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Thank goodness you have pointed Somalia, the place with no tyrannical socialist government to impede your islamist gang from raping and stealing whatever paltry food you can from your neighbour.
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Oct 20, 2016 15:45
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TheLovablePlutonis posted:Thank goodness you have pointed Somalia, the place with no tyrannical socialist government to impede your islamist gang from raping and stealing whatever paltry food you can from your neighbour. 
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Oct 20, 2016 15:46
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TheLovablePlutonis posted:Thank goodness you have pointed Somalia, the place with no tyrannical socialist government to impede your islamist gang from raping and stealing whatever paltry food you can from your neighbour. 
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Oct 20, 2016 15:51
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Bitch am I wrong?
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Oct 20, 2016 15:54
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TheLovablePlutonis posted:Thank goodness you have pointed Somalia, the place with no tyrannical socialist government to impede your islamist gang from raping and stealing whatever paltry food you can from your neighbour. quote:Cuba is kinda fascinating to me, and I wish we could get more "moderate" perspectives on the country since it's arguably the only legit Communist place we have right now. From some stuff I got from people that went there, the country is pretty impoverished and information/supplies are very limited, but also that people tend to not be HORRENDOUSLY impoverished (less social inequity) and it's not North Korea-levels of repressive cult of personality (although there is political repression). Plus their public systems kinda work? Cuba isn't the only communist country left. North Korea and Laos are still communists, and both are hellholes. As for the public system in Cuba. First, it's like that joke about how in the 30's German and Italian rains "at least ran on time." Having said that, a lot of the perceptions about the Cuban system are based on outright lies, like the ones presented by Michael Moore in Sicko (some more info here: http://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/article1928212.html ). Not only that, the bloated infrastructure of the Cuban system, with a tremendous participation in the economy has resulted in an inefficient system that can only build poverty for the majority. Even Cuban politicians criticize the system as obsolete and inefficient (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/apr/18/cuba-congress-economy-obsolete-mentality) but are afraid of allowing too much of a private sector, since otherwise the scary gringos would influence the otherwise vibrant inefficient one party dictatorship.
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Oct 20, 2016 15:54
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I think you might have some underlying issues regarding Somalia and Africans in general, but I'm hoping to hear more.
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Oct 20, 2016 15:56
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TheLovablePlutonis posted:Bitch am I wrong? Somalia was a so-called socialist country until it completely collapsed.
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Oct 20, 2016 15:57
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Friendly Humour posted:Cuba has a combined bandwidth of 300mb/s. Somalia has more than 80 gb/s. How do their scientists torrent poo poo? What happens when a new version of MATLAB comes out and all of their universities want to pirate it at once? I suppose this is evidence that socialists are really good at handling coordination problems. Tacky-Ass Rococco fucked around with this message at 16:01 on Oct 20, 2016 |
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Oct 20, 2016 15:58
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Tacky-rear end Rococco posted:How do their scientists torrent poo poo? What happens when a new version of MATLAB comes out and of their universities want to pirate it at once? Cuba is a small country, they simply have one of them torrent it and distribute it to the others using flash drives
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Oct 20, 2016 16:00
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Squeegy posted:Cuba is a small country, they simply have one of them torrent it and distribute it to the others using flash drives In true Cuban tradition, they use floppy disks. EDIT: Actually, I've heard of this being the case in some Belorussian governmental offices.
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Oct 20, 2016 16:05
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Non Serviam posted:Living in a tyrannical undemocratic government under economic policies that have never worked? No, of course, that's not the root cause of the problem. Interesting that you believe, against all historical evidence, that only free societies can have a high standard of living or develop economically. Anyways, Botswana should be as rich as the United States by now if your elaborate and highly empirical theory of economic development were true, where all you need is 1) blind faith in the Invisible Hand of God-Market, and 2) restricting police murders to ethnic and sexual minorities.
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Oct 20, 2016 16:06
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Brainiac Five posted:Interesting that you believe, against all historical evidence, that only free societies can have a high standard of living or develop economically. As another goon once told me "If you're going to just say things that I haven't said, could you at least do it in a Morgan Freeman voice?"
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Oct 20, 2016 16:07
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Non Serviam posted:As another goon once told me If you're not willing to stand by "Cuba is poor because of government repression and not being a free-market evangelist", what will you stand by? Do I just have to ask you to defend capitalism to make you run wailing into the arms of communism out of sheer cowardice?
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Oct 20, 2016 16:11
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Have you considered the possibility that nobody wants to talk to you?
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Oct 20, 2016 16:16
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Friendly Humour posted:Have you considered the possibility that nobody wants to talk to you? Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?
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Oct 20, 2016 16:17
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Brainiac Five posted:If you're not willing to stand by "Cuba is poor because of government repression and not being a free-market evangelist", what will you stand by? Do I just have to ask you to defend capitalism to make you run wailing into the arms of communism out of sheer cowardice? You are implying that I'm a Randian absolutist. That's simply not true. A free market system with the existence of a regulatory entity (i.e. the government) setting up the basic rules of the game is, without a doubt, the best way to ensure freedom and quality of life. We know this because that is, literally, the system used in every country that has a high standard of living. The system you are defending, on the other hand, has only been used in countries that have then crashed and burned.
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Oct 20, 2016 16:18
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ZearothK posted:Somalia was a so-called socialist country until it completely collapsed. Collapsed by CIA-backed groups like they tried in Angola. Sad!
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Oct 20, 2016 16:21
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TheLovablePlutonis posted:Collapsed by CIA-backed groups like they tried in Angola. Sad! It must be really hard to look at every single country that has adopted your model imploding under their own incompetence, and still say "nu-uh!". Also, as somebody else has pointed out, why aren't you joining any of the many armed guerrillas in South America, seeing that you criticize those who put down their arms?
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Oct 20, 2016 16:22
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A lot of communist, generally leftist or just plain sovereign countries got themselves messed up by CIA intervention during the Cold War. That's not exactly a controversial or undocumented fact.
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Oct 20, 2016 16:29
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Non Serviam posted:You are implying that I'm a Randian absolutist. That's simply not true. Rand has nothing to do with being obsessed with the free market. But insisting the USSR developed not one whit between 1918 and 1991 is certainly the sign of a free-market evangelist. So, anyways, the argument relies on implicitly claiming that Cuba was rich before the 26th July Movement, and has only become poor under the covenant with hell that is socialism. This is necessary in order to point to the rule of the Archdemon Castros as the cause of Cuba's poverty. You've also implicitly abandoned the claim that political repression is part of the cause, implying that a brutal police state that "kept its hands off the market" would of course be as prosperous as the USA, although you personally consider "freedom" important, etc.
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Oct 20, 2016 16:30
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"How dare you speak for Cubans!" cry people insisting Cubans want to go bankrupt due to healthcare expenses and hate their access to tertiary education.
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Oct 20, 2016 16:31
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^^ How do you feel about the dissidents that Cuba keeps imprisoning and torturing? how is their health care system?Brainiac Five posted:Rand has nothing to do with being obsessed with the free market. But insisting the USSR developed not one whit between 1918 and 1991 is certainly the sign of a free-market evangelist. The fact that Cuba is a tyrannical state is a bad thing, period. Regardless of economic effect of that. What I said was quote:Living in a tyrannical undemocratic government under economic policies that have never worked? No, of course, that's not the root cause of the problem. In general, unless a country has some sort of asset that offers a lot of profit (like oil, for example) investment will stay away from it if it is highly repressive. Not because of human right concerns on the part of the businesses, mind you, but simply because the kind of state that actively engages in repression of its citizens is the kind of state that will not hesitate to confiscate your assets, not follow court rulings or, of course, simply set up corrupt judicial systems. Additionally, the Cuban state has been extremely inefficient in the handling of its own economy, by deliberately limiting the access to a free market within Cuba. As the link I posted before showed, even Cuban politicians argue against the country's remarkably inefficient system. I hope this clarifies it.
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Oct 20, 2016 16:36
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Brainiac Five posted:"How dare you speak for Cubans!" cry people insisting Cubans want to go bankrupt due to healthcare expenses and hate their access to tertiary education. America has Internet porn. Checkmate, socialists.
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Oct 20, 2016 16:41
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Non Serviam posted:^^ How do you feel about the dissidents that Cuba keeps imprisoning and torturing? how is their health care system? Well, dude, the only people arguing that there's a necessary trade-off there are the people who want to murder Cubans with restricting their access to healthcare. Having a soul, I am thus immune to that nonsense argument. Who gives a poo poo about FDI? The USA heavily restricted FDI during the 19th century, Japan, South Korea, and Taiwan did so for the second half of the 20th. Countries that have been opened to FDI by Maxim guns or the IMF have remained impoverished. The lucky ones exist as extractionary states for the rich countries.
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Oct 20, 2016 16:45
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You really don't have a whit of self-awareness, do you? How am I even supposed to mock this. You honestly believe that it's ok for Cubans not to be allowed to speak out for themselves because smug self-righteous cunts like you can do that for them. And then you go around calling others imperialists for suggesting that maybe that might actually be a bad thing. Just... Goddamn man, stop approriating my satire as your actual position. It takes the fun out of everything.
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Oct 20, 2016 16:47
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Friendly Humour posted:You really don't have a whit of self-awareness, do you? How am I even supposed to mock this. You honestly believe that it's ok for Cubans not to be allowed to speak out for themselves because smug self-righteous cunts like you can do that for them. And then you go around calling others imperialists for suggesting that maybe that might actually be a bad thing. Just... Goddamn man, stop approriating my satire as your actual position. It takes the fun out of everything. Cubans should have internet access, unlike Finns. But the current state of affairs is such that the likeliest outcome of overthrowing M26 is losing everything good about Cuba's current government, and a high chance of it remaining repressive and brutal. Just like what happened with the USSR.
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Oct 20, 2016 16:52
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Friendly Humour posted:You really don't have a whit of self-awareness, do you? How am I even supposed to mock this. You honestly believe that it's ok for Cubans not to be allowed to speak out for themselves because smug self-righteous cunts like you can do that for them. And then you go around calling others imperialists for suggesting that maybe that might actually be a bad thing. Just... Goddamn man, stop approriating my satire as your actual position. It takes the fun out of everything. Clearly, Cubans speaking out against communism goes against the narrative.
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Oct 20, 2016 16:58
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Oh good, tjat's much better. Though it's still a bit hard to mock someone who thinks that a brutal and repressive tyranny should remain as it is "because it might get worse". I'm sure Pinochet would have been pretty happy with that reasoning.
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Oct 20, 2016 17:03
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Brainiac Five posted:Interesting that you believe, against all historical evidence, that only free societies can have a high standard of living or develop economically. Actually, Botswana has a pretty good standard of living and economic development, particularly by Sub-Saharan African standards, and has been one of the continent's few stories of sustained economic success (averaging sustained growth rates of 9% p.a. from the 1960s-90s - basically Asian Tiger levels). It did experience a bit of a slowdown in the 2000s, but has largely bounced back since then.
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Oct 20, 2016 17:06
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Friendly Humour posted:Cuba has a combined bandwidth of 300mb/s. Ah, they're on par with Australia. 
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Oct 20, 2016 17:10
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qnqnx posted:Clearly, Cubans speaking out against communism goes against the narrative. They're not true
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Oct 20, 2016 17:10
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Tigey posted:Actually, Botswana has a pretty good standard of living and economic development, particularly by Sub-Saharan African standards, and has been one of the continent's few stories of sustained economic success (averaging sustained growth rates of 9% p.a. from the 1960s-90s - basically Asian Tiger levels). Botswana is still a poor nation by global standards (and its development consists of being the financial sector of Subsaharan Africa, so a rosy outlook for Africa as a whole is going to be bad for Botswana in particular) because being economically and socially liberal doesn't make you rich.
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Oct 20, 2016 17:12
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Friendly Humour posted:Oh good, tjat's much better. Though it's still a bit hard to mock someone who thinks that a brutal and repressive tyranny should remain as it is "because it might get worse". I'm sure Pinochet would have been pretty happy with that reasoning. Well, heck, I don't think having more Putins is a good idea. I suppose the US might just produce a semi-functional Cuban democracy which merely massacres strikers and reserves healthcare and education for the rich former bureaucrats and army officers of the Castro government. Or, you know, hordes of Marines descending like locusts.
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Oct 20, 2016 17:16
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Brainiac Five posted:Well, heck, I don't think having more Putins is a good idea. I suppose the US might just produce a semi-functional Cuban democracy which merely massacres strikers and reserves healthcare and education for the rich former bureaucrats and army officers of the Castro government. Or, you know, hordes of Marines descending like locusts. Hmm, well I suppose it's possible for things to remain as they already are.
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Oct 20, 2016 17:25
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What the hell happened to this thread
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Oct 20, 2016 17:30
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nerdz posted:What the hell happened to this thread effectronica (braniac 5) decided it was time to stick it to Amerikkka.
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Oct 20, 2016 17:31
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ronya posted:I think it's instructive to compare how East Asia managed that consensus (especially given that it did not always start off with such stability, e.g., South Korea under Rhee was much more dysfunctional than it was under Park after the 1961 coup d'etat). Absolutely. For me, it primarily comes down to political incentives though. The external threat posed by the 'Red Menace' definitely provided an incentive for both political and economic elites in East Asian countries to compromise and reach a broad, if unwritten political consensus - namely that unless they promoted economic development to provide the promise of improved material conditions for the wider population (over the longer-term of course - there was much hardship and repression in the early years), they would face a serious political threat in the medium to long-term in the form of externally supported revolution. With their collective asses on the line, this actually incentivised the state and key economic elites to pursue economic policies which actually promoted sustainable economic development, rather than pursuing internal political ends. For example, many countries across the developing world also employed similar import-substitution policies, but rather than using them primarily to build up a nascent industrial base, they instead also used these public offices and industries as a means for dispensing patronage to reward supporters/buy off political opposition. Due to this political dimension, they found it much hard to discipline (through withdrawal of subsidies, etc) their inefficient domestic industries due to the political cost, and were unable to transition to competitive export-oriented industries. This was less of an issue in East Asia, whose governments were generally more willing to throw to the wolves industries that refused to adapt to market forces. Similarly, land reform was definitely able to proceed with far less political opposition in certain East Asian states than elsewhere, again, largely due to a lack of resistance from key elites (who were much weaker for the reasons you state). This was certainly not the case in Turkey, Pakistan, India and much of Latin America, whose rural/landowning elites were politically much stronger and more influential, and lacked any similar incentives to cooperate or compromise.
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Oct 20, 2016 17:32
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Quick, someone talk poo poo about Macri.
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Oct 20, 2016 17:36
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nerdz posted:What the hell happened to this thread Someone said they were disappointed with FARC for being willing to accept peace and advocated a continuation of war in service to their glorious socialist ideals, so long as they weren't personally put into any danger by it. It sort of snowballed out from there.
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Oct 20, 2016 17:37
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Squeegy posted:Quick, someone talk poo poo about Macri. He hasn't done enough to offset the destruction of the country done by his predecessor. Also, a big Mac is over 10 bucks. What the gently caress Macri?
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Oct 20, 2016 17:39
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