all these Doctor Who stories in the 1980s written or influenced by the input of turbo-fans which were sequels to stories from the 1960s that a) had never been released on home video; and b) were often believed to have been wiped from the BBC tape archives. (There's one story from 1986 which is a sequel to a 1966 story which, at the time, was believed to no longer exist.) I thought those were still lost.
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Oct 15, 2016 17:34
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Yvonmukluk posted:I really don't see that going down any better than 'turns out the Peter Parker you've been reading about for the last 20 years or so was a CLONE!'. There is a difference, at least in Spider-Man's world, between the clone and the original - ever if you say 'well, this version has the memories of the original right up to his death', that's still not the guy people came to see. And I really don't think that there's going to be all that many people superenthusiatic about Hobie Brown, no matter how much Dan Slott has been trying to make him an integral part of the Spider-Man universe. He's just an copy of the inferior version of the character (sorry, Prowler, Spider-Punk is the Superior Hobie Brown). You don't see it going down any better? "The Peter you've been reading is a clone! Here's the real one!" Style of clone story invalidates years of stories because the character you're reading moving forward had been off screen for the years while the unwitting clone was being published. This new story doesn't have any bait and switch revelations yet, and letting them retain the original characters memories makes them essentially the same character, with the caveat that they have to take the Jackal's drug to stay alive. There's plenty of characters that have had their minds put into clone bodies, and it's never brought up again that they aren't the original. Oh, and Hobie Brown is awesome in any universe.
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Oct 15, 2016 17:54
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Open Marriage Night posted:You don't see it going down any better? "The Peter you've been reading is a clone! Here's the real one!" Style of clone story invalidates years of stories because the character you're reading moving forward had been off screen for the years while the unwitting clone was being published. This new story doesn't have any bait and switch revelations yet, and letting them retain the original characters memories makes them essentially the same character, with the caveat that they have to take the Jackal's drug to stay alive. I'm not disputing the awesomeness of Hobie Brown. Also you talk about characters having been replaced by clones without any comment, but I can't think of any case off the top of my head (with the exception of the Marauders). I can't recall any case where the protagonist was replaced by their own clone, at least in comics. Just because they have all the memories of the host doesn't make them the same person, this was established back in the original clone saga.
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Oct 16, 2016 10:57
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Professor X is the example that comes to mind first.
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Oct 16, 2016 23:23
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I fuckin loved the Ben Reilly Spider-Man. I grew up on Spider-Man comics where Peter brooded and beat up Carnage and Demogoblin. Having a Spider-Man who was down on his luck but still made the best of it with a cheery attitude rocked. A new stable of characters that didn't have a lot of baggage (well the Thief's daughter I guess did). It felt fresh to young me. Then they killed him by returning the Green Goblin. I didn't know at the time everyone hated the Clone Saga. I thought that was a lame copout, to bring back a villain who should have stayed dead. I continued to collect Sensational Spider-Man for a few more months until I realized the creators were never going to mention Ben again. Sure Peter went back to actually having fun, but I felt cheated after collecting all those Ben stories. I was invested in Ben and also young and stupid. So I dropped Spider-Man. I moved onto Starman and Sandman Mystery Theater. I still love Spidey, but that saga really opened my young eyes on comics. Weird to think I'm the minority in the fact that getting RID of the clone saga had me drop Spider-Man. Of course now I don't care, so much time has passed. It would be nice to have Ben get a good send-off, instead of constantly dying or being the butt-end of a joke.
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Oct 17, 2016 05:29
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Open Marriage Night posted:Professor X is the example that comes to mind first. When was this? And that almost certainly involved telepathy, not just 'cloned and everyone acts like it's the same person'. You could make a case for Otto, I guess, but even then he's a digital copy and the 'real' Otto died in SSM.
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Oct 17, 2016 14:04
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Yvonmukluk posted:When was this? And that almost certainly involved telepathy, not just 'cloned and everyone acts like it's the same person'. You could make a case for Otto, I guess, but even then he's a digital copy and the 'real' Otto died in SSM. When he gets brooded, right? The Shi'Ar clone him a clean body (with working legs!) and he jumps across.
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Oct 17, 2016 16:14
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Test Pattern posted:When he gets brooded, right? The Shi'Ar clone him a clean body (with working legs!) and he jumps across. Yeah though his power set makes it easier to accept.
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Oct 17, 2016 20:50
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Dang, I've been listening to Jay & Miles X-Plain the X-Men for ages and I can't believe I forgot that bit. I remember the Brood Clones of the X-Men who Magik de-infested who then never appeared again, but not that. Yeah, in that case he literally is jumping his consciousness into a new body, not a Jackal-style 'clone of dead person with all their memories up to point X'. That's been settled - at least Spider-Man wise - as being a distinct individual. So, Octobot-as-Otto would technically (it gets finicky with the whole digital backup thing) count as Otto because he's literally transferring his mind into the clone, but the others are just copies.
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Oct 17, 2016 21:26
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It's always really odd to me in a universe where souls are demonstrably proven to exist that digital mind clones don't cause more fuckups. it means either someone figured out how to digitize the soul or they are weird soulless bodies running around fueled entirely by false self or somehow souls are created out of nothing
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Oct 17, 2016 21:30
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ImpAtom posted:It's always really odd to me in a universe where souls are demonstrably proven to exist that digital mind clones don't cause more fuckups. it means either someone figured out how to digitize the soul or they are weird soulless bodies running around fueled entirely by false self or somehow souls are created out of nothing Digital minds and characters who have supernatural possession-type powers like Sandman lead one to conclude that there is the terrifying prospect of minds being potentially immortal. How does a brain in a jar stop thinking or kill itself?
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Oct 17, 2016 21:40
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Dunno if any of you web-heads have already seen this, but this person made some really nice spider-man comics. There's one where Spider-Man walks a lady home and talks to her about cowboy bebop because he is a sweet-hearted nerd.
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Oct 18, 2016 21:58
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Yvonmukluk posted:Dang, I've been listening to Jay & Miles X-Plain the X-Men for ages and I can't believe I forgot that bit. I remember the Brood Clones of the X-Men who Magik de-infested who then never appeared again, but not that. Was that the weird one-off New Mutants issue around FotM time? I remember wondering at the time what the hell is going on, why are we suddenly with Kitty and Lockheed in space fighting sleazoids again, it just seemed totally out of nowhere given everything actually happening in the series at that time. Fabulous cover, mind.
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Oct 24, 2016 11:46
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Please remember: these aren't clones. We're told over and over that they're not clones. They are, in fact, a made up word that's a synonym for clones.
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Oct 24, 2016 16:51
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Sentinel Red posted:Was that the weird one-off New Mutants issue around FotM time? I remember wondering at the time what the hell is going on, why are we suddenly with Kitty and Lockheed in space fighting sleazoids again, it just seemed totally out of nowhere given everything actually happening in the series at that time. I think it fell in the gap between FotM and Inferno, yeah. I think it was to explain how Magik went away for a bit in an earlier story before she came back in the space armor with no explanation.
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Oct 24, 2016 17:53
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I am really tired of them trotting out clones of Gwen Stacy every time the jackal is involved with anything. It's about as bad as sinister and his fleet of Scott and jean clones.
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Oct 27, 2016 16:52
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Rubiks Pubes posted:I am really tired of them trotting out clones of Gwen Stacy every time the jackal is involved with anything. It's about as bad as sinister and his fleet of Scott and jean clones. To be fair, cloning Gwen Stacy is literally why the Jackal was created, because Conway was being pressured to bring back Gwen by Marvel and this was his 'out'. And Sinister is blatantly a Scott/Jean shipper.
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Oct 27, 2016 18:12
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Yvonmukluk posted:And Sinister is blatantly a Scott/Jean shipper. Now I understand why he's always depicted as an insane, depraved nutjob.
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Oct 27, 2016 19:07
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Rubiks Pubes posted:I am really tired of them trotting out clones of Gwen Stacy every time the jackal is involved with anything. It's about as bad as sinister and his fleet of Scott and jean clones. Like that Garth Ennis "superhero" Dogwelder, maybe Jackal needs a name change. Beware the guile of the gruesome... Gwencloner!
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Oct 27, 2016 19:10
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Most of those times it was just the one Gwen clone.
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Oct 27, 2016 19:38
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Petercloner!
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Oct 27, 2016 19:42
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