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Last of Us had pretty good writing for a video game but unfortunately it did not have very good gameplay for a video game. It's for that reason that I think it's not a great game. Not a bad game, mind you. Just "good I guess". It's overrated.
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Oct 19, 2016 18:48
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ImpAtom posted:That's a really disingenuous way of phrasing the story and a really bad way of looking at writing. I realize now that this was just me expecting the game to be something it was never supposed to be and that I can't fault the game for wanting to tell a story other than the story I was hoping for. I just thought that the cordyceps thing would be important in some way. I mean, why not just make the game about regular zombies if the cause of the zombies wasn't going to have an impact on the story? I do think my other complaints still stand, though.
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Oct 19, 2016 18:49
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Is there a list of games that the internet hasn't decided is bad after 3 months
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Oct 19, 2016 18:51
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Chomp8645 posted:Last of Us had pretty good writing for a video game but unfortunately it did not have very good gameplay for a video game. It's for that reason that I think it's not a great game. 'Overrated' is the biggest non-critism in existence and means nothing other than 'people like it more than I think they should'.
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Oct 19, 2016 18:52
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Help Im Alive posted:Is there a list of games that the internet hasn't decided is bad after 3 months Yeah, here it is:
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Oct 19, 2016 18:53
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Help Im Alive posted:Is there a list of games that the internet hasn't decided is bad after 3 months here are some good games off the top of my head: metal gear solid 3 majora's mask nuclear throne star fox 64 sonic adventure 2
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Oct 19, 2016 18:53
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Help Im Alive posted:Is there a list of games that the internet hasn't decided is bad after 3 months Yes, lots of them but you have to leave SA to find them.
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Oct 19, 2016 18:53
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Sakurazuka posted:'Overrated' is the biggest non-critism in existence and means nothing other than 'people like it more than I think they should'. Saying something is overrated is definitely overrated.
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Oct 19, 2016 18:53
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Sakurazuka posted:'Overrated' is the biggest non-critism in existence and means nothing other than 'people like it more than I think they should'. I just mean it to mean "people say this game is A+ or that it is game of the year, but I just thought it was ok". That was my message.
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Oct 19, 2016 18:54
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Apparently people are saying that it's secretly a bad game, I don't know who to believe
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Oct 19, 2016 18:55
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Help Im Alive posted:Is there a list of games that the internet hasn't decided is bad after 3 months Elevator Action
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Oct 19, 2016 18:58
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Help Im Alive posted:Is there a list of games that the internet hasn't decided is bad after 3 months The only games the internet doesn't end up hating in the end are the ones they hated from the get go and end up coming around on long after the fact.
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Oct 19, 2016 19:01
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A handful of people not liking a game is not the same as the entire Internet hating it.
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Oct 19, 2016 19:07
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FanaticalMilk posted:The only games the internet doesn't end up hating in the end are the ones they hated from the get go and end up coming around on long after the fact. Looking forward to the redemption of No Man's Sky.
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Oct 19, 2016 19:07
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If video games are good, how can individual games be bad?
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Oct 19, 2016 19:11
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Help Im Alive posted:Is there a list of games that the internet hasn't decided is bad after 3 months RE4 and the first Metroid Prime I guess those are a little old to test this theory though Fallout: New Vegas?
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Oct 19, 2016 19:12
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There's like 3 or 4 great games released a month
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Oct 19, 2016 19:13
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In Training posted:There's like 3 or 4 great games released a month I also closely watch the "Anime" tag on Steam.
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Oct 19, 2016 19:14
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LoveBoatCaptain posted:I mean, why not just make the game about regular zombies if the cause of the zombies wasn't going to have an impact on the story? The cause of the zombies did have an impact on the story. Ellie's immunity is a plot point. It is, however, not relevant where it came from. The only relevant thing is that Ellie is immune and that sparks Joel to take an action he normally wouldn't which allows for their development to happen. They could have written this around regular zombies but why not do something a bit more original with it? It allows them more flexibility with interesting set pieces and monster designs. LoveBoatCaptain posted:I do think my other complaints still stand, though. They're similarly sort of weird. Like you straight-up say "this bad person is introduced, ergo that means this other person is the Good Guy" but that's pretty much a straight rejection of how a lot of fiction works. A bad character existing doesn't mean you're supposed to view another character as the Good Guy, especially someone like Joel. In particular that entire chapter was explicitly not about Joel and instead put you in control of Ellie for the vast majority of it. He's a 'worse person' than Joel but that isn't to emphasize that Joel is a better person. Likewise I can't disagree strongly enough with your division of "movie writing" and game writing. It seems more like what you're doing is placing emphasis on world building above all else. Which makes sense in that world building is one of the things games do strongly but it can't be all they do. If you only do world building and never anything else you end up with an extremely limited and narrowly-focused set of storytelling opportunities. Every game shouldn't be "cleanup the mess" and every protagonist shouldn't be a nobody. Not only does that strongly limit design choices but it ignores the way games can cleverly influence the player to make them feel certain ways. LIke for example here: God of War 3 is by no means a well-written game but it does a very clever thing. The final boss fight against Zeus is the climax of three games of utter bullshit against an arrogant poo poo. When you finally get him down to the end of his life you're prompted to do a QTE involving mashing O to smash his head in. What the game doesn't do is tell you that this goes on as long as you mash O, and a lot of people who play the game will smash for a long time before gradually realizing the trick once the adrenaline wears off. It's a smart gameplay trick which briefly puts the player into the same "smash smash smash... ah, it's over" sort of mindset as the character. There's a lot of small things games do which people never really think about but which serve the goal of using existing characterization and gameplay mechanics to enhance a story in a way that you couldn't do in a movie. To use The Last of Us as an example again there's a tragic scene where a character gets turned into a zombie. Prior to that there's a sniper sequence where you had to protect that character. Logically you probably know that the story is immutable and unchanging but a good chunk of people have admitted they worried they screwed up there and it was there fault the bad thing happened. It's an illusion but game writing thrives on illusions. That is something that a movie couldn't do. Someone watching a movie won't ever get the feeling "poo poo, could I have stopped this?" which games thrive on. This is also why it's kind of a flaw to look at a game and go "Well, nothing REALLY changes." That's true. It doesn't more often than not. However where a game succeeds is in if it provides you, even for a moment, the idea of guilt, frustration, anger, excitement or other emotions born from the interactive elements. It is why something like Until Dawn can succeed despite being almost unchanging if you look at it from the outside. In the heat of the moment it can provide an illusion and succeed.. (I'm also not trying to pile on you or anything, I just think it's an interesting subject to discuss.)
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Oct 19, 2016 19:16
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The best example of that is the MGS3 final boss which is still the most striking moment in gaming I've ever experienced
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Oct 19, 2016 19:23
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Expeditions conquistadors
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Oct 19, 2016 19:30
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Snooze Cruise posted:Elevator Action https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNnqK226mLc
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Oct 19, 2016 19:32
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In Training posted:The best example of that is the MGS3 final boss which is still the most striking moment in gaming I've ever experienced And the worst example is The Third Birthday trying to copy this and forcing you to kill off the series.
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Oct 19, 2016 19:52
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ImpAtom posted:Like you straight-up say "this bad person is introduced, ergo that means this other person is the Good Guy" but that's pretty much a straight rejection of how a lot of fiction works. A bad character existing doesn't mean you're supposed to view another character as the Good Guy, especially someone like Joel. In particular that entire chapter was explicitly not about Joel and instead put you in control of Ellie for the vast majority of it. He's a 'worse person' than Joel but that isn't to emphasize that Joel is a better person. That's not exactly what I was trying to say. He just felt so over the top unrealistically evil that it just felt jarring to me, especially considering that every other character up to that point had felt a lot more real than most video game characters typically do. I might have been wrong in thinking they did it to make Joel's actions seem more acceptable by comparison though. ImpAtom posted:Likewise I can't disagree strongly enough with your division of "movie writing" and game writing. It seems more like what you're doing is placing emphasis on world building above all else. Which makes sense in that world building is one of the things games do strongly but it can't be all they do. If you only do world building and never anything else you end up with an extremely limited and narrowly-focused set of storytelling opportunities. Every game shouldn't be "cleanup the mess" and every protagonist shouldn't be a nobody. Not only does that strongly limit design choices but it ignores the way games can cleverly influence the player to make them feel certain ways. I'm not saying every game needs to be like that, or that there are no similarities between movie writing and game writing, just that writing a game exactly like you'd write a movie isn't a great idea. It was just an example of great video game writing that wouldn't have been as good if you tried doing the same thing in a movie. Metal Gear Solid 3 and that God of War 3 scene are great because they tell a story in a way you couldn't tell a story with movie, but the scene from TLOU you mention just doesn't feel as good to me. I don't like when a game forces you to protect someone who's only going to die a few scenes later, because it makes my actions feel pointless, especially in a game like TLOU where I'm not enjoying the gameplay. It could have worked if the game wasn't so predictable, but at that point it was so obvious to me that something horrible was going to happen to anyone you met that I had a hard time connecting with any of the characters. ImpAtom posted:(I'm also not trying to pile on you or anything, I just think it's an interesting subject to discuss.) I don't see people disagreeing with me as "piling on" so no worries. I wouldn't have said anything if I didn't want to hear dissenting opinions, and I feel I understand why people like the game a bit better, even if I don't really agree.
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Oct 19, 2016 20:09
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What's the Metal Gear Solid 3 scene people are referring to, I can't remember how it ends except the Boss boss fight
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Oct 19, 2016 20:12
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they're probably talking about when ocelot juggles three guns and makes you choose one to shoot and the jumps out of a plane into a lake
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Oct 19, 2016 20:13
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I get chills just thinking about it
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Oct 19, 2016 20:18
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Yikes, I don't remember that at all That's on me though
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Oct 19, 2016 20:23
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it's a very important scene because we learn big boss' name is john. which is a plain name, but adamska (ocelot) won't forget it
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Oct 19, 2016 20:33
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That does sound very important
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Oct 19, 2016 20:34
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oddium posted:they're probably talking about when ocelot juggles three guns and makes you choose one to shoot and the jumps out of a plane into a lake Lol
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Oct 19, 2016 20:47
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Jay Rust posted:What's the Metal Gear Solid 3 scene people are referring to, I can't remember how it ends except the Boss boss fight It's that boss fight where the camera cranes up out of a cutscene and holds in a long shot and the game won't progress until you hit square and pull the trigger and kill the boss
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Oct 19, 2016 20:48
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I thought the gameplay in The Last of Us was really, really good and fun. I like being stealthy though so I guess it wouldn't be as good if you want to shoot everything.
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Oct 19, 2016 21:20
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I like the bit in Bastion where the guy betrays you and ruins the floating island you spent the last four hours repairing, and then you have to repair it again, so by the time you get around to going after him you're really frustrated with him and all his buddies who have been loving with you all game long. Like, it's not a particularly complicated example of what we're talking about in regards to controlling the player's emotions via gameplay, but it's one that worked well for me. Games (or narrative/role playing games at least) are interesting in how much they need to make the player want to continue, because it's an active medium, and how that intersects with the stories that the games end up telling, especially because the story also has to take into account what a player can do within the game. Killing enemies is a system that is easy to programme so it's had an entrenched, longstanding influence on video game design, and as a result of this there are so many narratives that push a player to have a desire to kill someone because having the emotional climax of the story be something the player can carry out themselves is going to be more satisfying than watching a cutscene.
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Oct 19, 2016 21:21
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PantsBandit posted:I thought the gameplay in The Last of Us was really, really good and fun. I like being stealthy though so I guess it wouldn't be as good if you want to shoot everything. i would have liked more enemy and environmental puzzle variety. also maybe one less underground sewer/tunnel section and one more section as cool and different as the sniper nest
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Oct 19, 2016 21:29
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Red Bones posted:I like the bit in Bastion where the guy betrays you and ruins the floating island you spent the last four hours repairing, and then you have to repair it again, so by the time you get around to going after him you're really frustrated with him and all his buddies who have been loving with you all game long. Like, it's not a particularly complicated example of what we're talking about in regards to controlling the player's emotions via gameplay, but it's one that worked well for me. This is a good post. I found the stories of SNES RPGs to be incredibly compelling to me because they were often hidden behind frustrating or obtuse mechanics that made me work for them, so to my young mind that automatically made them better than, say, the story of a book that you could just read and there it was. You actually had to engage with and work through the systems to find out what would happen, and that was really cool to me. Now, I have better taste so I prefer good writing and that's not very common in games, but it still adds something magical to a game when the writing is good and you earned the chance to see the next cutscene or find something cool - without looking it up on youtube. Like figuring out the lore in Dark Souls or something.
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Oct 19, 2016 21:33
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Red Bones posted:I like the bit in Bastion where the guy betrays you and ruins the floating island you spent the last four hours repairing, and then you have to repair it again, so by the time you get around to going after him you're really frustrated with him and all his buddies who have been loving with you all game long. Like, it's not a particularly complicated example of what we're talking about in regards to controlling the player's emotions via gameplay, but it's one that worked well for me. When games have a big bad guy that frustrates you so much on a mechanical and narrative level that you want to punch them in the face and then the game makes the boss fight against them really good, I think it's a sign of something done right. Problem is, off the top of my head there aren't a lot of great examples of this. MGS1/3 and Final Fantasy 6 are ones that readily come to mind.
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Oct 19, 2016 21:39
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StrixNebulosa posted:This is a good post. I think there's a middle ground, though. A lot of the story in Chrono Trigger is hidden behind obfuscation (or, unfortunately, bad translation), but something like To the Moon (while still worthwhile, I think), is too much like a guy who obviously wanted to make a movie not having the resources and just writing the dialogue into RPGMaker. There's something to having an individual user "discover" the story through the more gamey aspects.
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Oct 19, 2016 21:39
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bloodychill posted:When games have a big bad guy that frustrates you so much on a mechanical and narrative level that you want to punch them in the face and then the game makes the boss fight against them really good, I think it's a sign of something done right. Problem is, off the top of my head there aren't a lot of great examples of this. MGS1/3 and Final Fantasy 6 are ones that readily come to mind. lmao if you didn't want kefka to win at least a little bit in FF6 though
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Oct 19, 2016 21:40
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https://twitter.com/YourFriendMario/status/788789936505913344 gah
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Oct 19, 2016 21:44
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